Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[TRon]

1 minute ago, HTT II said:

I meant Harry Potter, they need some wizardry to sort their mess out!

 

Yeah he might be more up for it, sounds like they've already got a Dobbie and @1878 seems to rate him. 

[GWN]

11 minutes ago, 1878 said:

ManDoon - no offence but I don't think you know enough about Everton to be wading in like this 

RE: Brands - he had a mixed record of signings but there were some good ones like Digne, Richarlison, Mina, Godfrey, Doucoure, Branthwaite, Nkounkou and Gomes (before Son crocked him at least). It's well known that Moshiri made the managerial appointments and that some of the signings weren't by Brands. James and Allan were demanded by Ancelotti for instance. Iwobi was a deadline day Moshiri panic buy of a player represented by one of his super agent 'mates' after failing to sign Zaha. El Ghazi is apparently another Moshiri signing from an agent he has links with.

 

The general point about Brands is that Benitez charged in like a bull in a china shop instead of trying to work together and provide a bit of stability for the club. It is not the way to go about things and has left us with no continuity now that Benitez has been sacked. Newcastle are supposed to be going down the DOF route from what I've read, so I don't see how that could work with Rafa.

 

RE: Dobbin - going off about this seems a bit odd, but I assume you haven't seen how bad Rondon is these days. Dobbin has scored 1 goal in 3 games as a wide forward in the U23's this season, yes. I watched the U23 game he scored in vs Brighton and he was a cut above everybody else on the pitch. He's showed flashes in limited PL time and set youth goal scoring records when he used to play as a central striker. I'm not saying he is the finished article or is going to be world class, but he can offer a hell of a lot more than the corpse of Rondon. Simms would be the more like for like replacement for Rondon as a target man. Check out some of the goals he scored for Blackpool last year. It's only League One but there were some belters.

 

RE: the crowd reaction - I've got a season ticket at Goodison, have you? I said he got a fair crack after the appointment. Those banners were pre-appointment and yeah, were out of order. When I turned up to the first game of the season I wondered whether they would even formally introduce him to the crowd and if so, feared for the reaction a bit. They introduced him to warm applause. He only lost the crowd much later due to his own shit performance.
 

 

This guy sees it for it was , his opinion , like it .Sad 

[Kid Icarus]

15 minutes ago, 1878 said:

ManDoon - no offence but I don't think you know enough about Everton to be wading in like this 

RE: Brands - he had a mixed record of signings but there were some good ones like Digne, Richarlison, Mina, Godfrey, Doucoure, Branthwaite, Nkounkou and Gomes (before Son crocked him at least). It's well known that Moshiri made the managerial appointments and that some of the signings weren't by Brands. James and Allan were demanded by Ancelotti for instance. Iwobi was a deadline day Moshiri panic buy of a player represented by one of his super agent 'mates' after failing to sign Zaha. El Ghazi is apparently another Moshiri signing from an agent he has links with.

 

The general point about Brands is that Benitez charged in like a bull in a china shop instead of trying to work together and provide a bit of stability for the club. It is not the way to go about things and has left us with no continuity now that Benitez has been sacked. Newcastle are supposed to be going down the DOF route from what I've read, so I don't see how that could work with Rafa.

 

RE: Dobbin - going off about this seems a bit odd, but I assume you haven't seen how bad Rondon is these days. Dobbin has scored 1 goal in 3 games as a wide forward in the U23's this season, yes. I watched the U23 game he scored in vs Brighton and he was a cut above everybody else on the pitch. He's showed flashes in limited PL time and set youth goal scoring records when he used to play as a central striker. I'm not saying he is the finished article or is going to be world class, but he can offer a hell of a lot more than the corpse of Rondon. Simms would be the more like for like replacement for Rondon as a target man. Check out some of the goals he scored for Blackpool last year. It's only League One but there were some belters.

 

RE: the crowd reaction - I've got a season ticket at Goodison, have you? I said he got a fair crack after the appointment. Those banners were pre-appointment and yeah, were out of order. When I turned up to the first game of the season I wondered whether they would even formally introduce him to the crowd and if so, feared for the reaction a bit. They introduced him to warm applause. He only lost the crowd much later due to his own shit performance.
 

Good explanation and insight ?

[Guest HTT II]

It’s a high risk game to play youngsters in most situations unless they are obviously special, especially when you as a manager are under fire from the stands/media to get instant results and good performances, Rafa used young players at NUFC really well and it’s easy to say well throw a kid on, knowing that if that young kid doesn’t instantly perform or look the part straight away, the pressures gets amped up not just on the manager, but the player himself.

[Dandy Man]

Current version of Rondon at Everton does make Jonjo Shelvey look like a whippet tbf

[Guest HTT II]

12 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

It's without doubt my most hated thing in football. 'Throw the kids in they could do a better job!!!" = People who have watched one game or YT clips of U23 games. The step up is MASSIVE.

Aye again unless the are really special like a Rooney which is rare as hens teeth, it can be very damaging to their career, game and especially their confidence. That’s why we need to start building good relationships with clubs in other countries and lower down the leagues to send our young players to to get some less pressurised game time and to develop. You just know with Longstaff for example Rafa was working with him for a good time behind the scenes to get him ready for first-team football and it didn’t just stop at well you’ve made you debut now son, it’s all down to you from now on. 

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, ManDoon said:

Yeah it’s almost a different sport, you’ll have seen it for yourself. I would be wanting a player to be out on loan, and the bare minimum before a PL starting role. You could destroy their career and the chances are they aren’t ready. This argument was made for Sorensen, and guess what he was right.

 

The only players  I’ve seen once at U23 and been like “yeah” are Callum O Hare, and Jacob Ramsey. It’s so rare. 

I mean you can’t beat developing through game time, but it has to be in the right environment, I see it even at under 8/9 level kids playing for academies looking absolute lost, but bossing it on a Sunday for their Sunday team because they are playing at level that is better for them even at times a higher level than at an academy, but because they are in a less pressurised environment and know their every move isn’t being scrutinised or if they don’t perform their career is on the line or potential career. It’s a huge step up from academy football to under 23 and even bigger to Premier League, look at Pep with Foden, he has handled him brilliantly. 

[Guest HTT II]

Now look at the Longstaffs, aye maybe they aren’t all that, but compare and contrast Rafa’s way/handling of them to Bruce’s…

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

5 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Yeah and pep took a lot of stick for that iirc. Young players need loans, the physical step up to even league 1 is crazy. They often just get bullied out of games. I’m very pro loan. I don’t think one goal warrants a start in the PL, and I don’t think it’s fair to blame rafa for that 

He did, Southgate did too. It’s easy to clamour for a wonder kid to get some game time, but even then it can backfire. I often thought Wenger handled Walcott well when he first joined Arsenal and Spurs with Bale too, NUFC at the time if we signed them would have thrown them in at the deep end and you have to also factor in the demands of PL football on a young developing body and mind and how that can lead to injuries and them ending up back down the food chain with the under 23s training with them and the demoralising effect that can have on them. Plus I think playing lower down can be a great reality check for a young gifted player and make them appreciate the work needed just to even play at that level. Look at Gateshead, half were at academies from my last recollection and some of them are looking top players albeit for that level.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

We sent Longstaff to Aberdeen at what age 23/24 or something? He should have been out on loan years ago and if he didn’t develop into a PL player, he’d have probably be racking up 150 + games as a pro at a decent level. Which he may well do well to now do. 

[Chicken Dancer]

8 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Yeah and pep took a lot of stick for that iirc.

 

To be fair, wasn't the stick Pep took directly in relation to Foden? Think Pep's argument was he's better off around first-team training, and it looks to be correct in this instance. I am pro-loan too though, I suppose Foden is once in a generation sort of talent.

[GWN]

42 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

No idea what this is meant to mean TBH

 

it wasn’t meant for you stop over thinking it kid 

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

To be fair, wasn't the stick Pep took directly in relation to Foden? Think Pep's argument was he's better off around first-team training, and it looks to be correct in this instance. I am pro-loan too though, I suppose Foden is once in a generation sort of talent.

There are more than one way to transition in a young player, Pep got it spot on with Foden, I think he wouldn’t have been averse to sending him out on loan, but it’s Pep, if he wants you around for first-team training, he’s trying to develop you personally in mind with his first-team plans eventually. 

[Deuce]

Taking a national team job might not be a terrible idea for Rafa at this point. 

[Wild Geese]

3 hours ago, 1878 said:

Hi all. Long time, no post!

To give an Everton perspective on Benitez - although there are some wider problems with the ownership, it's impossible to overstate what an incredibly bad job Rafa did here and how much damage he's been allowed to cause to the structure of the club in such a short time.

 

Although the fans were against his appointment, he got a very fair crack of the whip once he was actually in the job. The fans being against him was overblown by the media. It's only after a horrendous run of results and performances that the crowd turned on him.

• DOF - instead of trying to work with Marcel Brands, he made it his mission from day one to oust him, starting by cutting him out of all summer recruitment. This culminated in Brands resigning from the board and leaving the club during the season.
   
• Scouting - after ousting Brands, he fired the chief scout and head recruitment person that had been appointed by him. As far as I know, they have not been replaced, with Rafa just doing his own thing in the January window. This means that after sacking Benitez we basically don't have a recruitment department.
   
• Medical - he fired Danny Donachie, the long serving head of medical, who was very popular with the players, citing too many set backs in injury recovery. After appointing his own people, DCL promptly had an injury set back that kept him out for over a month longer and Yerry Mina broke down 15 mins into his first game back. Presumably his medical people will all go with him and we'll have to bring back Donachie et al or hire new staff.
   
• Coaching - for me, the one upside of the appointment was that he had a reputation for being a great coach who had his teams organised, well drilled and disciplined, especially defensively. What we actually got was a complete shambles. The defence has been all over the place from the first game of the season until Saturday's nadir at Norwich. There was never any shape to the team and they regularly looked lost on the pitch.
   
• Tactics - I knew from his time at Liverpool and yourselves that Benitez was quite negative, but he really took it beyond a joke here. I can't think of a single game this season where, no matter how poor the opposition, we didn't start the game by conceding all impetus to them even at home. I think he recently set some sort of record for consecutive games conceding the first goal.
   
• Formations - he often played a negative 5 at the back system, including against lower league opposition in the cup. The main failing however, was a weird insistence on playing a two man central midfield week in, week out, which got overrun by opposition midfield threes every time and lost us game after game. I don't think midfield pairs work generally in football these days, but especially not when Doucoure aside, there's a severe lack of pace available in central midfield (Allan, Davies, Gomes). Him apparently seeing Sean Longstaff as the answer to this was terrifying.
   
• Results - 1 win and 6 points in his last 13 says it all. Ok the squad isn't great, but it's nowhere near 1 in 13 bad. Last season, we finished top half and could still qualify for Europe on the final day. Mike Walker is widely regarded as the worst EFC manager of all time but before his sacking, he managed 1 win and 7 points in 13 games. Benitez also went out of the cup to QPR and suffered the heaviest home derby defeat for 40 years when he played his suicidal midfield two against Liverpool's three. 
   
• Injuries - this was Rafa's constant excuse, and true enough, at one point we had a few key players out at the same time. However, apart from DCL, there were spells were he had pretty much everybody else available and we saw no improvement. The squad was fully fit vs Norwich and he served up the worst result of the season.
   
• Rondon - fair enough, sign him on a free due to limited summer budget/FFP and working with him successfully in the past. But once it became very clear that the guy was overweight, unfit and couldn't run or even win a header anymore, just admit your mistake and drop him. Starting him was literally like playing 10 vs 11 every week. Do not persist with the guy for the entire season to the point where he becomes a lightning rod for fan frustration and starts getting booed onto the pitch by his own supporters.
   
• Youth - the club have got two good young strikers, Lewis Dobbin and Ellis Simms (who impressed on loan at Blackpool last season). He refused to give them a chance ahead of Rondon in DCL's absence until the recent Chelsea game, when he was forced to play them and young centre back Jarrad Branthwaite due to Covid. They all acquitted themselves very well in a battling performance to steal a draw, Branthwaite scoring the winner. They've not had a look in since. Dobbin is out of contract at the end of the season and has a host of clubs after him. Sacking Benitez will hopefully convince him to sign a new deal, because he was a cert to leave otherwise.
   
• Left Back - aside from the well documented petty fallout with Digne, he also sent away our only other recognised left back Niels Nkounkou on loan to Belgium before the season started. This kid looked like a great prospect playing in the cups under Ancelotti last season, especially attacking-wise. With Digne frozen out, we had to play a centre back (Godfrey) and a finished right back (Coleman) out of position. When the January window opened he spent £20m on Mykolenko to replace Digne and in the two games so far vs Hull and Norwich, he looks absolutely miles off being a Premier League level player. A total mess entirely of Benitez's own making.
   
• Right Back - the club have been desperate to replace Coleman for a couple of years and Rafa finally signs a good prospect in Nathan Patterson for £12m this month. Well done! However since then, Coleman and Jonjoe Kenny have started the games and even when dragged off for playing horribly, Benitez still wouldn't put Patterson in, instead moving Godfrey there. Pretty bizarre stuff.
   
• Work Environment - since the sacking, it's been said that the atmosphere at the training ground has been horrendous all season and that the majority of players are relieved to see him go. Notable that only Andros Townsend (who obviously had a pre-existing relationship with him) has made a social media post about Benitez since the news broke.

 

Things I would give him credit for:

 

• Demari Gray - one of the shining lights this season and an absolute bargain at £1.7m. Seems to have unlocked his potential. Struggling to think of anything else positive.

 

In my opinion, Benitez is very much yesterday's man and is finished at the top level. Throw in the fact that he could start a fight in an empty room and no Premier League club should touch him with a barge pole. Eddie Howe has been linked with the Everton job a lot over the years and I've never been keen on him tbh, but I'd have swapped him for Benitez in a heartbeat. I think your fans need to take off the rose tinted specs with Benitez, look at the reality of his performance at Everton (and China before that) and forget about the idea of him coming back to save the day. You're much better off sticking with Howe.

 

Your Eddie Howe eh ?

[Yorkie]

Forum nerd stuff but it's nice to see so much engagement. Nearly 350 votes on the poll, pretty cool. 

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, Tomato Deuce said:

Taking a national team job might not be a terrible idea for Rafa at this point. 

I’m sure he would try and make it work, but his methods are every day training ground repetition drills to fully work…

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, Yorkie said:

Forum nerd stuff but it's nice to see so much engagement. Nearly 350 votes on the poll, pretty cool. 

FUCKING GEEK

 

Aye it’s great tbh, loving it!

[Happinesstan]

4 hours ago, WillingtonMag said:

Would like to think with the investment in the team we might at some point in the future be able to play some good attacking entertaining football. That rules Rafa out for me.

Give Rafa the players he needs and you see a different game altogether.

[Guest HTT II]

I voted no, again I love the man and rate him highly, he’d keep us up, but we’ve made our bed and need to lie in it with Howe and I do feel Rafa isn’t a long-term solution at all and could do with a break from football, if only for his health and well being. We had him, loved him, and will never lose him because of how special he means to us all. I’d hate for him to tarnish his legacy/reputation here, that would probably break me as a fan more than relegation, that’s how much he meant to me and his time here. If it wasn’t for him, me and NUFC would be divorced for good, takeover or not.

[nufcjb]

Rafa missed his chance to join us to be honest. Not when he decided to join Everton. But when we sacked Bruce and went for him. He stayed blindly loyal to them and his principles when was already obvious it was not working and going to get worse. Yes it would have seem he was after money but he started a project here and rejoining us then would have made sense like he was back to finish the job. Sadly, that train has passed for him and us.

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, nufcjb said:

Rafa missed his chance to join us to be honest. Not when he decided to join Everton. But when we sacked Bruce and went for him. He stayed blindly loyal to them and his principles when was already obvious it was not working and going to get worse. Yes it would have seem he was after money but he started a project here and rejoining us then would have made sense like he was back to finish the job. Sadly, that train has passed for him and us.

He was never going to just jump ship back to us, he usually doesn’t break contracts and even despite the daft ness of his move there, he would have had full confidence in his ability and that of his staff he’d turn it around.

[Chicken Dancer]

7 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I think a lot of people thought he should leave. Pep treated him with kid gloves, which was the exact right thing to do. Used him very sparingly and now is reaping the rewards. And yeah agree with with both your points.

 

Me included! I thought he was going to stifle his career. It's almost as if Pep Guardiola with his 30 trophies as a coach knows more than me.

[Guest HTT II]

A lot does depend on the young player’s mentality too, I would imagine Foden would have thought I’d rather train with Pep and the stars than go out on loan as I’m gonna prove my worth and get into that team. Even some not so talented kids can make a breakthrough and do relatively well based on being mentally strong, determined and willing to do whatever it takes.

 

Most aren’t, however, it’s a fragile environment from academy upto under 23 level for most, even the very talented. So many factors are ignored or simply brushed aside at that level where well if you’re at say LFC at 23, why are you not getting many games or why have you not left or why if you’ve been out on loan you didn’t cut it.
 

I’m sure Kane looked dross when he went out on loan, Carroll too. Again for me, it’s about finding the right environment/being in the right environment. Even for established first-teamers, look at us under Rafa, Lascelles become Captain and suddenly transformed as a player, conversely Longstaff has regressed massively (as they all have) once he left, mostly it’s down to talent either way, but having the right mentality and determination and work ethic goes a long way. Have both and you can’t fail unless injuries, fitness etc.

 

Henderson at LFC for example. People at SAFC said there were more talented kids, but many knew from day one he’d make it and when he joined Liverpool, he’d prove himself and he has. He’s a shining light fro any talented NE kid coming through at academies for me.

 

Football is a simple game to play, but it’s a very complicated business to get into, stay in and become one of the best or better than others. Unless you’re Steve Bruce of course, being shit at your job gets you a 1000 games, an absolute joke. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Yeah I probably posted the same about it I can't remmeber, he played it perfectly though.  I wish he would loan us Cole Palmer

He looks a player too!