The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Dokko]

2 minutes ago, Darth Crooks said:

What evidence is that then? The bin laden photo isn’t the smoking gun some portray it as given the historical context. Just seems like a lot of conjecture whereas it seems more or less accepted fact he was butchered at the behest of MBS. Whether or not the evidence is there for what is said - fact remains he was dismembered ffs. Fucking dismembered.

 

I went down the rabbit hole 18 months ago when this all started, so not really got it at hand, but like I said from the start of this chat my opinion has always been there is more to this than we know and was based on what I read and saw from various articles and sources. I'm certainly not debating the grizzly conclusion, which was barbaric, just what the story is which got him there and who he and his fiancee really were. 

 

[Khalidao]

10 minutes ago, Joey Linton said:

The bloke got chopped up mate. I feel fairly confident in my belief of that being unacceptable, regardless of whether or not I have your vast array of political knowledge. 

 

I've never said it's in any way, shape or form acceptable or that his murder wasn't a heinous crime.

 

Getting informed on Middle East politics though will make you understand how this awful crime was used for political gains against people who weren't actually involved.

[St. Maximin]

11 hours ago, geordiesteve710 said:

 

If anyone still has any doubts that sportswashing exists as a concept, I'd point you in the direction of that doylem and a creepy video he did a couple of weeks ago. Horrific stuff.

I do. If that’s sportswashing then it’s pretty pathetic really. If they want to buy a club to change their reputation and that’s the kind of success they get, then they haven’t achieved much and neither is that a reason for the likes of Amnesty International to start ranting away about the concept. I cynically think just don’t think certain countries are fit to own clubs or host sporting events and need to use some concept to make their concerns seem less controversial. 
 

What I’m waiting to see is attention being directed away from human rights abuses, when by and large the opposite seems to have happened. Funny how all the journalists commenting on sportswashing seem to ironically be contributing to the opposite effect. And it’s pretty insulting to the intelligence of both the Saudis and the UK public to think the human rights abuses will just magically become unheard of or even ignored. 
 

This guy gets it. https://www.themag.co.uk/2021/10/sportswashing-is-a-term-that-explains-little-and-obscures-everything-newcastle-united-takeover/

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by St. Maximin

[Kasper]

16 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

I do. If that’s sportswashing then it’s pretty pathetic really. If they want to buy a club to change their reputation and that’s the kind of success they get, then they haven’t achieved much and neither is that a reason for the likes of Amnesty International to start ranting away. 
 

What I’m waiting to see is attention being directed away from human rights abuses, when by and large the opposite seems to have happened. Funny how all the journalists commenting on sportswashing seem to ironically be contributing to the opposite effect. And it’s pretty insulting to the intelligence of both the Saudis and the UK public to think the human rights abuses will just magically become unheard of or even ignored. 
 

This guy gets it. https://www.themag.co.uk/2021/10/sportswashing-is-a-term-that-explains-little-and-obscures-everything-newcastle-united-takeover/

 

Yeah for sure we can conclude it's not sportwashing because it hasn't changed the narrative in the first 5 weeks of the project. For sure, for sure, for sure. Just enjoy the football, nothing to see here. 

 

 

[Kasper]

10 hours ago, Khalidao said:

 

I've never said it's in any way, shape or form acceptable or that his murder wasn't a heinous crime.

 

Getting informed on Middle East politics though will make you understand how this awful crime was used for political gains against people who weren't actually involved.

 

 You're a funny bot.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Kasper

[St. Maximin]

6 minutes ago, Kasper said:

 

Yeah for sure we can conclude it's not sportwashing because it hasn't changed the narrative in the first 5 weeks of the project. For sure, for sure, for sure. Just enjoy the football, nothing to see here. 

 

 

Ok then I’ll enjoy seeing the Saudis become heroes over the next few years and all of a sudden their human rights abuses will be magically forgotten about, as all the journalists writing about them will join our side too. After all, Arabs just want to please us westerners. 
 

 

[Kasper]

3 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

Ok then I’ll enjoy seeing the Saudis become heroes over the next few years and all of a sudden their human rights abuses will be magically forgotten about, as all the journalists writing about them will join our side too. After all, Arabs just want to please us westerners. 
 

 

 

I have no idea why you're talking about "pleasing". Trying to change their "brand" has nothing to do with pleasing anyone. 

 

But yeah, let's check again in 10 years if murdering journalists or UCL final is the first thing football fans think about when the word Saudi Arabia pops up.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Kasper

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

 

I have no idea why you're talking about "pleasing". Trying to change their "brand" has nothing to do with pleasing anyone. 

 

But yeah, let's check again in 10 years if murdering journalists or UCL final is the first thing football fans think about when the word Saudi Arabia pops up.

 

 

 

Wasn’t aimed at anything you said mate but there’s this underlying assumption by people arguing their sportswashing concerns that Arabs are trying to please us with their calculated methods of investing in sport. The article I posted I think is decent, from someone who knows a thing or two about KSA and PIF. 
 

By all means they want to engage with the west but it’s a business move as they attempt to diversify and grow their economy. The cynical idea they are trying to draw attention away from human rights abuses I feel lacks evidence and even if they are, then it’s not very effective for the reasons I gave. 
 

It’s interesting you say that when KSA has changed a lot of its laws. If that continues over 10 years then maybe you are right but I’m not sure how much that has to do with sportswashing. Also the Russia and Qatar world cups were awarded over 10 years ago, but especially for the latter, they have merely put human rights issue to the forefront of a lot of fans’ minds when chances are they never thought about them before. 

[Dokko]

1 minute ago, St. Maximin said:

Wasn’t aimed at anything you said mate but there’s this underlying assumption by people arguing their sportswashing concerns that Arabs are trying to please us with their calculated methods of investing in sport. The article I posted I think is decent, from someone who knows a thing or two about KSA and PIF. 
 

By all means they want to engage with the west but it’s a business move as they attempt to diversify and grow their economy. The cynical idea they are trying to draw attention away from human rights abuses I feel lacks evidence and even if they are, then it’s not very effective for the reasons I gave. 
 

It’s interesting you say that when KSA has changed a lot of its laws. If that continues over 10 years then maybe you are right but I’m not sure how much that has to do with sportswashing. Also the Russia and Qatar world cups were awarded over 10 years ago, but especially for the latter, they have merely put human rights issue to the forefront of a lot of fans’ minds when chances are they never thought about them before. 

 

I do like the part in that article that the west are so up themselves they believe the middle east give a fuck about what they think so much so they need to sportswash. 

[geordiesteve710]

1 hour ago, St. Maximin said:

I do. If that’s sportswashing then it’s pretty pathetic really. If they want to buy a club to change their reputation and that’s the kind of success they get, then they haven’t achieved much and neither is that a reason for the likes of Amnesty International to start ranting away about the concept. I cynically think just don’t think certain countries are fit to own clubs or host sporting events and need to use some concept to make their concerns seem less controversial. 
 

What I’m waiting to see is attention being directed away from human rights abuses, when by and large the opposite seems to have happened. Funny how all the journalists commenting on sportswashing seem to ironically be contributing to the opposite effect. And it’s pretty insulting to the intelligence of both the Saudis and the UK public to think the human rights abuses will just magically become unheard of or even ignored. 
 

This guy gets it. https://www.themag.co.uk/2021/10/sportswashing-is-a-term-that-explains-little-and-obscures-everything-newcastle-united-takeover/

 

 

 

 

To clarify, I do have my doubts that "sportswashing" is an effective way to repair/reset a country's brand or image. For example it's never going to magically make everyone forget the abuses and get on their side.

 

But my comment was more aimed at those who doubt the very existence of sportswashing as a concept. You've now got Newcastle fans (often but not always the same people) saying that they just want to watch football but then getting defensive and justifying the ownership every time it is attacked. We are only five weeks in and already Saudi flags are a consistent feature in our away ends.

 

The extreme version is you've now got Keith, a fan who has considerable influence within our fanbase doing a video in arab garb with Saudi flags pinned all over his basement explaining that they're not all that bad and there's much we can learn from each others cultures. And in honesty there are many (not all, obviously) who are happy to hang on his every word and get behind this narrative.

 

Fwiw I also agree with you that journalists are somewhat counter-productive, but as long as they get their clicks that's the main thing for them. This is where sportswashing is clever- it plays on the tribal instincts of football fans. The natural instinct in any close community is to see an attack on one of us as an attack on us all, especially when some of the attacks are aimed at the fanbase itself and worded provocatively often by (if we're honest) hypocritical dickheads. It plays on strong human instincts that are heightened by the passionate, tribal nature of football and I don't agree that it's insulting anyone's intelligence to say that it is a strategy that a) is used and b) potentially could have some success.

 

Put the above together and all of a sudden you've got a section of voices in the UK fighting the Saudis corner and defending what they previously would have seen as the indefensible. Not everyone, but a section, and all of a sudden it's a legitimate debate.

[geordiesteve710]

3 minutes ago, Dokko said:

 

I do like the part in that article that the west are so up themselves they believe the middle east give a fuck about what they think so much so they need to sportswash. 

There is definitely a reason why the most vocal criticisms have centred on Khasogghi, which was purely perpetrated by KSA and not on Yemen where the West and the UK are absolutely compicit in what's going on.

[Happinesstan]

2 hours ago, Saudi Geordie said:

Don't bother yourself my friend! some people here has negative reaction and prejudice against Saudi Arabia. 

 

The media did a great job blaming NUFC fans and try to stop them from enjoying their club's future.

 

We should just enjoy football and the love we share for this club.. but again this thread still exists.

 

Welcome to the new clique.

[Happinesstan]

29 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

Wasn’t aimed at anything you said mate but there’s this underlying assumption by people arguing their sportswashing concerns that Arabs are trying to please us with their calculated methods of investing in sport. The article I posted I think is decent, from someone who knows a thing or two about KSA and PIF. 
 

By all means they want to engage with the west but it’s a business move as they attempt to diversify and grow their economy. The cynical idea they are trying to draw attention away from human rights abuses I feel lacks evidence and even if they are, then it’s not very effective for the reasons I gave. 
 

It’s interesting you say that when KSA has changed a lot of its laws. If that continues over 10 years then maybe you are right but I’m not sure how much that has to do with sportswashing. Also the Russia and Qatar world cups were awarded over 10 years ago, but especially for the latter, they have merely put human rights issue to the forefront of a lot of fans’ minds when chances are they never thought about them before. 

Are you not pleased?

[TopSnagger]

Absolute outsider opinion and someone who's from a racial minority here. I've spent years in the UAE, which is a more liberal Saudi Arabia. And I wasn't the only one. Nor is there any shortage of Brits in Saudi Arabia.

 

Now Saudi themselves commit a lot of human rights violations and in a way, the country is a cesspool of human right abuses, but.... if we see nothing wrong with Brits going there for a job, or rich Saudi kids coming here either to live in a liberal country or to go back and stay in Saudi, why is it wrong if they invest in a football club? They're allowed to buy homes in London, they're allowed to send their kids to British Unis. Hell, Sheikh Muhammad (Ruler of Dubai) owns more acres of land in Britain than there are in many small towns in Britain. 

 

 

I say this with regards to City as well, people are honestly a bit too uptight on these things. Britain is rich because it colonised half the world and committed human right abuses centuries ago. I have no contrition for this as it happened, and none of us living now decided to colonise the world. But it's why Britain is rich, and is the source of the Queen's wealth, for example.

 

But if the Crown decided to own a team, say Prince Williams bought out Aston Villa, the only uproar would be about the cost to the taxpayer, and none about the source of the wealth.

 

Chelsea's wealth is not attacked in the same way, even though what Russian oligarchs do to gain their wealth is well known. It smacks of exploiting anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment at times. How come oil money is bad but other money is good?

Other examples include Lewis Hamilton racing for AMG Petronas Mercedes. Search how many Petronas have killed. No one brings this up. But people will attack Lewis Hamilton for appearing in a video sponsored by Aramco. Massive double standards.

 

Honestly, I don't think I'd like to be owned by morally black owners. But..... all owners are at least morally grey and yet the only ones people really seem to care about are those who plan to invest and those who happen to be non-British and non-American.

 

[Joey47]

21 hours ago, kisearch said:

Feel free to tell me to STFU, but my advice to everyone would be to accept that the club we support is owned by terrible, terrible people and to just accept that. You don't need to excuse yourself or justify supporting the club you've supported your entire life to anyone but yourself. You couldn't change the owners if you wanted to, if Newcastle fans couldn't be budged to boycott an owner they all universally loathed, they're not going to be budged to boycott owners that 97% of the fan base wanted.

 

If you start looking for hypocrisy everywhere you'll find it everywhere (because it is everywhere) and spend your time driving yourself crazy trying to show everyone the double standards - ever further grasping at straws to the point of outright excusing the owners of their wrongdoing. You're also playing the man and not the ball - just because there's hypocrisy doesn't mean they're wrong.

 

Thicker skins and an acceptance of the situation imo, don't let yourself excuse things you know are barbaric, or start picking at genuine arguments from the likes of Amnesty International or Hatice Cengiz, not just because it's a shit thing to do, but also because it'll also drive you mental in the long run. We all know that the majority of fans of other clubs are completely full of shit, they all are, we all were with Man City. Club owners are exactly the same and it's all about them using whatever argument they have available to them to complain about how it's now harder for them to succeed. We won the blood money lottery and they didn't - that's basically the depth of their complaint and knowing that makes it easy to ignore them imo. NUFC isn't specifically disliked by fans or other club owners for any other reason, Amnesty International and the like aren't specifically picking on NUFC either, they do this stuff across the board and rightly so. 

 

 

 

 

I completely agree with this and these are my feelings exactly.

 

At the same time I find it funny how few of us made our position on this clear before the takeover happened. Before the takeover was confirmed I saw very few posts (from our fans) speaking about the terrible terrible people that were trying to buy the club.

 

I guess it just shows how desperate we were to be rid of Ashley and have some hope again.

[leffe186]

22 hours ago, kisearch said:

Feel free to tell me to STFU, but my advice to everyone would be to accept that the club we support is owned by terrible, terrible people and to just accept that. You don't need to excuse yourself or justify supporting the club you've supported your entire life to anyone but yourself. You couldn't change the owners if you wanted to, if Newcastle fans couldn't be budged to boycott an owner they all universally loathed, they're not going to be budged to boycott owners that 97% of the fan base wanted.

 

If you start looking for hypocrisy everywhere you'll find it everywhere (because it is everywhere) and spend your time driving yourself crazy trying to show everyone the double standards - ever further grasping at straws to the point of outright excusing the owners of their wrongdoing. You're also playing the man and not the ball - just because there's hypocrisy doesn't mean they're wrong.

 

Thicker skins and an acceptance of the situation imo, don't let yourself excuse things you know are barbaric, or start picking at genuine arguments from the likes of Amnesty International or Hatice Cengiz, not just because it's a shit thing to do, but also because it'll also drive you mental in the long run. We all know that the majority of fans of other clubs are completely full of shit, they all are, we all were with Man City. Club owners are exactly the same and it's all about them using whatever argument they have available to them to complain about how it's now harder for them to succeed. We won the blood money lottery and they didn't - that's basically the depth of their complaint and knowing that makes it easy to ignore them imo. NUFC isn't specifically disliked by fans or other club owners for any other reason, Amnesty International and the like aren't specifically picking on NUFC either, they do this stuff across the board and rightly so. 

 

 

 

Agreed in the main. That said, as somebody who  started to drift away from football with the arrival of Abramovich, I have issues.

 

Clearly many people are just resentful that you won this latest installment of the lottery (it’s not always blood, of course). But there are people like me who will always support club X at heart but have made the - frankly - difficult decision to say “enough”. As you say,  people only need to justify their support to themselves. It’s just been interesting to see them do so publicly. The fact that it’s been such a public and contentious issue is partly due to media scrutiny but also partly because  ownership of any club by an actual regime is clearly problematic.

 

As you’ve pointed out in the past, “Support the team, not the regime” has become something of your own petard. I’ve said it before, there’s always some hypocrisy involved in being a supporter. I just think it’s worth acknowledging that just walking away actually is an option.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by leffe186

[Kid Icarus]

33 minutes ago, Joey47 said:

 

I completely agree with this and these are my feelings exactly.

 

At the same time I find it funny how few of us made our position on this clear before the takeover happened. Before the takeover was confirmed I saw very few posts (from our fans) speaking about the terrible terrible people that were trying to buy the club.

 

I guess it just shows how desperate we were to be rid of Ashley and have some hope again.

 

There was a lot of it around the original potential takeover in 2020. I can only speak for me, but when it came around again this year I just couldn't be bothered with the anguish of going over the same arguments again when it was so obvious that it would it would be a massive waste of time and energy. 

[arnonel]

Quote

“Here’s an interesting circular equation. Manchester United are currently playing Paris Saint-Germain over two legs in the Champions League. Paris Saint-Germain are owned by Qatar. Qatar also sponsors Bayern Munich and Roma and has a “foundation” project with Real Madrid.

Real Madrid are sponsored by the Emirates airline of the UAE. Another of the emirates, Abu Dhabi, owns Manchester City. Manchester City are taking on Schalke, who are sponsored by Gazprom, which is owned by Russia, which is in effect at war in Syria with Qatar, which is being blockaded by Dubai, which is a financial services partner of Manchester United, whose next opponents will be Paris Saint-Germain, who are owned by Qatar. Which is pretty much where we came in.

Confusing, isn’t it? If only there were a single figure who could stand above and wade through this confusion of interests. For example, Nasser al-Khelaifi, the newest member of UEFA’s executive committee.

Khelaifi is also chairman of BeIn sports, which pays UEFA for its Champions League TV rights. UEFA is investigating claims of financial fair play breaches by PSG. Where he is — do keep up — the club chairman.”

 

Found that quote mental

[Kid Icarus]

22 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Agreed in the main. That said, as somebody who  started to drift away from football with the arrival of Abramovich, I have issues.

 

Clearly many people are just resentful that you won this latest installment of the lottery (it’s not always blood, of course). But there are people like me who will always support club X at heart but have made the - frankly - difficult decision to say “enough”. As you say,  people only need to justify their support to themselves. It’s just been interesting to see them do so publicly. The fact that it’s been such a public and contentious issue is partly due to media scrutiny but also partly because  ownership of any club by an actual regime is clearly problematic.

 

As you’ve pointed out in the past, “Support the team, not the regime” has become something of your own petard. I’ve said it before, there’s always some hypocrisy involved in being a supporter. I just think it’s worth acknowledging that just walking away actually is an option.

 

 

 

Walking away is definitely an option but I do think for most it's an unrealistic one. I think most will pick somewhere on the scale between walking away and just outright lauding the owners. Personally I can't feel the excitement over this that I would if more or less anyone else had taken over, but I also can't stop myself from consuming all of it either - the new manager, the training, the potential new signings, the SD signs coming down. It's partly why I'm so convinced that nearly everyone's full of shit, because I was against the takeover and am against the takeover, yet here I am not just resigned to the reality but taking it all in. My more or less worthless promise to myself is that I'm still not going to buy anything from the club or fund it, which is honestly the most futile, pointless, genuinely virtue signal-y thing to excuse my conscience, but if fully walking away isn't an option and protesting it would be like trying to sell garlic in Translyvania,  I'm not sure what else anyone feeling that way can do but to support the team, not the regime. I've made this point before, but they're not daft, they knew exactly who they were buying. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by kisearch

[Rich]

3 hours ago, Saudi Geordie said:

Don't bother yourself my friend! some people here has negative reaction and prejudice against Saudi Arabia. 

 

The media did a great job blaming NUFC fans and try to stop them from enjoying their club's future.

 

We should just enjoy football and the love we share for this club.. but again this thread still exists.

 

Get to fuck, man.

[Happinesstan]

51 minutes ago, kisearch said:

most will pick somewhere on the scale between walking away and just outright lauding the owners.

What will the others pick?

You know I'm only kidding. I actually share the sentiment in your post, But I won't find it difficult to not support them financially.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Happinesstan

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, Happinesstan said:

What will the others pick?

 

Actively protesting against it. 

[Happinesstan]

Just now, kisearch said:

 

Actively protesting against it. 

Ah, right. I see. Dunno if you saw my edit.

[Dokko]

12 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

What will the others pick?

You know I'm only kidding. I actually share the sentiment in your post, But I won't find it difficult to not support them financially.

 

 

 

Is that a triple negative? You been watching Taskmaster?

[Happinesstan]

12 minutes ago, Dokko said:

Is that a triple negative? You been watching Taskmaster?

No to all three.