Coffee_Johnny Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Just now, TheBrownBottle said: The problem remains that football doesn’t naturally lend itself to this sort of detailed data-crunching. It is far too open to interpretation in terms of analysis. Most of it is just Charles Hughes nonsense on steroids, and English football is only just crawling out from under his shadow. Too many people using stats the way a drunk uses a lamppost, for support instead of illumination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huss9 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, bobbydazzla said: I can't enjoy us winning these days because I find myself worrying if our xG is poor and Bruno's heat map shows he was playing as a false 8, pivoting with a 6 and his pass accuracy was lower than anticipated given the %'s achieved by his peer group from all top flight clubs across Europe I know we won at Fulham, but in my opinion most of the stats show it was technically a loss. So I didn't celebrate and spent all day yesterday poring over my spreadsheets with a furrowed brow. they could have scored 5 goals dont you know.... if they'd have had a good striker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghandis Flip-Flop Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 2 hours ago, Jagten said: I think Joelinton is one of the worst starting PL central midfielders when it comes to passing, yes. How much football do you actually watch to make that assertion? I can honestly say that at least 50% of the midfielders currently plying their trade in the PL are worse than him. But that’s just my eyeball test. It’s worth noting that metrics much like the statistics they’re based on can be manipulated to say pretty much whatever the compiler wants them to highlight. I'd recommend you go back and watch him when he's properly fit, there’s lots of quick intricate passing particularly with Bruno and Willock, often receiving the ball whilst under significant pressure and he generally retains possession. I'm not saying it’s impossible to improve on him, but I’d argue he isn’t the main issue which requires upgrading in our midfield. In fact when everyone is fit, I’d argue our midfield is Ok, we need better numbers from our wide forwards. The drop off from Gordon this season has been massive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 42 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: The problem remains that football doesn’t naturally lend itself to this sort of detailed data-crunching. It is far too open to interpretation in terms of analysis. Most of it is just Charles Hughes nonsense on steroids, and English football is only just crawling out from under his shadow. It's hard, for sure, but I don't agree with this. That said, it certainly doesn't lend itself well to the gen pop analysing a bunch of closed-source proprietary metrics. Inferring things like xG and its derivatives requires a model, which requires assumptions and skill. These are PhD-level questions, and not ones most people can answer, so I understand the frustration when they are beyond even most advocates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 39 minutes ago, Jagten said: It's hard, for sure, but I don't agree with this. That said, it certainly doesn't lend itself well to the gen pop analysing a bunch of closed-source proprietary metrics. Inferring things like xG and its derivatives requires a model, which requires assumptions and skill. These are PhD-level questions, and not ones most people can answer, so I understand the frustration when they are beyond even most advocates. I wouldn’t argue that. But it’s tiresome reading the Twitter stat brigade using it to build cases for or against players. No issues with someone who actually deals in statistical analysis for a living moonlighting in football Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbydazzla Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) The football world needs to be less like Lawrence Logic and more like Billy The Fish Edited January 29 by bobbydazzla Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 15 hours ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said: How much football do you actually watch to make that assertion? I can honestly say that at least 50% of the midfielders currently plying their trade in the PL are worse than him. But that’s just my eyeball test. It’s worth noting that metrics much like the statistics they’re based on can be manipulated to say pretty much whatever the compiler wants them to highlight. I'd recommend you go back and watch him when he's properly fit, there’s lots of quick intricate passing particularly with Bruno and Willock, often receiving the ball whilst under significant pressure and he generally retains possession. I'm not saying it’s impossible to improve on him, but I’d argue he isn’t the main issue which requires upgrading in our midfield. In fact when everyone is fit, I’d argue our midfield is Ok, we need better numbers from our wide forwards. The drop off from Gordon this season has been massive. His close control is a lot better than he gets credit for mind. I've always liked him as a player for that reason, but if we are trying to reach elite level, he's not that. Unfortunately he's one of our saleable assets so if we want to keep progressing I could see him getting sold in the summer with only a year left on his contract. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 22 hours ago, Jagten said: Passing % isn’t a good way to evaluate this. Generally, you need some model of his passing “value”. For example, Statsbomb use their “On Ball Value” model (OBV), which aims to describe the downstream xG delta arising from an action (in this case, whenever Joelinton passes the ball). Ignoring the Onana overlay, his passing OBV is close to the worst in the league Kind of confused why you're only looking at his passing contributions. He's obviously not De Bruyne. Despite the fact he's a negative passer and an average dribbler, his OBV is 94th percentile largely because his defensive action OBV is 99th percentile. He offers something you will not find just about anywhere else. And per Statsbomb, defensive action OBV doesn't just mean he's cleaning things up in our half of the pitch: "some defensive actions higher up the field could add value by making their team more likely to score, and the player will be credited as such." I think these stats are quite representative of who Joelinton is and why he's been so important for us. The perfect player does not exist and we're unlikely to get players without flaws, so in that case give me the one who is elite at something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee_Johnny Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Good words. It’s all all the blend @timeEd32 and he’s been an important ingredient in some of our best performances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 ...not quite as dramatic as the takes we heard a couple of weeks back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 19 minutes ago, The Prophet said: ...not quite as dramatic as the takes we heard a couple of weeks back. Surely ‘give him what he wants’ should be ‘give him what he deserves’. Depends what he’s after earning. It isn’t an infinite pot of cash Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I'm all for giving Joelinton infinite cash tbh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 10 minutes ago, Tiresias said: I'm all for giving Joelinton infinite cash tbh Just as long as you’re the one giving him it and not the club I’m ok with that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 33 minutes ago, Tiresias said: I'm all for giving Joelinton infinite cash tbh we could, and should, do better Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee_Johnny Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I love Big Joe. I think his time here may be done. Broke through to ‘noticeably good’ levels in the PL, probably not going to go beyond that. Hope I am wrong, but there’s a whiff of believing the (best) headlines and overplaying his hand. Be delighted if he stays. Wouldn’t bend over backwards, contractually, to keep him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Coffee_Johnny said: I love Big Joe. I think his time here may be done. Broke through to ‘noticeably good’ levels in the PL, probably not going to go beyond that. Hope I am wrong, but there’s a whiff of believing the (best) headlines and overplaying his hand. Be delighted if he stays. Wouldn’t bend over backwards, contractually, to keep him. Yeah, agreed. It is worth remembering that we bought him as a centre forward, and he’s on a PL centre forward’s wage - he isn’t badly remunerated at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelinton7 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Coffee_Johnny said: I love Big Joe. I think his time here may be done. Broke through to ‘noticeably good’ levels in the PL, probably not going to go beyond that. Hope I am wrong, but there’s a whiff of believing the (best) headlines and overplaying his hand. Be delighted if he stays. Wouldn’t bend over backwards, contractually, to keep him. Sorry but this bonkers. He’s an unstoppable powerhouse, and he’s indispensable. I believe we beat Chelsea (cup) with him on the pitch as well as Luton. I for one will not countenance him leaving, he’s nowhere near done. Honestly I’ll be devastated if he leaves. At the end of a season where he was finally recognised for Selecao we’re gonna’ say goodbye? No way. He runs through brick walls and then laughs at the wall, he dies for the shirt out there. Plus he looks cool as fuck in the retro gear, is Bruno’s best mate and is a wonderful guy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 He wants parity with Bruno, which is £160k a week, about double his current wage. Whether or not he's worth that is a matter of opinion. If we were to sell him in the summer we'd pretty much get what we paid for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1tche Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 unless we're getting in and around the 50-60mil range we should be keeping him. He has the odd off game, but never really looks out of place in the game against the best teams when we play them. What he does in quite unique, if we want someone that also adds finesse, consistent passing and shooting, then you're talking Veira/Yaya Toure levels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 9 hours ago, Joelinton7 said: Sorry but this bonkers. He’s an unstoppable powerhouse, and he’s indispensable. I believe we beat Chelsea (cup) with him on the pitch as well as Luton. I for one will not countenance him leaving, he’s nowhere near done. Honestly I’ll be devastated if he leaves. At the end of a season where he was finally recognised for Selecao we’re gonna’ say goodbye? No way. He runs through brick walls and then laughs at the wall, he dies for the shirt out there. Plus he looks cool as fuck in the retro gear, is Bruno’s best mate and is a wonderful guy. *looks at username* Yeah, not sure you’re unbiased here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Zaius Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 I really want him to stay. Probably one of my favourite players. I think we're going to miss him big time for the rest of the season. He's not worth as much as Bruno though. The club have to do what they can to keep wages in check. Hopefully theyll come to an agreement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiston Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 Don't think anyone would pay £40m+ for him and he's worth far more to us than that. Should be doing what we can to keep him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 6 minutes ago, M1tche said: unless we're getting in and around the 50-60mil range we should be keeping him. He has the odd off game, but never really looks out of place in the game against the best teams when we play them. What he does in quite unique, if we want someone that also adds finesse, consistent passing and shooting, then you're talking Veira/Yaya Toure levels. He doesn’t play the same role as Vieira / Yaya Toure. He’s a big unit who plays wide left or left sided attacking midfielder. We might get our money back if he was sold Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 I love the bloke personally, but ultimately my emotional attachment is to NUFC. He’s in the ‘happy if he stays, shrug of shoulders if he goes (provided it’s for good money)’ category for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 Love him to stay, i think he would be a big miss for us and im not sure we could replace him as I think what he gives us he is pretty unique in the premier league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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