Guest HTT II Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 58 minutes ago, Kimbo said: I think Klopp’s impact at Liverpool has been bigger than Guardiola’s at Man City, he’s done it with less money, and he’s also managed successfully at a lower level which I think should mean something. Overall I’d say Pep. But if we are going off PL only, it has to be Klopp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 I’ve stated before I think OGS has done a good job at Man Utd, but give him our team and he’d be Bruce levels of awfulness. He’d take us down for example. That’s the level he needs to be looked at in comparison with others. I don’t know much about the new Wolves manager or the Brentford manager really. Id take OGS ahead of Farke and Smith, however, who have both departed their respective clubs over the weekend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 I would rank them by the pets they have, dogs 5points (bonus points for certain breeds), cats -5 points, exotics 3 points, Birds 1 point (birds of prey 10points), farmyard animals 1 point. Fish aren't pets, they are ornaments you feed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjohnson Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, HTT II said: I’ve stated before I think OGS has done a good job at Man Utd, but give him our team and he’d be Bruce levels of awfulness. He’d take us down for example. That’s the level he needs to be looked at in comparison with others. I don’t know much about the new Wolves manager or the Brentford manager really. Id take OGS ahead of Farke and Smith, however, who have both departed their respective clubs over the weekend. He probably is pretty good, but he doesn't have Klopp/Pep reputation. He's got a fairly average team not a million miles away from the top. Rep is probably distorted by the money spent . No doubt he would take our lot down though Edited November 8, 2021 by gjohnson Correction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 1) Klopp 2) Tuchel 3) Conte 4) Guardiola 5) Bielsa 6) Benitez 7) Rodgers 8) Moyes 9) Potter 10) Arteta 11) Lage 12) Vieira 13) Howe 14) Dyche 15) Ranieri 16) Hasenhuttl 17) Frank 18) Solskjaer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza ladra Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 1) Pepe 2) Klopp 3)Tuchel 4) Conte 5) Rafa 6) Bielsa 7) Rodgers 8) Moyes 9) Howe 10) Vieira 11) Ranieri 12) Lage 13) Potter 14) Arteta 15) Hassenhuttl 16) Dyche 17) Frank 18) Solskjaer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Vieira top 10 manager with a 25% win ratio. Baffling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Oh, howe the wum has turned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Rich said: Oh, howe the wum has turned. you don't have it in you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Gonna get back in my lane and pull together average rankings from everyone so we can have a definitive N-O ranking list. Then it’ll be official. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 Ability and achievement: Who I'd want managing Newcastle: Klopp 1. Klopp Guardiola 2. Tuchel Tuchel 3. Guardiola Conte 4. Rodgers Rodgers 5. Potter Potter 6. Conte Moyes 7. Arteta Bielsa 8. Bielsa Benitez 9. Howe Arteta 10. Moyes Dyche 11. Vieira Ranieri 12. Hasenhuttl Hasenhuttl 13. Benitez Vieira 14. Gerrard Howe 15. Frank Frank 16. Lage Gerrard 17. Ranieri Lage 18. Dyche Smith 19. Smith Solskjaer 20. Solskjaer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 25 minutes ago, Clark said: Ability and achievement: Who I'd want managing Newcastle: Klopp 1. Klopp Guardiola 2. Tuchel Tuchel 3. Guardiola Conte 4. Rodgers Rodgers 5. Potter Potter 6. Conte Moyes 7. Arteta Bielsa 8. Bielsa Benitez 9. Howe Arteta 10. Moyes Dyche 11. Vieira Ranieri 12. Hasenhuttl Hasenhuttl 13. Benitez Vieira 14. Gerrard Howe 15. Frank Frank 16. Lage Gerrard 17. Ranieri Lage 18. Dyche Smith 19. Smith Solskjaer 20. Solskjaer How is Viera & Arteta above Howe in the achievement list? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 32 minutes ago, 54 said: How is Viera & Arteta above Howe in the achievement list? It's an ABILITY and achievement list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanji Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 1. Howe nobody else matters anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 10 hours ago, Clark said: It's an ABILITY and achievement list. Yes so how is Vieira above Howe? Sacked from Nice and now sitting with a 27% win percentage with Palace. Howe took Bournemouth from -17 points in the conference to the Premier League. Convinced people are thinking of him as a player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Froggy said: Yes so how is Vieira above Howe? Sacked from Nice and now sitting with a 27% win percentage with Palace. Howe took Bournemouth from -17 points in the conference to the Premier League. Convinced people are thinking of him as a player. Howe didn't take Bournemouth from -17 points in the Conference to the Premier League... Eddie Howe was appointed Bournemouth manager on the 31st December 2008, the club being 23rd in League 2 and only 7 points from safety... You don't know what you're talking about. Patrick Vieira has managed NYFC leaving with a 44.44% win percentage and OGC Nice with a 39.33% win percentage, that's after managing 179 games, not a measly 12 games like he has for Crystal Palace, imagine judging someone's ability after 12 games... Silly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizero Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Clark said: Howe didn't take Bournemouth from -17 points in the Conference to the Premier League... Eddie Howe was appointed Bournemouth manager on the 31st December 2008, the club being 23rd in League 2 and only 7 points from safety... You don't know what you're talking about. Patrick Vieira has managed NYFC leaving with a 44.44% win percentage and OGC Nice with a 39.33% win percentage, that's after managing 179 games, not a measly 12 games like he has for Crystal Palace, imagine judging someone's ability after 12 games... Silly. I mean, sure, Froggy wrote the wrong division. Not really sure how your counter-argument does anything other than back up Froggy's argument, though Ronny Deila, failed Celtic manager, is currently outperforming Viera at NYCFC after replacing him. Galtier currently has a 53.85% win percentage with OGC Nice. Edited November 16, 2021 by Kaizero Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 Just now, Kaizero said: I mean, sure, Froggt wrote the wrong division. Not really sure how your counter-argument does anything other than back up Froggy's argument, though All of his argument was based on invalid reasoning and false evidence... He had Howe taking over Bournemouth in a completely different league, with a completely different points deficit... While he judged Vieira on his results from his 12 games Crystal Palace manager, pretty much ignoring the other 179 games he managed at other clubs... Nothing he said "backed up" his own argument so I'm really struggling to see how you came to your conclusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizero Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Clark said: All of his argument was based on invalid reasoning and false evidence... He had Howe taking over Bournemouth in a completely different league, with a completely different points deficit... While he judged Vieira on his results from his 12 games Crystal Palace manager, pretty much ignoring the other 179 games he managed at other clubs... Nothing he said "backed up" his own argument so I'm really struggling to see how you came to your conclusion. He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument, you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post. Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable. However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts. Viera has not done as expected performance wise at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson, which makes it more than fair for Froggy to question why people are placing Viera so far up when there's no managerial evidence in his career to back that rating up. Edited November 16, 2021 by Kaizero Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Kaizero said: He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument, you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post. Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable. However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts. Viera has been a failure at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson, which makes it more than fair for Froggy to question why people are placing Viera so far up when there's no managerial evidence in his career to back that rating up. 'He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument' What are you talking about buddy? 'you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post' You edited your post, that's your fault not mine. 'Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable' Where did I refute that? Can you quote me? I believe I refuted the claim that Howe took Bournemouth from the Conference to the Premier League with a -17 point deficit and I refuted that claim because it's false... 'However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts' This is a debate buddy, facts matter, he got the facts wrong, he's uninformed, you cannot make a claim that Howe is better than Vieira, get all of you reasoning/evidence wrong and still expect to have your claim accepted, that's not how debating/arguments works. 'Viera has been a failure at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson' I've been over this buddy, it's 12 games, incredibly small sample size, silly argument. Edited November 16, 2021 by Clark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizero Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, Clark said: 'He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument' What are you talking about buddy? 'you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post' You edited your post, that's your fault not mine. 'Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable' Where did I refute that? Can you quote me? I believe I refuted the claim that Howe took Bournemouth from the Conference to the Premier League with a -17 point deficit and I refuted that claim because it's false... 'However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts' This is a debate buddy, facts matter, he got the facts wrong, he's uninformed, you cannot make a claim that Howe is better than Vieira, get all of you reasoning/evidence wrong and still expect to have your claim accepted, that's not how debating/arguments works. 'Viera has been a failure at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson' I've been over this buddy, it's 12 games, incredibly small sample size, silly argument. He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address. The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response. I never said you refuted that at all. He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument. If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details, please explain where in Viera's career so far we are to accept that he has done enough to warrant being listed above Howe on your list. And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games. It may well turn out that Viera is a better manager than Howe, only time can be the judge of that. But that wasn't the argument though, the argument was a question posed at you as to why you place Viera above Howe. So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjohnson Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 11 minutes ago, Kaizero said: He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address. The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response. I never said you refuted that at all. He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument. If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details, please explain where in Viera's career so far we are to accept that he has done enough to warrant being listed above Howe on your list. And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games. It may well turn out that Viera is a better manager than Howe, only time can be the judge of that. But that wasn't the argument though, the argument was a question posed at you as to why you place Viera above Howe. So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit. Fancy name, a bit of experience abroad. Smoke and mirrors. A good manager is a good manager. Vieira is 'ok' but gets a lot more leeway because of his name. If he was called Billy Smith from Croydon with the same experience and ability he would have already been sacked, despite the fact he wouldn't have got the job in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Kaizero said: He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address. The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response. I never said you refuted that at all. He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument. If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details, please explain where in Viera's career so far we are to accept that he has done enough to warrant being listed above Howe on your list. And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games. It may well turn out that Viera is a better manager than Howe, only time can be the judge of that. But that wasn't the argument though, the argument was a question posed at you as to why you place Viera above Howe. So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit. 'He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.' The counter argument was me attacking his fabricated reasoning. Informed vs uninformed. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about and yet he was trying to question my ranking. It was the perfect counter argument. 'The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response' You're causing this to become circular, I didn't ignore your argument, you posted an unfinished thought/argument, I responded to that, that's a you problem, not a me problem, read your comment before posting... 'I never said you refuted that at all' Then why make a point of it? Why say it? The sky is blue, that is an irrefutable fact... Eddie Howe took Bournemouth to the Premier league, that is an irrefutable fact! Yeah, I know... And? 'He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument' Again circular... He can't make that claim... Because he was uninformed... That was my counter... This is becoming incredibly tedious, repetitive and boring. 'If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details' I've addressed EVERY POINT (that wasn't edited after the fact), you see how I'm quoting every line and responding to every one of those quotes right? You're now bordering on lying to try and prove a point... 'And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games.' And I wouldn't judge Nuno's or de Boer's entire managerial career on 5-10 games and I would call anyone who does, silly... 'So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit' Let's end the previous points first before moving on to that larger topic. My counter argument was 100% accurate and justified, the initial poster was completely uninformed and I have addressed every point up until the last question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizero Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 14 minutes ago, Clark said: 'He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.' The counter argument was me attacking his fabricated reasoning. Informed vs uninformed. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about and yet he was trying to question my ranking. It was the perfect counter argument. 'The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response' You're causing this to become circular, I didn't ignore your argument, you posted an unfinished thought/argument, I responded to that, that's a you problem, not a me problem, read your comment before posting... 'I never said you refuted that at all' Then why make a point of it? Why say it? The sky is blue, that is an irrefutable fact... Eddie Howe took Bournemouth to the Premier league, that is an irrefutable fact! Yeah, I know... And? 'He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument' Again circular... He can't make that claim... Because he was uninformed... That was my counter... This is becoming incredibly tedious, repetitive and boring. 'If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details' I've addressed EVERY POINT (that wasn't edited after the fact), you see how I'm quoting every line and responding to every one of those quotes right? You're now bordering on lying to try and prove a point... 'And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games.' And I wouldn't judge Nuno's or de Boer's entire managerial career on 5-10 games and I would call anyone who does, silly... 'So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit' Let's end the previous points first before moving on to that larger topic. My counter argument was 100% accurate and justified, the initial poster was completely uninformed and I have addressed every point up until the last question. In all honesty, in my sixteen or something years on this forum, this is the dumbest post I've ever read. He clearly states his argument, his argument doesn't fall on presenting something erroneously. Especially something that is so obvious to understand what he meant. If anything, focusing on that just goes to confirm you have no argument as you have continously been asked your opinion as to why Viera is better than Howe, and your only reasoning so far is essentially: "He said something wrong" and "You edited your post to include points that better backed up your argument, so therefore, due to the fact you edited your post - the points stated does not have any validity in this argment." It's dumb, please stop it. You have not addressed the following: The main and initial question, to you, Clark: Why do you believe Viera is better than Howe? The second question raised through adding points to the initial argument, what is your thought on all Viera's replacements performing better than he did in the clubs he left when it comes to portraying him as a manager with a better ability than Howe? Those are the questions. The questions are not "What do you think of Froggy writing something in error" or "What do you think of Kaizero editing his post to add more points to his argument". Please refrain from not answering the actual questions this time. It's a waste of time and no doubt of annoyance to everyone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza ladra Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 Vieria has done very well with Palace this season. Froggy has wheeled out this 25% win percentage a couple times to make his opinion a factual certainty. Yes, Palace have had a lot of draws. But they have also had a very tough schedule. I think the most difficult in the league. They have lost twice : Liverpool and Chelsea, both away. They drew at Arsenal and West Ham and just beat Man City away. He's doing a great job this season. He also did quite well in the US and France. It's not a matter of smoke and mirrors or him getting a pass because of his name. I wouldn't rate him higher than Howe myself, but when I look at the list of current premier league managers he's nowhere near the bottom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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