How would you rank the current PL Managers?

[Guest HTT II]

58 minutes ago, Kimbo said:

I think Klopp’s impact at Liverpool has been bigger than Guardiola’s at Man City, he’s done it with less money, and he’s also managed successfully at a lower level which I think should mean something.

Overall I’d say Pep. But if we are going off PL only, it has to be Klopp. 

[Guest HTT II]

I’ve stated before I think OGS has done a good job at Man Utd, but give him our team and he’d be Bruce levels of awfulness. He’d take us down for example. That’s the level he needs to be looked at in comparison with others. I don’t know much about the new Wolves manager or the Brentford manager really. Id take OGS ahead of Farke and Smith, however, who have both departed their respective clubs over the weekend. 

[madras]

I would rank them by the pets they have, dogs 5points (bonus points for certain breeds), cats -5 points, exotics 3 points, Birds 1 point (birds of prey 10points), farmyard animals 1 point. Fish aren't pets, they are ornaments you feed.

[gjohnson]

19 minutes ago, HTT II said:

I’ve stated before I think OGS has done a good job at Man Utd, but give him our team and he’d be Bruce levels of awfulness. He’d take us down for example. That’s the level he needs to be looked at in comparison with others. I don’t know much about the new Wolves manager or the Brentford manager really. Id take OGS ahead of Farke and Smith, however, who have both departed their respective clubs over the weekend. 

He probably is pretty good, but he doesn't have Klopp/Pep reputation. He's got a fairly average team not a million miles away from the top.

 

Rep is probably distorted by the money spent . No doubt he would take our lot down though

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by gjohnson
Correction

[Rich]

1) Klopp

2) Tuchel

3) Conte

4) Guardiola
5) Bielsa

6) Benitez

7) Rodgers

8) Moyes

9) Potter

10) Arteta

11) Lage

12) Vieira
13) Howe

14) Dyche

15) Ranieri

16) Hasenhuttl

17) Frank

18) Solskjaer

[gazza ladra]

1) Pepe

2) Klopp

3)Tuchel

4) Conte
5) Rafa

6) Bielsa

7) Rodgers 

8) Moyes

9) Howe

10) Vieira

11) Ranieri

12) Lage

13) Potter

14) Arteta

15) Hassenhuttl

16) Dyche

17) Frank

18) Solskjaer

[Froggy]

Vieira top 10 manager with a 25% win ratio.

 

Baffling. 

[Rich]

Oh, howe the wum has turned.

[Froggy]

1 minute ago, Rich said:

Oh, howe the wum has turned.

 

you don't have it in you. 

[Rich]

 

Gonna get back in my lane and pull together average rankings from everyone so we can have a definitive N-O ranking list. Then it’ll be official.

[Clark]

Ability and achievement:                                     Who I'd want managing Newcastle:

1. Klopp                                                            1. Klopp
2. Guardiola                                                     2. Tuchel
3. Tuchel                                                          3. Guardiola
4. Conte                                                           4. Rodgers
5. Rodgers                                                       5. Potter
6. Potter                                                           6. Conte
7. Moyes                                                           7. Arteta 

8. Bielsa                                                            8. Bielsa

9. Benitez                                                         9. Howe

10. Arteta                                                           10. Moyes

11. Dyche                                                           11. Vieira

12. Ranieri                                                          12. Hasenhuttl

13. Hasenhuttl                                                   13. Benitez

14. Vieira                                                            14. Gerrard

15. Howe                                                            15. Frank

16. Frank                                                            16. Lage

17. Gerrard                                                         17. Ranieri

18. Lage                                                              18. Dyche 

19. Smith                                                            19. Smith

20. Solskjaer                                                       20. Solskjaer   

[54]

25 minutes ago, Clark said:

Ability and achievement:                                     Who I'd want managing Newcastle:

1. Klopp                                                            1. Klopp
2. Guardiola                                                     2. Tuchel
3. Tuchel                                                          3. Guardiola
4. Conte                                                           4. Rodgers
5. Rodgers                                                       5. Potter
6. Potter                                                           6. Conte
7. Moyes                                                           7. Arteta 

8. Bielsa                                                            8. Bielsa

9. Benitez                                                         9. Howe

10. Arteta                                                           10. Moyes

11. Dyche                                                           11. Vieira

12. Ranieri                                                          12. Hasenhuttl

13. Hasenhuttl                                                   13. Benitez

14. Vieira                                                            14. Gerrard

15. Howe                                                            15. Frank

16. Frank                                                            16. Lage

17. Gerrard                                                         17. Ranieri

18. Lage                                                              18. Dyche 

19. Smith                                                            19. Smith

20. Solskjaer                                                       20. Solskjaer   

How is Viera & Arteta above Howe in the achievement list?  

[Clark]

32 minutes ago, 54 said:

How is Viera & Arteta above Howe in the achievement list?  

It's an ABILITY and achievement list.

[Kanj]

1. Howe 

 

nobody else matters anymore. 

[Froggy]

10 hours ago, Clark said:

It's an ABILITY and achievement list.

 

Yes so how is Vieira above Howe?  Sacked from Nice and now sitting with a 27% win percentage with Palace. Howe took Bournemouth from -17 points in the conference to the Premier League.

 

Convinced people are thinking of him as a player. 

[Clark]

3 hours ago, Froggy said:

 

Yes so how is Vieira above Howe?  Sacked from Nice and now sitting with a 27% win percentage with Palace. Howe took Bournemouth from -17 points in the conference to the Premier League.

 

Convinced people are thinking of him as a player. 

Howe didn't take Bournemouth from -17 points in the Conference to the Premier League... Eddie Howe was appointed Bournemouth manager on the 31st December 2008, the club being 23rd in League 2 and only 7 points from safety... You don't know what you're talking about.

 

Patrick Vieira has managed NYFC leaving with a 44.44% win percentage and OGC Nice with a 39.33% win percentage, that's after managing 179 games, not a measly 12 games like he has for Crystal Palace, imagine judging someone's ability after 12 games... Silly. 

[Kaizero]

4 minutes ago, Clark said:

Howe didn't take Bournemouth from -17 points in the Conference to the Premier League... Eddie Howe was appointed Bournemouth manager on the 31st December 2008, the club being 23rd in League 2 and only 7 points from safety... You don't know what you're talking about.

 

Patrick Vieira has managed NYFC leaving with a 44.44% win percentage and OGC Nice with a 39.33% win percentage, that's after managing 179 games, not a measly 12 games like he has for Crystal Palace, imagine judging someone's ability after 12 games... Silly. 

 

I mean, sure, Froggy wrote the wrong division. Not really sure how your counter-argument does anything other than back up Froggy's argument, though   Ronny Deila, failed Celtic manager, is currently outperforming Viera at NYCFC after replacing him. Galtier currently has a 53.85% win percentage with OGC Nice.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Kaizero

[Clark]

Just now, Kaizero said:

 

I mean, sure, Froggt wrote the wrong division. Not really sure how your counter-argument does anything other than back up Froggy's argument, though  

All of his argument was based on invalid reasoning and false evidence... He had Howe taking over Bournemouth in a completely different league, with a completely different points deficit... While he judged Vieira on his results from his 12 games Crystal Palace manager, pretty much ignoring the other 179 games he managed at other clubs... Nothing he said "backed up" his own argument so I'm really struggling to see how you came to your conclusion.  

[Kaizero]

4 minutes ago, Clark said:

All of his argument was based on invalid reasoning and false evidence... He had Howe taking over Bournemouth in a completely different league, with a completely different points deficit... While he judged Vieira on his results from his 12 games Crystal Palace manager, pretty much ignoring the other 179 games he managed at other clubs... Nothing he said "backed up" his own argument so I'm really struggling to see how you came to your conclusion.  

 

He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument, you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post. Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable. However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts. Viera has not done as expected performance wise at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson, which makes it more than fair for Froggy to question why people are placing Viera so far up when there's no managerial evidence in his career to back that rating up. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Kaizero

[Clark]

10 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument, you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post. Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable. However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts. Viera has been a failure at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson, which makes it more than fair for Froggy to question why people are placing Viera so far up when there's no managerial evidence in his career to back that rating up. 

'He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument'

 

What are you talking about buddy?

 

'you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post'

 

You edited your post, that's your fault not mine.

 

'Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable'

 

Where did I refute that? Can you quote me? I believe I refuted the claim that Howe took Bournemouth from the Conference to the Premier League with a -17 point deficit and I refuted that claim because it's false...

 

'However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts'

 

This is a debate buddy, facts matter, he got the facts wrong, he's uninformed, you cannot make a claim that Howe is better than Vieira, get all of you reasoning/evidence wrong and still expect to have your claim accepted, that's not how debating/arguments works.

 

'Viera has been a failure at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson'

 

I've been over this buddy, it's 12 games, incredibly small sample size, silly argument.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Clark

[Kaizero]

6 minutes ago, Clark said:

'He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument'

 

What are you talking about buddy?

 

'you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post'

 

You edited your post, that's your fault not mine.

 

'Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable'

 

Where did I refute that? Can you quote me? I believe I refuted the claim that Howe took Bournemouth from the Conference to the Premier League with a -17 point deficit and I refuted that claim because it's false...

 

'However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts'

 

This is a debate buddy, facts matter, he got the facts wrong, he's uninformed, you cannot make a claim that Howe is better than Vieira, get all of you reasoning/evidence wrong and still expect to have your claim accepted, that's not how debating/arguments works.

 

'Viera has been a failure at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson'

 

I've been over this buddy, it's 12 games, incredibly small sample size, silly argument.

 

 

 

 

He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.

 

The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response. 

 

I never said you refuted that at all.

 

He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument. 

 

If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details, please explain where in Viera's career so far we are to accept that he has done enough to warrant being listed above Howe on your list. And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games. It may well turn out that Viera is a better manager than Howe, only time can be the judge of that. But that wasn't the argument though, the argument was a question posed at you as to why you place Viera above Howe.

 

So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit.

 

[gjohnson]

11 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.

 

The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response. 

 

I never said you refuted that at all.

 

He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument. 

 

If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details, please explain where in Viera's career so far we are to accept that he has done enough to warrant being listed above Howe on your list. And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games. It may well turn out that Viera is a better manager than Howe, only time can be the judge of that. But that wasn't the argument though, the argument was a question posed at you as to why you place Viera above Howe.

 

So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit.

 

Fancy name, a bit of experience abroad.

 

Smoke and mirrors. A good manager is a good manager. Vieira is 'ok' but gets a lot more leeway because of his name. If he was called Billy Smith from Croydon with the same experience and ability he would have already been sacked, despite the fact he wouldn't have got the job in the first place.   

[Clark]

2 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.

 

The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response. 

 

I never said you refuted that at all.

 

He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument. 

 

If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details, please explain where in Viera's career so far we are to accept that he has done enough to warrant being listed above Howe on your list. And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games. It may well turn out that Viera is a better manager than Howe, only time can be the judge of that. But that wasn't the argument though, the argument was a question posed at you as to why you place Viera above Howe.

 

So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit.

 

'He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.'

 

The counter argument was me attacking his fabricated reasoning. Informed vs uninformed. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about and yet he was trying to question my ranking. It was the perfect counter argument.

 

'The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response'

 

You're causing this to become circular, I didn't ignore your argument, you posted an unfinished thought/argument, I responded to that, that's a you problem, not a me problem, read your comment before posting...  

 

'I never said you refuted that at all'

 

Then why make a point of it? Why say it? The sky is blue, that is an irrefutable fact... Eddie Howe took Bournemouth to the Premier league, that is an irrefutable fact! Yeah, I know... And?

 

'He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument'

 

Again circular... He can't make that claim... Because he was uninformed... That was my counter... This is becoming incredibly tedious, repetitive and boring.

 

'If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details'

 

I've addressed EVERY POINT (that wasn't edited after the fact), you see how I'm quoting every line and responding to every one of those quotes right? You're now bordering on lying to try and prove a point... 

 

'And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games.'

 

And I wouldn't judge Nuno's or de Boer's entire managerial career on 5-10 games and I would call anyone who does, silly...

 

'So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit'

 

Let's end the previous points first before moving on to that larger topic. My counter argument was 100% accurate and justified, the initial poster was completely uninformed and I have addressed every point up until the last question.

 

 

 

 

[Kaizero]

14 minutes ago, Clark said:

'He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.'

 

The counter argument was me attacking his fabricated reasoning. Informed vs uninformed. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about and yet he was trying to question my ranking. It was the perfect counter argument.

 

'The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response'

 

You're causing this to become circular, I didn't ignore your argument, you posted an unfinished thought/argument, I responded to that, that's a you problem, not a me problem, read your comment before posting...  

 

'I never said you refuted that at all'

 

Then why make a point of it? Why say it? The sky is blue, that is an irrefutable fact... Eddie Howe took Bournemouth to the Premier league, that is an irrefutable fact! Yeah, I know... And?

 

'He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument'

 

Again circular... He can't make that claim... Because he was uninformed... That was my counter... This is becoming incredibly tedious, repetitive and boring.

 

'If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details'

 

I've addressed EVERY POINT (that wasn't edited after the fact), you see how I'm quoting every line and responding to every one of those quotes right? You're now bordering on lying to try and prove a point... 

 

'And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games.'

 

And I wouldn't judge Nuno's or de Boer's entire managerial career on 5-10 games and I would call anyone who does, silly...

 

'So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit'

 

Let's end the previous points first before moving on to that larger topic. My counter argument was 100% accurate and justified, the initial poster was completely uninformed and I have addressed every point up until the last question.

 

 

 

 

 

In all honesty, in my sixteen or something years on this forum, this is the dumbest post I've ever read.

 

He clearly states his argument, his argument doesn't fall on presenting something erroneously. Especially something that is so obvious to understand what he meant. If anything, focusing on that just goes to confirm you have no argument as you have continously been asked your opinion as to why Viera is better than Howe, and your only reasoning so far is essentially: "He said something wrong" and "You edited your post to include points that better backed up your argument, so therefore, due to the fact you edited your post - the points stated does not have any validity in this argment."

 

It's dumb, please stop it.

 

You have not addressed the following:

 

The main and initial question, to you, Clark: Why do you believe Viera is better than Howe?

The second question raised through adding points to the initial argument, what is your thought on all Viera's replacements performing better than he did in the clubs he left when it comes to portraying him as a manager with a better ability than Howe?

 

Those are the questions. The questions are not "What do you think of Froggy writing something in error" or "What do you think of Kaizero editing his post to add more points to his argument".

 

Please refrain from not answering the actual questions this time. It's a waste of time and no doubt of annoyance to everyone else.

[gazza ladra]

Vieria has done very well with Palace this season. Froggy has wheeled out this 25% win percentage a couple times to make his opinion a factual certainty. Yes, Palace have had a lot of draws. But they have also had a very tough schedule. I think the most difficult  in the league. They have lost twice : Liverpool and Chelsea, both away. They drew at Arsenal and West Ham and just beat Man City  away.  He's doing a great job this season.

 

He also did quite well in the US and France. It's not a matter of smoke and mirrors or him getting a pass because of his name.  I wouldn't rate him higher than Howe myself, but when I look at the list of current premier league managers he's nowhere near the bottom.