Eddie Howe

[TRon]

4 hours ago, TaylorJ_01 said:

I think he approached Wolves correctly in terms of playing his strongest team.

 

I just disagree on what that team was. Knowing we'd take lion's share of possession we didn't need Tonali and Joelinton together. Should've tried Ramsey or Miley in midfield to try and create more going forward.

 

Also, Barnes on the left because, up against that 'low block', we needed to get some shots to test soppy bollocks in goals. Trippier and Barnes on the right is an awful combination (more to do with Trippier than anything).

 

 

I don't think we needed to play our strongest team so I disagree on that point. Our whole identity is based on high intensity, so I just think we should have rotated bearing that in mind. Ramsey and Elanga should have started in my view. If we play our strongest team against the bottom side, then we really needed to win to justify it. 

[SUPERTOON]

Just now, TRon said:

 

 

I don't think we needed to play our strongest team so I disagree on that point. Our whole identity is based on high intensity, so I just think we should have rotated bearing that in mind. Ramsey and Elanga should have started in my view. If we play our strongest team against the bottom side, then we really needed to win to justify it. 

It’s not based on intensity anymore tbf.  I’m not sure what it is anymore. It would be a major plus if we could start to see what our new way of playing is going to be.

[Vinny Green Balls]

3 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

I think the importance of time and circumstances is really being underestimated in our fanbase tbh. In some cases you could call it impatience or entitlement too.

 

Seeing loads of stuff about how we need to do this, that, and the other in terms of player recruitment to get to where we need to be.

 

All fair enough if that's your view, but at the same time, we've just done that and it's only half a season later. A fixture packed, initially disrupted, and injury hit half season at that. One where the time to get the new players up to speed has been limited by games themselves.

 

Say we overhauled in the summer again, is that how long you give to decide on whether it's worked or not, regardless of the circumstances? 

 

I just can't get my head around witnessing what we've had under Howe - not least the amount of times he's made people jumping to early conclusions on everything (but in this case player recruitment) look daft - and still coming to the conclusion that this time it's different.

the apparent  lack of self reflection is pretty impressive

[LiquidAK]

Dunno how much stock I put in the idea that Howe is doomed to be a 1-game-a-week manager. He's relatively young and to date has managed 1.5 seasons with European football. I get that "he never learns" has become a bit of a meme amongst the hard of thinking but I guarantee this is an element of his management he'll be working to improve.

[Displayname]

28 minutes ago, LiquidAK said:

Dunno how much stock I put in the idea that Howe is doomed to be a 1-game-a-week manager. He's relatively young and to date has managed 1.5 seasons with European football. I get that "he never learns" has become a bit of a meme amongst the hard of thinking but I guarantee this is an element of his management he'll be working to improve.

He might evolve, seen little signs of it yet though in regards to the shift in playstyle needed.

Mostly what he has had success with is an intensive playstyle with a mostly set group of players. That just doesn't work with 2 games a week.

 

I know we aren't sitting too badly at the league table atm, but we also played twice against the team in 16th, 19th and 20th place. Afraid that things we look at lot worse in a few weeks.

[Mattoon]

I'd argue we've got a 1 game a week squad, that's the issue.

[LiquidAK]

46 minutes ago, Displayname said:

He might evolve, seen little signs of it yet though in regards to the shift in playstyle needed.

Mostly what he has had success with is an intensive playstyle with a mostly set group of players. That just doesn't work with 2 games a week.

 

I know we aren't sitting too badly at the league table atm, but we also played twice against the team in 16th, 19th and 20th place. Afraid that things we look at lot worse in a few weeks.

I think it's pretty clear he's trying to shift towards a less intense, more possession-based style, I imagine in direct response to the injury crisis we ended up in the last time we were trying to juggle Europe, cups and the league. He's also trying to manage adapting a team to a very different type of no. 9 in Woltemade at the same time, who himself is young and new to the league and needs time to adapt.

 

It's obviously not clicking right now, but I don't think it's a fair criticism to say that he's not trying to evolve our game. Not evolving would mean sticking to the all out press in every game, being hit by injuries even more than we are now, and the cries of "Howe hasn't learned from last time, we knew this would happen, this isn't sustainable 3 times a week" ad nauseum

 

It's pretty likely we'll slip a few places over the next few weeks given our fixtures, but he'll get there, he always does. I can't stress enough that prior to this season he'd managed 6 European games in his entire career, it's just so early to be saying that he'll not crack this with a bit of time

[The Prophet]

At the end of the day, it's really important to keep as many weapons in the armoury as possible. Howe is inflexible can be seamlessly flipped to Howe doesn't know how to manage three games a week.

 

Similarly, with a slight shift of the goal posts, Howe doesn't rotate can become Howe is responsible for a disastrous summer.

 

With an agenda, this stuff is absolutely key to scoring a lot of points, which is really all that matters.

[TheBrownBottle]

33 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

Similarly, with a slight shift of the goal posts, Howe doesn't rotate can become Howe is responsible for a disastrous summer.

 

 

If they weren’t his signings, whose signings were they?

 

If this coming summer’s business works out perfectly, please make sure you give Howe no credit for it, given he takes no responsibility for transfer failures

[TheBrownBottle]

Last summer’s window was clearly on Howe, as should be the credit for the successes before it.  Howe’s record in the transfer market was an almost 100% hit rate prior to the summer, so it means his overall record takes a knock.  

[Alberto2005]

1 hour ago, LiquidAK said:

I think it's pretty clear he's trying to shift towards a less intense, more possession-based style, I imagine in direct response to the injury crisis we ended up in the last time we were trying to juggle Europe, cups and the league. He's also trying to manage adapting a team to a very different type of no. 9 in Woltemade at the same time, who himself is young and new to the league and needs time to adapt.

 

It's obviously not clicking right now, but I don't think it's a fair criticism to say that he's not trying to evolve our game. Not evolving would mean sticking to the all out press in every game, being hit by injuries even more than we are now, and the cries of "Howe hasn't learned from last time, we knew this would happen, this isn't sustainable 3 times a week" ad nauseum

 

It's pretty likely we'll slip a few places over the next few weeks given our fixtures, but he'll get there, he always does. I can't stress enough that prior to this season he'd managed 6 European games in his entire career, it's just so early to be saying that he'll not crack this with a bit of time

Good post 

[Displayname]

8 hours ago, LiquidAK said:

I think it's pretty clear he's trying to shift towards a less intense, more possession-based style, I imagine in direct response to the injury crisis we ended up in the last time we were trying to juggle Europe, cups and the league. He's also trying to manage adapting a team to a very different type of no. 9 in Woltemade at the same time, who himself is young and new to the league and needs time to adapt.

 

It's obviously not clicking right now, but I don't think it's a fair criticism to say that he's not trying to evolve our game. Not evolving would mean sticking to the all out press in every game, being hit by injuries even more than we are now, and the cries of "Howe hasn't learned from last time, we knew this would happen, this isn't sustainable 3 times a week" ad nauseum

 

It's pretty likely we'll slip a few places over the next few weeks given our fixtures, but he'll get there, he always does. I can't stress enough that prior to this season he'd managed 6 European games in his entire career, it's just so early to be saying that he'll not crack this with a bit of time

I'm honestly not sure what kind of playstyle we are trying to change to, it all looks kind of a mess to me.

But anyways let me rephrase, I've seen little signs of him successfully evolving a new playstyle needed when we play two games a week. 

 

But by all means he might get there, he is still young and learning. I'm not saying for certain that it's never going to happen.

I'm for sure not fully buying into the "He'll get there, he always does" though. He ended up getting relegated with Bournemouth.

[SUPERTOON]

9 hours ago, LiquidAK said:

I think it's pretty clear he's trying to shift towards a less intense, more possession-based style, I imagine in direct response to the injury crisis we ended up in the last time we were trying to juggle Europe, cups and the league. He's also trying to manage adapting a team to a very different type of no. 9 in Woltemade at the same time, who himself is young and new to the league and needs time to adapt.

 

It's obviously not clicking right now, but I don't think it's a fair criticism to say that he's not trying to evolve our game. Not evolving would mean sticking to the all out press in every game, being hit by injuries even more than we are now, and the cries of "Howe hasn't learned from last time, we knew this would happen, this isn't sustainable 3 times a week" ad nauseum

 

It's pretty likely we'll slip a few places over the next few weeks given our fixtures, but he'll get there, he always does. I can't stress enough that prior to this season he'd managed 6 European games in his entire career, it's just so early to be saying that he'll not crack this with a bit of time

Do you think he decided to try and change playing style before the season, or during? Genuine question as if it was before, then the summer window made very little sense.

[Displayname]

And ok it's true that he only managed 6 european games before this season, but it's not like you need those games to develop a new playstyle.

[LiquidAK]

28 minutes ago, Displayname said:

I'm honestly not sure what kind of playstyle we are trying to change to, it all looks kind of a mess to me.

But anyways let me rephrase, I've seen little signs of him successfully evolving a new playstyle needed when we play two games a week. 

There it is, the subtle moving of the goalposts. Very cool. Not successful yet

 

29 minutes ago, Displayname said:

But by all means he might get there, he is still young and learning. I'm not saying for certain that it's never going to happen.

I'm for sure not fully buying into the "He'll get there, he always does" though. He ended up getting relegated with Bournemouth.

I mean this just proves my point. "Ended up getting relegated with Bournemouth" is a super ungenerous view of what happened there. He dragged them into the Premier League, kept them there for a bit, had a pretty big set back but grew from it, improving as a coach. He's having set backs here, thankfully with much lower stakes than relegation, he'll grow from these too.

 

5 minutes ago, Displayname said:

And ok it's true that he only managed 6 european games before this season, but it's not like you need those games to develop a new playstyle.

It's about experience of juggling the extra commitments, having fewer days on the training ground between games. It's not solely about developing a new playstyle, it's adapting coaching methods to having less time with the players, all WHILE trying to adapt the playstyle with a different set of tools than he had before (Isak out, Wolte in). I'm not a football manager, but it feels mad to assume that this should happen overnight and not that it could take a bit of time. 

[LiquidAK]

19 minutes ago, SUPERTOON said:

Do you think he decided to try and change playing style before the season, or during? Genuine question as if it was before, then the summer window made very little sense.

Very good question, I don't know.

 

Our window felt like a scramble and disjointed for sure. I'd hope that Wilson and better infrastructure will give us more direction in future windows. Feels like there have been some big missteps, maybe the likes of Elanga will come good but they don't feel like what we needed in the short-term, and if Howe had the influence that he's meant to have done in our signings he has to take flack for that. I want the club to do whatever it takes to give Howe the tools to do what he's great at, getting the best out of a squad of players and making us competitive in every competition we enter. If that means reducing his influence in the market or sharing some of the load for squad-building with a DoF then I'd absolutely advocate for that.

[Displayname]

17 minutes ago, LiquidAK said:

There it is, the subtle moving of the goalposts. Very cool. Not successful yet

 

I mean this just proves my point. "Ended up getting relegated with Bournemouth" is a super ungenerous view of what happened there. He dragged them into the Premier League, kept them there for a bit, had a pretty big set back but grew from it, improving as a coach. He's having set backs here, thankfully with much lower stakes than relegation, he'll grow from these too.

 

It's about experience of juggling the extra commitments, having fewer days on the training ground between games. It's not solely about developing a new playstyle, it's adapting coaching methods to having less time with the players, all WHILE trying to adapt the playstyle with a different set of tools than he had before (Isak out, Wolte in). I'm not a football manager, but it feels mad to assume that this should happen overnight and not that it could take a bit of time. 

I'm not moving the goalpoast, I'm not just going to bother debating whether we are trying to change the playstyle or not, I'm sceptical of his ability to do so (and it being successfull is implied), considering that most of his success comes from a certain type of playstyle. 

 

If Guardiola had to take over our players I would feel the same scepticism about him succeeding here f.ex. (before changing out the players)

Most managers have a certain type of brand of football the play.

[LiquidAK]

5 minutes ago, Displayname said:

I'm not moving the goalpoast, I'm not just going to bother debating whether we are trying to change the playstyle or not, I'm sceptical of his ability to do so (and it being successfull is implied), considering that most of his success comes from a certain type of playstyle. 

 

If Guardiola had to take over our players I would feel the same scepticism about him succeeding here f.ex. (before changing out the players)

Most managers have a certain type of brand of football the play.

How long would you give Guardiola, or any other manager coming in to adapt our playstyle with this squad? A season of transition? More? Less?

 

A genuine question. I feel like there's an expectation on Howe that because he's been here 4 years that implementing big changes should happen quickly. I don't think that's realistic.

[Displayname]

Just now, LiquidAK said:

How long would you give Guardiola, or any other manager coming in to adapt our playstyle with this squad? A season of transition? More? Less?

 

A genuine question. I feel like there's an expectation on Howe that because he's been here 4 years that implementing big changes should happen quickly. I don't think that's realistic.

Longer than a year for sure. I don't think you got my point. 

The point was that even with all the experience Guardiola has, changing his playstyle to fit our players would not be an easy thing. Managers totally changing their brand of football is not really a thing.

[LiquidAK]

1 minute ago, Displayname said:

Longer than a year for sure. I don't think you got my point. 

The point was that even with all the experience Guardiola has, changing his playstyle to fit our players would not be an easy thing. Managers totally changing their brand of football is not really a thing.

I don't agree with that. Guardiola's Man City doesn't play the same as his Barcelona - similarities for sure but he's evolved over the years. There's maybe even an interesting comparison to be drawn between adapting to a very different style of centre forward in Haaland and what Howe needs to find the solution to with Woltemade.

 

I think we fundamentally disagree that a manager is going to be locked in to a specific way of playing and will struggle to evolve it. Howe is clearly trying to evolve his, time will tell if he's successful - my money is on he will be.

 

[Stuy_O]

Are we trying to change style? Or have teams figured out press is virtually non existent if they let us have the ball and that if you limit space on transition we struggle immensely? 
 

We may be be tweaking for the sake of a heavy workload , but I’m not sure the change is deliberate. 

[Interpolic]

Any of our own fans still using Bournemouth's relegation as a stick to beat Howe with

 

They were second bottom of League Two when he first took over, i.e. 91st in the country. From 91st to 16th in the PL, then 9th, 12th, 14th and yes 18th, getting relegated on goal difference. 

 

Bournemouth's ground holds 11k people, they are a historically tiny club who had no business being there. And he clearly left them in a decent enough spot given their PL presence afterwards. 

 

His tenure at Bournemouth was a miraculous success and he had them there playing good football, ripping up the route one style of successful newly promoted sides before them. 

 

It's been 4 years, 1 trophy, 2 CL campaigns, some of our best moments ever supporting this club yet some still sneer at him like Steve Bruce did because his journey wasn't as glamorous as you'd like. Good company, lads. 

[Lush Vlad]

35 minutes ago, Stuy_O said:

Are we trying to change style? Or have teams figured out press is virtually non existent if they let us have the ball and that if you limit space on transition we struggle immensely? 
 

We may be be tweaking for the sake of a heavy workload , but I’m not sure the change is deliberate. 

 

They're not mutually exclusive, are they? 

 

I think teams have realised for a while we struggle against a low block.  I'm sure if you searched that term and went back to the 4th placed season, even.  You would see complaints about that.  All teams struggle against it to some degree.  But they often find a way to get a goal from a bit of magic, someone that can find that pass between multiple defenders, a long range goal, scoring from set pieces all the while like Arsenal do.  But we do seem particularly bad at it.

 

I also think certain teams figured out how to get round our press and they can quite easily get at the back 4 once they beat the first wave.  So Howe could have looked to tweak how we do it, how often we do it to try and combat this in some way.  I still see the CB's pushing high, leaving our front 3 up on the edge of the box, the midfielders pushing on into the box with their man, when required.  It's not totally gone away.  Someone who is great with stats on here, I forget who.  Posted some numbers up, albeit from a month or so back.  Showing that our defensive metrics in regards to high pressing, ball recoveries, shot creating actions etc.  Weren't down at all and in some areas, were actually up.  May have changed since, of course.

 

Using the eye test.  We are certainly not as good at it as before and it doesn't seem like we do it as regularly or with such intensity.  Which I am guessing is down to the schedule, more than anything.  Along with the league shifting more back towards physicality, a more direct approach and relying heavily on set pieces.  Teams seem happy to play for long throws and corners now, more than ever. 

 

I read quite a few posters yesterday saying the same about our physical levels, so I'll plagiarise them here.  Other teams have now caught up a bit, so we can't bully them.  Along with our own levels being lower due to the workload.  I think we have lost some speed going both ways because of this, too.  We often look sluggish getting back in to defend when the press us bypassed and I think we have quite a few players who are generally just a bit slow in the team now.  

[The College Dropout]

It's a league wide phenom btw.

 

Teams are also playing it out from the back a little less and when they do they are better at it.

 

A lot more teams are respecting us as a big team. Giving us the ball, being fairly direct and asking us to break them down home and away.

 

I don't think we planned to become a possession side. You don't make our summer signings if you do. A lot of us said we needed a player or two to put their foot on the ball.

[Displayname]

1 minute ago, LiquidAK said:

I don't agree with that. Guardiola's Man City doesn't play the same as his Barcelona - similarities for sure but he's evolved over the years. There's maybe even an interesting comparison to be drawn between adapting to a very different style of centre forward in Haaland and what Howe needs to find the solution to with Woltemade.

 

I think we fundamentally disagree that a manager is going to be locked in to a specific way of playing and will struggle to evolve it. Howe is clearly trying to evolve his, time will tell if he's successful - my money is on he will be.

 

I said totally change it, Guardiola is still playing with a possesion based style. 

Eddie has been successfull with an intensive hard-pressing style. 

 

Yes time will tell if he will successfully adapt. I don't think he will in regards to changing the playstyle, think he would have a better shot at keeping the playstyle but being better with working in big rotations.