Eddie Howe

[timeEd32]

I think people are forgetting how dire it got. Coming out of an international break in late November we played the following games with these benches: 

 

Chelsea home: Dubravka, Karius, Gillespie, Ritchie, Dummett, A. Murphy, Ndiweni, Diallo, Parkinson

 

3 days later...

 

PSG away: Dubravka, Karius, Dummett, Hall, Huntley, Ndiweni, Parkinson

 

4 days later...

 

Man United home: Dubravka, Karius, Ritchie, Dummett, Krafth, Hall, A. Murphy, Diallo, Parkinson

 

5 days later...

 

Everton away: Karius, Gillespie, Dummett, Hall, Krafth, Ritchie, A. Murphy, Diallo, Parkinson

 

3 days later...

 

Spurs away: Karius, Gillespie, Dummett, A. Murphy, Krafth, Ritchie, Hall, Longstaff, Wilson

 

----------

 

We played 5 games in 15 days against mostly good teams with a 'break glass in case of emergency only' type of bench. We also lost our goalkeeper in the middle of that stretch, which I think we're all realizing is probably an even bigger loss than originally feared. We had exactly 11 genuine first team players give their all for almost 300 minutes of football in a week and then we paid the price for it for a month. 

 

The six games we had to play in the next 21 days off the back of this have defined our season to this point -- we went out of Europe, we went out of the League Cup, and we had our worst run in the league with losses to Luton and Forest. 

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

Again, we have 1 player on record saying he rushed himself back to fitness. Go and listen to his podcast. That is actual evidence against "being cautious with injuries". We know for a fact, Joelinton continued to play despite picking up what turned out to be a season-ending injury.

 

These 2 things are not opinions these are facts.

I've listened to Wilson's podcast on multiple occasions and would say it’s decent entertainment but not terribly informative or illuminating. There’s also a difference between being rushed back and playing earlier than they’d have preferred. But as with every conversation on the internet, there’s never any nuance ?‍?

[The College Dropout]

4 hours ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

I've listened to Wilson's podcast on multiple occasions and would say it’s decent entertainment but not terribly informative or illuminating. There’s also a difference between being rushed back and playing earlier than they’d have preferred. But as with every conversation on the internet, there’s never any nuance ?‍?

You have not listened to the episode I’m referring too.  He explicitly says he rushed himself back when he wasn’t ready and that’s why he got injured again.  Those are his own words and he was clear. 
 

And you are refusing to accept it. Just read what you wrote.  Does that make sense to you?

[Vinny Green Balls]

20 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Thanks

 

The point obviously was that Howe isn’t a young manager - most managers who are successful are actually successful at this point.  Doesn’t mean he won’t win things with us, but he’s not a whippersnapper

People still underestimate what Howe did with Bournemouth. Pep had the reins handed to him given his status at Barcelona. Just happened that he is brilliant as well.

 

Anyway, 46 is still fairly young for managers.

[Cronky]

31 minutes ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

People still underestimate what Howe did with Bournemouth. Pep had the reins handed to him given his status at Barcelona. Just happened that he is brilliant as well.

 

Anyway, 46 is still fairly young for managers.

 

I'd say he's still young in terms of his ambition, energy and desire to improve. It's interesting that he says he looks for a desire for self-improvement in assessing players, because that's very much part of his own make-up.

 

Age isn't just a matter of years - it's the freshness that you bring to your job, and that's still very much there.

 

It's striking that he spent 10 years in his first job - if you discount that brief spell at Burnley. He also looks committed to a long stay here. I sense that even if the likes of Chelsea or Man U came knocking, he'd be reluctant to leave. Family is important to him, and perhaps he doesn't want to be carting them round the country, or being absent from them during the week, as some managers end up doing. He's the antithesis of the 'large than life' football manager, but beneath the exterior there's that passion to succeed.

 

I think what I'm driving at is you can't assess this man by the usual criteria. It's like he's self-made.

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

People still underestimate what Howe did with Bournemouth. Pep had the reins handed to him given his status at Barcelona. Just happened that he is brilliant as well.

 

Anyway, 46 is still fairly young for managers.

Tbf I did say earlier that I wasn’t looking to knock his achievements at Bournemouth - his track record there was incredible.  Not suggesting that Howe isn’t a top manager - but it is the case that most of the top managers in the game had actually embedded themselves in history at that age - a decent number (Michels, Sacchi, Clough, Mourinho, Benitez etc) pretty much had their best years behind them at that point. 

[RS]

2 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Tbf I did say earlier that I wasn’t looking to knock his achievements at Bournemouth - his track record there was incredible.  Not suggesting that Howe isn’t a top manager - but it is the case that most of the top managers in the game had actually embedded themselves in history at that age - a decent number (Michels, Sacchi, Clough, Mourinho, Benitez etc) pretty much had their best years behind them at that point. 

Howe has pretty much spent his whole career managing shite football clubs. And we were an absolute parcel of shite when he took over. 

[Shearergol]

Callum Wilson on his most recent injury:

Quote

 

"I'm fine. I had a leg injury and missed a lot of games. When I came back, I hurt my calf.

"After two weeks, you play four or five 90-minute games." No one is to blame; it was just the way things turned out.

"I would volunteer to play every game if they asked me again." There are times when that could hurt me. I wouldn't change anything

 

 

Howe out.

[STM]

17 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Based on the evidence - I don't think this is true.

 

We have a player on record - saying he rushed himself back to fitness. We've seen Joelinton & Gordon visibly injured and continue to play with Joelinton's injury a season-ender. We've also seen several players look unfit for several games at a time. And many players playing on despite clearly being exhausted.

 

We have several instances of players coming back and being injured again within 6 games. We have several instances of players playing until they pick up fatigue loaded injuries.

 

Again, I like Eddie a lot. Happy that he's in charge. But I think he's made several strategic and tactical mistakes that have contributed to a lot of our issues.

 

 

I don't think there's any doubt we've rushed players back. It would have to be one helluva coincidence that Isak and Wilson are miraculously back when the other gets crocked.

 

However....

 

For years players have played through pain barriers or have come back early because of injury crisis. Its a gamble and a gamble that has failed for us. I'm not sure it's a stick to beat Howe with mind. He's almost certainly taking advice from his medical team on this.

 

Also, alot of our injuries have been freak ones. Pope (shoulder), Burn (back), Anderson (back), Barnes (toe) and then Tonalis suspension (we won't go over old ground).

 

There's 5 missing before a medical decision has been made. That puts us on the back foot from the start.

 

I think we certainly could have dealt with Isak and Willock better. Wilson we only have ourselves to blame. He's a crock, always has been. We  need to learn our lesson.

[Lazarus]

17 minutes ago, STM said:

 

For years players have played through pain barriers or have come back early because of injury crisis. Its a gamble and a gamble that has failed for us. I'm not sure it's a stick to beat Howe with mind. He's almost certainly taking advice from his medical team on this.

 

 

Didnt Shola play for years with a hip (?) problem?

[Lotus]

18 hours ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Also we don’t know if players have been rushed back and we don’t know if rotating in random kids would have made any difference whatsoever. 

This i very much agree with because kids are never tried. 
Personally don’t consider Tino to be random and he’s one at least I would have thought would have seen a bit more pitch time but up to now, EH hasn’t thought so. 
We’ll see how it plays out through the rest of the season. 

[TheBrownBottle]

57 minutes ago, Shearergol said:

Callum Wilson on his most recent injury:

 

Howe out.

Wilson would be philosophical tbf - the bloke spends half his life injured 

[Shearergol]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Wilson would be philosophical tbf - the bloke spends half his life injured 

Agree. Needs to be the first player replaced in summer.

[Holmesy]

23 hours ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 Think even last week's result needs some context applying. Luto had just smashed Brighton 4-0 so had their tails right up. And how many other Newcastle teams would have withered away when their 4th went in? 
 

if you’d have said before the Villa game we'll get four points from the next two games, most fans would’ve been very happy with that. Does the fact the three of those four points came at Villa Park instead of at home as expected really change that?

This is spot on re: the points, however, it ignores the things we witnessed with our own eyes. There were clear reasons we were 2-4 down and those reasons have been apparent in other games as well. It was to a large extent self-inflicted. You have to give credit to Luton because they executed a game plan almost perfectly. It was good management on the part of Edwards.
 

But, regardless of the 4 points, we now have a situation where if Forest do a number on us and during that number, Dan Burn in particular has another stinker, dissenting voices will start to grow in numbers and volume. 

 

Football has never been a game where fans look at points in isolation. We examine performances in detail, whether the result is positive or otherwise. Nature of the game. 

[madras]

3 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

This is spot on re: the points, however, it ignores the things we witnessed with our own eyes. There were clear reasons we were 2-4 down and those reasons have been apparent in other games as well. It was to a large extent self-inflicted. You have to give credit to Luton because they executed a game plan almost perfectly. It was good management on the part of Edwards.
 

But, regardless of the 4 points, we now have a situation where if Forest do a number on us and during that number, Dan Burn in particular has another stinker, dissenting voices will start to grow in numbers and volume. 

 

Football has never been a game where fans look at points in isolation. We examine performances in detail, whether the result is positive or otherwise. Nature of the game. 

We don't like. Many a shit performance has been masked by ok results.

[The College Dropout]

38 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Didnt Shola play for years with a hip (?) problem?

Think it was half a season. He never fully recovered physically.

 

57 minutes ago, STM said:

 

I don't think there's any doubt we've rushed players back. It would have to be one helluva coincidence that Isak and Wilson are miraculously back when the other gets crocked.

 

However....

 

For years players have played through pain barriers or have come back early because of injury crisis. Its a gamble and a gamble that has failed for us. I'm not sure it's a stick to beat Howe with mind. He's almost certainly taking advice from his medical team on this.

 

Also, alot of our injuries have been freak ones. Pope (shoulder), Burn (back), Anderson (back), Barnes (toe) and then Tonalis suspension (we won't go over old ground).

 

There's 5 missing before a medical decision has been made. That puts us on the back foot from the start.

 

I think we certainly could have dealt with Isak and Willock better. Wilson we only have ourselves to blame. He's a crock, always has been. We  need to learn our lesson.

This doesn't make sense. You take a risk because you think the upside is greater, it backfires - you accept responsibility and fault for taking that risk.

 

The injuries to key players Willock, Isak, Wilson, Joelinton could've been prevented if we were more cautious with their rehabilitation. Howe has to take some responsibility for that.

 

So when we talk about "bad luck" with injuries - an element of that isn't bad luck. We've knowingly taken risks and they've backfired. That's chickens coming home to roost. So Howe doesn't get a complete pass on the injury front.

 

I understand why Howe made the decisions he did. I just think a lot of his decisions have been short-sighted and not worked anyway.

 

I hope he learns and improves going forward.

[madras]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Think it was half a season. He never fully recovered physically.

 

This doesn't make sense. You take a risk because you think the upside is greater, it backfires - you accept responsibility and fault for taking that risk.

 

The injuries to key players Willock, Isak, Wilson, Joelinton could've been prevented if we were more cautious with their rehabilitation. Howe has to take some responsibility for that.

 

So when we talk about "bad luck" with injuries - an element of that isn't bad luck. We've knowingly taken risks and they've backfired. That's chickens coming home to roost. So Howe doesn't get a complete pass on the injury front.

 

I understand why Howe made the decisions he did. I just think a lot of his decisions have been short-sighted and not worked anyway.

 

I hope he learns and improves going forward.

So when do you risk players who have injuries or do you never do it ?

[The College Dropout]

4 minutes ago, madras said:

We don't like. Many a shit performance has been masked by ok results.

I think many have realised this. Take PSG or Chelsea away in, second half. We ended up being unlucky because of mistakes/referee calls. But lots of people acknowledged that we barely played any football for the last 20 minutes of those.

[The College Dropout]

Just now, madras said:

So when do you risk players who have injuries or do you never do it ?

.... make sure they are fully fit or close before bringing them back in???

 

Is that a novel concept or something?

[madras]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

.... make sure they are fully fit or close before bringing them back in???

 

Is that a novel concept or something?

So they have access to the info of if they can play or not, expert assessment etc. 

 

What was your opinion on your examination of them ?

[TheBrownBottle]

18 minutes ago, Shearergol said:

Agree. Needs to be the first player replaced in summer.

Hate to say it, but I think you’re right.  When fit, he’s the second best proper no.9 I’ve seen in B&W tbh.  But he’s just a nightmare for injuries. 

[The College Dropout]

Just now, madras said:

So they have access to the info of if they can play or not, expert assessment etc. 

 

What was your opinion on your examination of them ?

Like i've said repeatedly. Callum Wilson is on record saying he rushed himself back before he was fully fit and was overloaded with too many minutes in too short a time before he got reinjured.

 

Some people think football is more advanced and complicated than it is. There's only so much physios and scans can tell. A lot of it depends on how a player feels and what he says. Players often declare themselves fit and if they can battle through a fitness test - they will play. They may still feel discomfort because the injury isn't fully healed, and they may be over fatigued - but they are pushing through. When I listen to current and ex-footballers talk about injuries and coming back - a lot of it is just declaring themselves fit - no expert examination. It's down to the player and the manager in the main. The same was true of concussions before the protocol came in.

 

This is conjecture on my part. But I think we have a culture that encourages players to push themselves to return quickly from injury. Again, I remember a twitter ITK saying Schar wouldn't start one match. He did start... and came off within 15 minutes. I think the injury was known by medical staff and Howe before the game but they thought Schar could battle through and play the game. They took a risk on the injury. It didn't work and he couldn't play. Fortunately, it was a minor thing and he was back the next game. For me, that is evidence of our high-risk tolerance towards injuries. With that high-risk tolerance towards injuries - it's not pure bad luck when we get an injury crisis. How could it be? We've taken a bunch of risks.

[madras]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Like i've said repeatedly. Callum Wilson is on record saying he rushed himself back before he was fully fit and was overloaded with too many minutes in too short a time before he got reinjured.

 

Some people think football is more advanced and complicated than it is. There's only so much physios and scans can tell. A lot of it depends on how a player feels and what he says. Players often declare themselves fit and if they can battle through a fitness test - they will play. They may still feel discomfort because the injury isn't fully healed, and they may be over fatigued - but they are pushing through. When I listen to current and ex-footballers talk about injuries and coming back - a lot of it is just declaring themselves fit - no expert examination. It's down to the player and the manager in the main. The same was true of concussions before the protocol came in.

 

This is conjecture on my part. But I think we have a culture that encourages players to push themselves to return quickly from injury. Again, I remember a twitter ITK saying Schar wouldn't start one match. He did start... and came off within 15 minutes. I think the injury was known by medical staff and Howe before the game but they thought Schar could battle through and play the game. They took a risk on the injury. It didn't work and he couldn't play. Fortunately, it was a minor thing and he was back the next game. For me, that is evidence of our high-risk tolerance towards injuries. With that high-risk tolerance towards injuries - it's not pure bad luck when we get an injury crisis. How could it be? We've taken a bunch of risks.

So at the time Wilson must have said he was OK to go and only afterwards came to the realisation, after aggravating it, that he'd overdone it ?

 

At this point of the season many players will be carrying injuries, most we wont know about.

[The College Dropout]

I disagree on Wilson. I just think we need to manage his fitness player. Treat him like the injury-prone player he is. I remember in his last couple of seasons at Arsenal, RVP didn't play twice in a week. He stopped picking up injuries. Wilson wasn't injured towards the end of last season because his minutes were managed well.

 

With Barnes back, we can use Gordon as a striker option to ease the burden on the lads.

 

People are fed up with Wilson and lost patience. But Isak is in the same boat. He's been injured as often as Wilson since he joined. Because he's the star boy and the darling people aren't getting on to him but the same thing happens with Isak. He's another - his minutes need managing otherwise he will keep breaking down. I keep saying this but I think we are a winger option short IMO. We need to be able to use Gordon wherever he is needed or to give him a rest.

 

 

Edited February 9 by The College Dropout

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, madras said:

So at the time Wilson must have said he was OK to go and only afterwards came to the realisation, after aggravating it, that he'd overdone it ?

 

At this point of the season many players will be carrying injuries, most we wont know about.

No. He said, he knew he wasn't ready but Alex got injured, the team needed him, so he declared himself fit. If Alex hadn't gone down, Wilson wouldn't have declared himself fit.

 

Howe has managed Wilson for what? 6 or 7 years? He knows him well. He knows he's a good lad, a proper professional who will sacrifice his body for the betterment of the team. It's Howe's job to protect the player's longevity for the medium-term betterment of the team. He didn't. He played him 90 minutes, game after game until his injury-prone, only fit striker broke down again. That's poor management.

 

Every single outfield player with regular minutes has been injured this season. Every last one (except Bruno actually). It's not just bad luck. It's a lack of due care.