Latest Fans Forum 'minutes' released

[Guest firetotheworks]

When they're pleading poverty and get the violins out over how transfers are hard you know, players don't always want to come you know, the Premier League and Sky money is more complicated than you think, how everything is a challenge, how we can't invest in facilities because we're prioritising players, even though we already know that that also means not spending money on players, does no one think to bring up that there are 19 other clubs in the league that manage to buy and sell players just fine, with plenty of time to spare, and that there are what? 40ish club's that have spent more than us since Rafa came here?

 

I can only assume that it's been mentioned but isn't in the minutes, because it's such a glaring omission as a point that I can't really believe it hasn't been made.

[Shearergol]

The debt to Ashley never officially goes down. However, at certain points in the season (transfer windows) he does pay himself back to reduce the debt. Then when he decides the club need to outsource a new service to his business, he lends the club the money again, thus taking the debt level back to the “right” level.

 

That makes zero sense. Why would he need to loan the club money to outsource a function?

 

Anyway, as said many times before, the 'debt' to Ashley is meaningless as a number.

 

I’ll tell you why. The club pays sports direct for merchandise. Sports direct buy it because they get better discount than NUFC does.

 

Matt, your problem is you’re looking at the accounts expecting nothing to be hidden and nothing to be illegal. So, where’s the money gone?

[Shearergol]

Surely if the football club owes him x that is added onto the sale price at negotiation time if a buyer ever comes forward though.

 

Nope. The price would be the price.

 

If the club as a business is worth £300m and the debt is £150m, then his equity is worth £150m.

If the club is worth £150m then his debt is worth £150m and his equity is worth zero

If the club is worth £100m then his debt is only worth £100m and his equity has already been wiped out

 

 

 

Again, you’re talking business world, not Ashley world. Hence why his asking price is always £100m than what potential buyers value the club.

[Chris_R]

The "Transfers are hard" thing would wash if other clubs were having the same problems. They're not.

 

They also said things like "we were after players whose clubs wanted more than our transfer record" as if this is some wonderful act of generosity and drive to better the team, when A) that transfer record has stood for 13 years, including all 11 years of Ashley's reign and B) they still didn't manage to break it.

 

It's pathetic.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

[Sean]

Surely if the football club owes him x that is added onto the sale price at negotiation time if a buyer ever comes forward though.

 

Nope. The price would be the price.

 

If the club as a business is worth £300m and the debt is £150m, then his equity is worth £150m.

If the club is worth £150m then his debt is worth £150m and his equity is worth zero

If the club is worth £100m then his debt is only worth £100m and his equity has already been wiped out

 

After 11 years of Ashley you should realise by now he doesn't operate like a normal person. It'll be added on to the price no doubt. As will the cost of removing Sports Direct adverts, or buying the club shop back amongst god knows what else.

[Chris_R]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

 

I know that and agree 100% with your sentiment, it’s wrong, but not illegal, is all I’m saying.

[Sean]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

 

Yep, lots of businesses might do things that are in their own interests, in our case its working against the clubs interests.

[Shearergol]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

 

I know that and agree 100% with your sentiment, it’s wrong, but not illegal, is all I’m saying.

 

 

Hang on, we're currently under a tax investigation....

[Guest Howaythetoon]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

 

I know that and agree 100% with your sentiment, it’s wrong, but not illegal, is all I’m saying.

 

 

Hang on, we're currently under a tax investigation....

 

Doesn’t mean they will find anything illegal. I guarantee they won’t.

[Shearergol]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

 

I know that and agree 100% with your sentiment, it’s wrong, but not illegal, is all I’m saying.

 

 

Hang on, we're currently under a tax investigation....

 

Doesn’t mean they will find anything illegal. I guarantee they won’t.

 

I'm not convinced.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

 

I know that and agree 100% with your sentiment, it’s wrong, but not illegal, is all I’m saying.

 

 

Hang on, we're currently under a tax investigation....

 

Doesn’t mean they will find anything illegal. I guarantee they won’t.

 

I'm not convinced.

 

If they had anything concrete they would have been done and dusted by now. They may find some ‘irregularities’ but nothing illegal enough to seriously damage the club in a legal sense.

[Guest neesy111]

There is nothing illegal in NUFC accounts, although that’s not to say there is nothing wrong with some things or that there are not things that aren’t quite right. Any business big or small massages figures and NUFC is no different.

I don't care about any of that, minimising their tax exposure, whatever. My problem is not that they're doing a lot of illegal things, but that they're doing a lot of things which simply are not in the interests of NUFC but instead set up to favour Sports Direct.

 

I know that and agree 100% with your sentiment, it’s wrong, but not illegal, is all I’m saying.

 

 

Hang on, we're currently under a tax investigation....

 

Doesn’t mean they will find anything illegal. I guarantee they won’t.

 

I'm not convinced.

 

If they had anything concrete they would have been done and dusted by now. They may find some ‘irregularities’ but nothing illegal enough to seriously damage the club in a legal sense.

 

Not really, tax investigations etc can last up to years.  Pure speculation at this stage to what might happen.

[Sean]

I particularly like this bit:

 

AC: “The club is facing a maelstrom of adverse publicity in relation to its finances and what it isn’t spending. What is the answer to that?”

The club agreed that it was important to engage in further communications around its finances, which is an area in which there is a great deal of confusion and misinformation.

The club highlighted articles in the Chronicle, Mirror, Mail and Independent that had followed a lengthy and detailed briefing with the managing director, after it published its latest accounts.

The club’s view was that these articles were a good assessment of the club’s finances at that time and the club is committed to getting more content of this nature out to supporters.

 

Committed to getting more propaganda out in the media...at least they're being honest about it now eh 

 

Also an admission that they can't be fucked doing anything with the academy:

 

PL: “In recent times, owners have spoken about bringing more players through the Academy system.”

The club believes the debate around Academies is intensifying. There is a belief that it is becoming more and more difficult to bring through young talent, with managers generally reluctant to call on Academy players in the Premier League. The club also believes the current rules make it easier for the big five or six teams in the country to secure the best players from all other Academy systems.

[Shearergol]

I particularly like this bit:

 

AC: “The club is facing a maelstrom of adverse publicity in relation to its finances and what it isn’t spending. What is the answer to that?”

The club agreed that it was important to engage in further communications around its finances, which is an area in which there is a great deal of confusion and misinformation.

The club highlighted articles in the Chronicle, Mirror, Mail and Independent that had followed a lengthy and detailed briefing with the managing director, after it published its latest accounts.

The club’s view was that these articles were a good assessment of the club’s finances at that time and the club is committed to getting more content of this nature out to supporters.

 

Committed to getting more propaganda out in the media...at least they're being honest about it now eh 

 

We're all protesting because we don't really understand how difficult it is to run a football club. It's hard. really hard.

[Matt]

I’ll tell you why. The club pays sports direct for merchandise. Sports direct buy it because they get better discount than NUFC does.

 

Wouldn't the club be buying it anyway?

 

Anyway, even if the 'normal commercial terms' mentioned in the last annual accounts are massively skewed in favour of SD, the net purchases from Ashley-linked companies was £600k.

 

Matt, your problem is you’re looking at the accounts expecting nothing to be hidden and nothing to be illegal. So, where’s the money gone?

 

There are enough stories around of MA's sharp practices to know what kind of operator he is. But if he wants cash out of NUFC so he can buy a new villa or a chunk of a high-street retailer, he can just take it, which by the sounds of it is exactly what he's done this summer. There is no need to resort to his little book of underhand tricks.

 

I did a very rough calculation a while back and reckoned we would have about £40-45m kicking about spare after the summer's (lack of) activity. That didn't take into account increases in STs though, IIRC, so maybe a bit more. Problem is we sit on the accounts for so long by the time they are published they are no longer relevant.

[Matt]

Makes you wonder exactly what they found, but hopefully it’s a massive ticking time bomb.

 

HMRC couldn't even prosecute Harry Redknapp after he claimed to be illiterate. We'd have to have really screwed up.

[Shearergol]

I’ll tell you why. The club pays sports direct for merchandise. Sports direct buy it because they get better discount than NUFC does.

 

Wouldn't the club be buying it anyway?

 

Anyway, even if the 'normal commercial terms' mentioned in the last annual accounts are massively skewed in favour of SD, the net purchases from Ashley-linked companies was £600k.

 

Matt, your problem is you’re looking at the accounts expecting nothing to be hidden and nothing to be illegal. So, where’s the money gone?

 

There are enough stories around of MA's sharp practices to know what kind of operator he is. But if he wants cash out of NUFC so he can buy a new villa or a chunk of a high-street retailer, he can just take it, which by the sounds of it is exactly what he's done this summer. There is no need to resort to his little book of underhand tricks.

 

I did a very rough calculation a while back and reckoned we would have about £40-45m kicking about spare after the summer's (lack of) activity. That didn't take into account increases in STs though, IIRC, so maybe a bit more. Problem is we sit on the accounts for so long by the time they are published they are no longer relevant.

 

They are always relevant, people just forget them. Hence why the argument for transfer fees coming in later gets ignored.

 

Will the incoming cash from Liverpool and spurs ever show?

 

11 years of this bullshit and it’s always “see what the next accounts show”.

 

The debt to Ashley never decreases, but little lee says that it changes throughout the season. Why is that? How does it always go back to the same bottom line number?

 

[Dave]

https://www.themag.co.uk/2018/10/why-newcastle-united-fans-forum-is-a-complete-sham-exercise-from-start-to-finish/

What should infuriate any Newcastle fan though, is that despite having all this money available, cash flow might have subsequently become an issue of the club’s own making.  That the money we had and didn’t spend in the summer, might not be there in January.  Not because we’re waiting on payments, but because we chose  to repay  Mike Ashley some of his loans – “The amount owed to the owner was disclosed in last accounts (£144m) and the figure is currently less than that.”

 

How do I know this repayment was made after the transfer window closed and not before?  Because on 7th August Mike Ashley wrote to MP Jeremy Wright and stated “As owner of Newcastle United, I have provided the club with interest-free loans, the outstanding balance of which as at today’s date is £144 million.”

 

So, between 7th August and 24th September some of the loan to Mike Ashley was repaid.

 

At a time when the manager is desperate for a few quality signings, Newcastle have conceivably created a cash flow shortage of their own making going into the January window. We’re waiting on future Premier League payments and transfer instalments to replenish funds we could have spent on the squad or training facilities, had Ashley not took them for himself.

 

House of Fraser bought by Sports Direct for £90m

 

[Odear]

I called that during the summer and got called a mentalist for even suggesting such a diabolical move.

 

Where’s the money gone? It bought House of Fraser.

 

Here’s a question, when the club says Mike Ashley loaned it money. Where is the record of this kept? How do we know he actually did this?

[tgarve]

I called that during the summer and got called a mentalist for even suggesting such a diabolical move.

 

Where’s the money gone? It bought House of Fraser.

 

Here’s a question, when the club says Mike Ashley loaned it money. Where is the record of this kept? How do we know he actually did this?

 

Most banking is tracked now. Legally has to be

[Odear]

Yeah but who’s checking? He deliberately sets his companies up with hundreds of smaller entities so that it’s virtually impossible to make sense of it.

 

I take nothing the club says at face value any more.

[Raconteur]

I called that during the summer and got called a mentalist for even suggesting such a diabolical move.

 

Where’s the money gone? It bought House of Fraser.

 

Here’s a question, when the club says Mike Ashley loaned it money. Where is the record of this kept? How do we know he actually did this?

 

Most banking is tracked now. Legally has to be

 

That legal requirement doesn’t extend to reporting it publically. As a private company, they have to report very little (as we well know). A public audit would expose all sorts of dubious deals, but there is no requirement to tell anyone. And who would have the authority and/or will to order such an investigation? No one, because although it’s dodgy as fuck, it’s all legally well above board.

[Guest chopey]

I'm getting so sick of this now, this bloke has obviously taken millions out of the club probably much more than he gave us in the first place and there's fuck all we can do about it apart from keep turning up and give him more.