Allan Saint-Maximin (now playing for Fenerbahce, on loan from Al-Ahli)

[Heron]

2 minutes ago, alexf said:

@HeronIt's just different when it comes to talented players. Take Messi as the example of maybe the best ever, he regularly loses the ball statistically more than most back in his prime, but you forgive it because you know he is capable or scoring the winning goal etc. 

 

Longstaff, if he's the example you wana give the other way, is frustrating because he's possibly playing at his maximum or ceiling. So when he's constantly missing chances like recently you kind assume that's just his standard and he's not magically going to be able to create something. 

 

ASM on the flip side has proven many times that he can create moments of unbelievable individual quality so if he's not at his best, you still know in the back of your mind that he's still capable of a special moment.

 

However he's also a player that has struggled with injuries and fitness and therefore game sharpness and is trying to adjust to the managers style. 

 

I will agree with you that maybe he isn't suited to Howe's future vision or current ideal 11, but I disagree with going so far the other way and being abit negative about his performance today when I think it's clear he is trying to adjust his game for the benefit of the team.

Fair assessment...

 

However, how often, percentage wise, does ASM win us games compared with say Messi.

 

Messi I'd argue about 70%, Maximin is 10% tops.

[Unbelievable]

5 minutes ago, Heron said:

Maxis name was sang. Longstaffs wasn't. No groans or boos for Maxis fuck ups, some for longstaffs. That IS fact.

 

 

 

Longstaff doing more is an opinion mate

[Pata]

You saying ASM isn't as good as Messi?

[alexf]

4 minutes ago, Heron said:

Fair assessment...

 

However, how often, percentage wise, does ASM win us games compared with say Messi.

 

Messi I'd argue about 70%, Maximin is 10% tops.

Fair. But I think my memory might be skewered by the years under Bruce where he literally at times felt like the only goals threat many times. 

 

Btw I wasn't comparing to Messi. I was just trying to give the extreme example. ?

 

Edit. I do remember there was a ridiculous stat back then where we lost every game he didn't play and won quite a few when did. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by alexf

[Heron]

7 minutes ago, Unbelievable said:

Longstaff doing more is an opinion mate

It is. The above is fact though. Longstaff absolutely did more. Even if you assess the equivalent time on the pitch, more effort, more tackles, more passes - would be surprised if any of those stats were in ASMs favour. Granted they're different styles of player, but one is performing to the best of his ability and one isn't.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Heron

[Heron]

Just now, alexf said:

Fair. But I think my memory might be skewered by the years under Bruce where he literally at times felt like the only goals threat many times. 

 

Btw I wasn't comparing to Messi. I was just trying to give the extreme example. ?

No, that's right and fair. My point is  we cannot afford luxuries and certainly one's that aren't even that luxurious.

[Heron]

4 minutes ago, Pata said:

You saying ASM isn't as good as Messi?

Obviously he isn't. That is not the point I was making.

[Away Toon]

Unfortunately for ASM I think we're a worse team when he plays, we lack cohesion and intensity when he's on the pitch. Compare his performance today with Mitoma for Brighton yesterday playing in the same position, I know who I would prefer.

[Dr. TC]

This is totally mad. He played really well, barely gave the ball away, nearly scored and gave us a huge outlet. The only thing he did wrong was lie on the floor in pain for five minutes while his team mates passed around him, but that doesn't take everything away from an all round, unselfish and incisive contribution. 

[Geordie Ahmed]

9 minutes ago, Heron said:

It is. The above is fact though. Longstaff absolutely did more. Even if you assess the equivalent time on the pitch, more effort, more tackles, more passes - would be surprised if any of those stats were in ASMs favour. Granted they're different styles of player, but one is performing to the best of his ability and one isn't.

 

 

 

Why would you expect a winger to have more tackles or passes than a central midfielder?

[Geordie Ahmed]

1 minute ago, Dr. TC said:

This is totally mad. He played really well, barely gave the ball away, nearly scored and gave us a huge outlet. The only thing he did wrong was lie on the floor in pain for five minutes while his team mates passed around him, but that doesn't take everything away from an all round, unselfish and incisive contribution. 

Yep, that was annoying but think once he knew we had the ball he started to get up 

[Heron]

5 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

Why would you expect a winger to have more tackles or passes than a central midfielder?

Fair. But I'd also expect more assists, successful dribbles, assists and/or goals. Maxi' provides little of these too as stats suggest *according to fotmob*

 

12/14 successful passes

0/4 successful dribbles

1/1 successful tackles

0 goals

0 assists

0/1 shots on target

 

Not the stand out player people are alluding to. Unless your levels are low.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Heron

[Geordie Ahmed]

2 minutes ago, Heron said:

Fair. But I'd also expect more assists, successful dribbles, assists and/or goals. Maxi' provides little of these too.tosays stays *according to fotmob*

 

12/14 successful passes

0/4 successful dribbles

1/1 successful tackles

0 goals

0 assists

0/1 shots on target

 

Not thenstand out player people are alluding to. Unless your levels are low.

This season he has more assists than Longstaff despite playing considerably less minutes, considerably more dribbles as well

 

I don't think he was amazing today but certainly didn't do anything wrong to warrant being attacked 

 

 

 

 

[Heron]

3 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

This season he has more assists than Longstaff despite playing considerably less minutes, considerably more dribbles as well

 

I don't think he was amazing today but certainly didn't do anything wrong to warrant being attacked 

 

 

 

 

He didn't do owt, that's why he's being attacked. It's the lack of effort. The "all about me" showmanship.

 

Obviously they're not like for like positions but my point is SL gets a lot more stick yet it's totally unjust. One is playing to his maximum and the other isn't.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Heron

[Heron]

Furthermore, if Maxi isn't scoring or assisting what is he doing to benefit us other than dragging an extra 1 or 2 players spare?

[Geordie Ahmed]

2 minutes ago, Heron said:

He didn't do owt, that's why he's being attacked. It's the lack of effort. The "all about me" showmanship.

 

Obviously they're not like for like positions but my point is SL gets a lot more stick yet it's totally unjust. One is playing to his maximum and the other isn't.

 

 

 

I didn't see this lack of effort, just because he was tackled doesn't mean he didn't try, just like none of Isak's attempted dribbles were successful 

 

He was very good when he came on against Bournemouth and Leeds. The rest he didn't have much time.

 

If you are expecting a player to score/assist every game then you have some unrealistic expectations 

[Kid Icarus]

Looking elsewhere, I think it's fair to say that Heron's view on ASM's performance today is in the extreme minority 

[mighty__mag]

13 minutes ago, Heron said:

Fair dues fella. I'm objective. Maximins aren't my kinda player. This forum treats Ben Arfa like a god but he achieved fuck all speaks volumes. Being talented and a baller don't necessarily cut it for me. Being part of a team that are champions does.

 

But if you've supported Newcastle as long as I have, then you'd know we've never been in a position to be champions, are we blaming flair players for us never winning anything? How have you stuck around supporting us this long if you want a team of champions?

 

I couldn't think of anything worse than a bunch of hard working result grinders, managed by a boring fucker like Mourinho. I want to enjoy this, I want to enjoy Howe, the players taking us on the beginning of the new era, we'll build slowly, we'll get it wrong, and we'll get it right, the Man City model is probably a vision these owners might duplicate, or, it might be very different.

 

I find it unusual you'd say being a talented baller isn't enough, you need those types of players, because one player can't do it all, I'm sure Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, have all had a baller who couldn't do everything, but, in a side with many good players around you, that said player was appreciated for what he did bring I'm sure. 

 

We cant be running before we can walk, and if this takeover produces success, it will take ages before we see Newcastle champions, perhaps because we are currently over achieving if we're honest, are some people seriously writing off good players and demanding a team of champions already? because we find ourselves third in the league, and in a semi final of a cup.

 

Just enjoy it man, tbh it's a miracle its happening, (although its divided fans because of where the money has come from,) but on the football side of things I thought my one and only enjoyment was going to be the 90s, an eleven year old buzzing over watching Keegan's entertainers, full of flair players, never won a thing, but, it was the best time of my life, like you want a team of champions now, I never got one then, but I still loved it. Newcastle were everyone's second team, because we played the game in the right way, 'The Entertainers'

 

Jesus I've done a HTT.

 

Honestly man, Maxi isn't the problem, he will be the solution in certain games, just wait and see.

 

And don't be worrying about being a team of champions, it's going to hopefully happen, I just hope I'm here when it does. 

 

☺️??

 

 

[Pata]

1 hour ago, Heron said:

Fair. But I'd also expect more assists, successful dribbles, assists and/or goals. Maxi' provides little of these too as stats suggest *according to fotmob*

 

Maybe you should use a bit larger sample size. ASM had 150 successful dribbles in 21/22. Next best in the PL had 90 (McNeil) and third had 75 (Zaha). But back then he was labelled selfish, now he's getting stick for passing the ball.

 

https://www.kickest.it/en/premier-league/stats/players/successful-dribbles/2021-2022

[r0cafella]

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

Looking elsewhere, I think it's fair to say that Heron's view on ASM's performance today is in the extreme minority 

Hopefully, his posting tonight is so far off which is a shame as @Heronis class. 
 

ASM is an integral part of the squad and is clearly trying to change his game to fit in with what the manager wants. Is he perfect? Of course not and inconsistent is to be expected from players who focus on dribbling. 

[Heron]

6 hours ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

I didn't see this lack of effort, just because he was tackled doesn't mean he didn't try, just like none of Isak's attempted dribbles were successful 

 

He was very good when he came on against Bournemouth and Leeds. The rest he didn't have much time.

 

If you are expecting a player to score/assist every game then you have some unrealistic expectations 

No. I don't but there were numerous occasions where ASM was still and the game passed him by. I expect yo him to work like every other squad player works, and he doesn't. He doesn't score and assist often enough, so we cannot afford his laziness is my point.

[MrRaspberryJam]

I thought he was canny when he came on. Obviously nowhere near his best but very lively and nearly scored. Hasn't played much recently so was never going to be at his best.

[Heron]

5 hours ago, mighty__mag said:

 

But if you've supported Newcastle as long as I have, then you'd know we've never been in a position to be champions, are we blaming flair players for us never winning anything? How have you stuck around supporting us this long if you want a team of champions?

 

I couldn't think of anything worse than a bunch of hard working result grinders, managed by a boring fucker like Mourinho. I want to enjoy this, I want to enjoy Howe, the players taking us on the beginning of the new era, we'll build slowly, we'll get it wrong, and we'll get it right, the Man City model is probably a vision these owners might duplicate, or, it might be very different.

 

I find it unusual you'd say being a talented baller isn't enough, you need those types of players, because one player can't do it all, I'm sure Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, have all had a baller who couldn't do everything, but, in a side with many good players around you, that said player was appreciated for what he did bring I'm sure. 

 

We cant be running before we can walk, and if this takeover produces success, it will take ages before we see Newcastle champions, perhaps because we are currently over achieving if we're honest, are some people seriously writing off good players and demanding a team of champions already? because we find ourselves third in the league, and in a semi final of a cup.

 

Just enjoy it man, tbh it's a miracle its happening, (although its divided fans because of where the money has come from,) but on the football side of things I thought my one and only enjoyment was going to be the 90s, an eleven year old buzzing over watching Keegan's entertainers, full of flair players, never won a thing, but, it was the best time of my life, like you want a team of champions now, I never got one then, but I still loved it. Newcastle were everyone's second team, because we played the game in the right way, 'The Entertainers'

 

Jesus I've done a HTT.

 

Honestly man, Maxi isn't the problem, he will be the solution in certain games, just wait and see.

 

And don't be worrying about being a team of champions, it's going to hopefully happen, I just hope I'm here when it does. 

 

☺️??

 

 

Players at Manchester City all graft, every single one of them, same with Liverpool, same with Arsenal. Maxi doesn't. Of course every one ha dflair players but they do the basics and they do the dirty work as well.

 

I personally don't give a fuck about winning the entertaining way, I want us to win, I want us to be the best, once we've won 12 cups I'll worry about the entertaining piece.

 

I'd spin that question back to you. How can you have stuck around if you want to just watch entertaining football? We've been far from entertaining for many of the 28 years I've been following them.

 

I am absolutely enjoying every moment of this. That doesn't mean I cannot have a negative opinion on a player, just as everyone seemingly does about Longstaff. Players like ASM have some sort of higher worship on this forum. Same for HBA. Absolutely exciting Players, can do magical things, but if they do it 1 in 10 when we're needing all hands to the pump, that's not enough overall for me.

[Joseph]

6 hours ago, Heron said:

Even if you assess the equivalent time on the pitch, more effort, more tackles, more passes - would be surprised if any of those stats were in ASMs favour.

Hasn’t saved a single shot all season either this cunt. Get rid. 

[Heron]

5 hours ago, Pata said:

 

Maybe you should use a bit larger sample size. ASM had 150 successful dribbles in 21/22. Next best in the PL had 90 (McNeil) and third had 75 (Zaha). But back then he was labelled selfish, now he's getting stick for passing the ball.

 

https://www.kickest.it/en/premier-league/stats/players/successful-dribbles/2021-2022

Totally different team though then, Maxi has played his part, he is a talented dribbler, one of the most talented I've ever seen, but he isn't what we now need. Or certainly isn't enough to be a starter, especially if he doesn't graft.