Sven Botman: targeting January return (Howe)

[The Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Nine said:

That’s how it works though  Positive news that most of us want to hear will be true, anything we don’t like is false. 

 

On Twitter definetly, but most are sensible on here.

 

If Edwards told me that night followed day, I'd probably check.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by The Prophet

[SUPERTOON]

4 minutes ago, Nine said:

That’s how it works though  Positive news that most of us want to hear will be true, anything we don’t like is false. 

Well for a start for weeks Edwards has continually said our budget is £50 million and now all of a sudden today he’s doubled it. He hasn’t got a clue.

[Nine]

Im only taking the piss like, Edwards clearly talks shite

[Milanista]

22 hours ago, ponsaelius said:

Milan are a great club there's no doubt but they won 5 of their European Cups under Berlusconi ffs. The man practically invented the concept of buying success in football. 

I think he used Milan as a vehicle to pursue his political aspirations, no doubt. But I have a tough time associating him with buying success, not only because Milan were a massive club before he took over, but also because the spine of his super teams were actually highly reliant on our youth system, to name a few: Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Albertini, Galli--with other academy graduates being big parts of our success, like Brocchi, Abate, Antonini--but Berlusconi also prided himself on getting talent from obscure places in Italy, like coaches in Sacchi and Capello, and players like Tassotti, Ambrosini, Gattuso, Marco Simone just to name a few.

 

Did Berlusconi spend money in the 80's and 90's? Yes. But Moratti at Inter spent even more, and won very little, as did the Angelli's at Juve, while Napoli, Parma, Sampdoria, Roma, and Lazio all were bankrolled by Italian industrialists during this time.

 

I personally hate Berlusconi, not just due to his politics being antithetical to my own, but also due to his horrific management of the club at the last 10 years of his ownership, where he failed to modernize anything about the club, making himself front-and-center to satisfy his fascistic tendencies.

 

However, with Franco's Real Madrid teams of the 50's and 60's, or the Angelli machines of the 70's buying players left-and-right, I find the idea that Berlusconi invented buying success to be odd, especially as it was his Milan teams that actually went against conventional thinking, whether by employing psychologists and cutting-edge science towards player health, or through huge risks on tactical approaches that flew in the face of what Italy's identity was at the time.

[Coffee_Johnny]

3 hours ago, nbthree3 said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/06/13/newcastle-issue-take-leave-ultimatum-sven-botman-transfer/

 

Newcastle United are ready to walk away from a deal to sign centre-back Sven Botman from Lille after the French club changed their mind about accepting a £30m bid and raised the asking price to £36m.

That is likely to prompt a take it or leave it ultimatum from Newcastle this week before they move on to other targets.

 

That stance has already all but ended the Magpies pursuit of Everton striker Dominic Calvert-Lewin after they were quoted an asking price of £60m for the England international.

It also brought a swift conclusion to their interest in Brentford’s Ivan Toney, who would have cost upwards of £50m. Neither move will happen unless those prices come down.

 

The same is true of Leeds United winger Jack Harrison, with Newcastle not willing to match his £30m asking price at this stage in the window.

 

The Magpies have always been wary of making a third bid for Botman, as they found Lille were also difficult to deal with in January, when they had two bids rejected.

But having been encouraged to bid again for the Netherlands Under-21 international, Newcastle thought a deal was close to being agreed only for the goalposts to be shifted once more.

Interesting to see asking prices quoted—with seeming authority. And to see Harrison rumour resurface. 

[Milanista]

I'm sorry if I derailed the discussion here, so to the mods: please accept my apologies. The places where I talk about Milan, the rules over the proper place is much more flexible, much like Italian driving in comparison to English driving, lol.

 

As far as Botman, I think Lille is the one who is trying to drive up the price. I think Newcastle's management are not offering the insane numbers that are being talked about in the press, and frankly, I think Newcastle are using very similar data-driven models on valuation. Yes, you paid a little extra for Bruno and for Wood (could be EPL tax plus a Newcastle tax [if we're being honest]), but, your pursuit of Botman versus other flavor-of-the-month type players points to a more RB Leipzig/Liverpool/Milan transfer approach than to some City/Chelsea/PSG style.

 

Milan being recently bought for 1.2+ billion means that Lille assumes Milan has more money, but it seems that Newcastle and Milan are the two main clubs after him. I think the difference in bids are relatively minor, probably 25-30m for Milan and 30-35m from Newcastle, Euros. Lille needs money, and they have assets that are very attractive, besides Botman, there is Renato Sanches (which Milan have blocked off), Celik, and Jonathan David. David will probably be bought by a team like Arsenal, who will misuse him (he's a second striker but people pretend he's a 9) but he will command top dollar. Sanches is in his last year of his contract, and his poor time at Bayern and Swansea means that management teams will pretend he hasn't blossomed into an incredible player because of that tough period of his career--while Celik isn't a hyped name, but he's a very good player.

 

Oh, and I realized that Howe used a 4141 while at Bournemouth, and while looking at some tactical breakdowns of Newcastle, his team has, while on paper been a 433, it actually shifts into a 4231 during the game, which really bodes well for Paqueta--it seems that your transfer strategy is quite coherent and in-line with Howe, which is good, it seems that you are actually giving him a real chance to grow this team under his vision rather than just letting him keep the seat warm.

 

Oh! And as far as the Italian media goes: SempreMilan is not Italian media, it's an aggregator of news with an Englishman (I believe he has Evertonian sympathies?) at the helm. Italian news sources vary wildly in terms of their accuracy for each specific team. SempreMilan simply poorly translates news from all Italian sources and posts them with misleading headlines. For transfer news, it's where things have become hyper-localized, and while yes, the larger Italian papers and names will talk about "oh, so and so is close to x club!" They are just on a pop-level of journalism, and they have genuine scoops (by virtue of their size and fame) every once-in-a-while.

 

Each club has a journalist or two who they rely on the most. As I wrote earlier, Vitiello is, by far, the most reliable when it comes to Milan. For Juventus, it is Agresti, for example. Longo (for Milan) is more disputed, I think he captures rumors and breaks them first, but, he's not getting first-hand information from the management--but he seems to know things.

 

Also, there is a growing sense among Milan fans that they are giving up on Botman (and Bremer), and will put more faith in Kalulu, purchase a more developmental CB, as it seems that Kjaer's rehab from his ACL surgery has gone well. With Tomori, Kalulu, and Kjaer, the need for someone of the quality of Botman may become less urgent. Though, we do need a CB, as Kjaer's return is not certain. Kalulu is also a very strong RB, with many Milan fans (I'd say most) wanting to start Kalulu as our RB over our current incumbent (and next captain, youth product) Davide Calabria.

 

It also must be said that under Maldini, Milan's transfer targets seldom get drawn out this long. Giroud might be the only transfer that was talked about as much as this, but that was haggling over a 1m transfer fee that Chelsea tacked on, when he should have left for free. Most of Maldini's purchases happen with very little notice, and the names that we have been the most strongly linked with, even by more reputable sources, tend to not materialize. We were supposed to get Angel Correa, Vlasic (now at West Ham), Wesley Fofana, Mohamed Simakan, and others, and none of them came to Milan. Tomori, Kalulu, Adli, Leao, Tonali, Kjaer, Maignan, all were sudden and rapid.

 

Maignan is the most glaring, as Donnaruma left Milan at the end of his contract, and Maldini did not even entertain games from the late Raiola, who tried to ask Milan to reconsider, Milan had signed Maignan before the season ended, with only a random report months previous (that most forgot) hinting at the interest. He was also from Lille.

 

Milan fans, and there are many Dutch ones, seem to think Botman's preference is Milan. However, if his first choice is not Newcastle, that should not bother you. There are countless stories of players not wanting to go to x or y club, who have become legends there. Wasn't Jamie Carragher an Everton fan before going to Liverpool? So who cares?

 

Finally, my "dig" at American fans was not serious, it was just a joke. So to any American fans here, please accept my sincere apologies, I learned my English in American international schools, and my English accent is very American, so it was as much a joke at my expense as it was at yours.

 

I apologize, also, for the length of my posts, I'd just like to offer as much background to your competition over a transfer and towards Lille as possible, as well as allow you to not waste your time with reports from Tuttosport (nicknamed "Tuttoshit"), Gazetta, CorSport, or other sources, they are a waste of your time. Also, Milan is not exactly a darling club of the Italian media, so they're not going to get the "top 6" treatment. The clubs who get the most beneficial coverage and the most "benefit of the doubt" are Juve and Inter, by far. By far. Napoli does, locally, but their owner is a madman and has squandered 10 years of great fortune with players and coaches. Roma, Lazio, again, locally, but not by national sources.

[PauloGeordio]

I find your posts thorough and an interesting read ??. Thanks. 

[Fantail Breeze]

4 hours ago, nbthree3 said:

I don't think it's fair to dismiss him because he's giving us negative news

 

All journalists are dismissed if they report anything even remotely negative. It’s 100% true if it’s a positive article mind.

 

Reminds me when people were battering Balagué when he said the Emery deal had hit difficulties.

 

Edwards is as hit and miss as the rest of them. None of them are reliable and it’s not worth getting too excited or angry by anything they say.

[nufcjmc]

It's like HTT of old so much so I ashamedly can't read it all as too tired. 

[TheBrownBottle]

4 hours ago, McCormick said:

We sure know how to prolong a transfer. Could be due to the structure of the deals we’re trying to go for, could be Lille being wankers again or it could just all be bullshit and we’re still good to go. Whatever it is this is taking ages to “get across the line”.

It’s only mid-June.  We don’t know what’s happening - we don’t even know if we’ve actually bid.  The press are clearly fumbling around and making guesses because otherwise no-one will click on their horseshit.  It is why football ‘journalism’ isn’t journalism - this shite wouldn’t be tolerated by proper newspapers at the front.

 

Lille aren’t wankers for moving the goalposts - he’s their player, they can be as difficult as they want.  Doesn’t mean it isn’t bloody frustrating like :)

[Guest HTT II]

17 hours ago, Kasper said:

 

Really can't tell if this is sarcasm or just really strange opinion.

Bit of both, they didn’t buy us to sportswash people which doesn’t really work. It’s an investment to turn NUFC into the best team in the world which will say to the world when we invest in something like sport we turn that something into the best and most successful and that we are successful people and if you want to do business, be it sport or something else, do it with the most successful.
 

If anything buying NUFC opens them up to more criticism which is a good thing I’d say. I will also say, for all their atrocities and issues, their culture is different and they lag way behind in many areas compared to other countries, it wasn’t so long ago we would chop peoples heads off here in the U.K., or black people couldn't sit next to a white person in America.
 

Islam isn’t this evil horrible religion either and Muslims are by and large some of the nicest people on the earth even if they say disagree with a man or a women going with the same sex, but it hasn’t went through a period of enlightenment yet like some other religions have and even then most religions are totally out of date with the modern times.
 

We have to respect that their country, values and culture is different to say ours as much as we may disagree or not like it. I’ve traveled the world so know that say in parts of Kenya, me having a beer is regarded as bad, where as I would regard them just slitting the throat of a goat bad or arranged marriages. 

 

We also have to remember, every country commits atrocities and have human rights issues, the U.K. are sending refugees to Rwanda for example. America separate Mexican kids from their parents and gay people are persecuted everywhere in the world and we commit war crimes all over and innocent people die as a result. Most of the wars waged across this planet of ours are armed by US and U.K. made gear.

 

I hate and I’m against any form of war, intolerance, racism, persecution, death and other human atrocities, but if we sit down and ask ourselves who we are, we are all hypocrites because we all contribute to the suffering of people. Whataboutery I know, but I buy petrol. Clothes from China, I cheer Newcastle United, I eat animals, I polute the environment etc.

 

I won’t and never will use my support of NUFC to defend Saudi Arabia and no-one should, but this sportswashing speal is bullshit and used by the media and those with their own agendas to make people feel guilty or have a go and it’s, again, bulshit. If they wanted to sportswash people, well they are going about things badly because SA owning NUFC will do the exact opposite, if we are successful however, it will do exactly what they intended and that’s all about promoting themselves as successful people, a nation, in business and that’s what EVERYTHING boils down to - MONEY!

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by HTT II

[Happinesstan]

12 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Bit of both, they didn’t buy us to sportswash people which doesn’t really work. It’s an investment to turn NUFC into the best team in the world which will say to the world when we invest in something like sport we turn that something into the best and most successful and that we are successful people and if you want to do business, be it sport or something else, do it with the most successful.
 

If anything buying NUFC opens them up to more criticism which is a good thing I’d say. I will also say, for all their atrocities and issues, their culture is different and they lag way behind in many areas compared to other countries, it wasn’t so long ago we would chop peoples heads off here in the U.K., or black people couldn't sit next to a white person in America.
 

Islam isn’t this evil horrible religion either and Muslims are by and large some of the nicest people on the earth even if they say disagree with a man or a women going with the same sex, but it hasn’t went through a period of enlightenment yet like some other religions have and even then most religions our totally out of date with the modern times.
 

We have to respect that their country, values and culture is different to say ours as much as we may disagree or not like it. I’ve traveled the world so know that say in parts of Kenya, me having a beer is regarded as bad, where as I would regard them just slitting the throat of a goat bad or arranged marriages. 

 

We also have to remember, ever country commits atrocities and have human rights issues, the U.K. are sending refugees to Rwanda for example. America separate Mexican kids from their parents and gay people are persecuted everywhere in the world and we commit war crimes all over and innocent people die as a result. Most of the wars waged across this planet of ours are armed by US and U.K. made gear.

 

I hate and I’m against any form of war, intolerance, racism, persecution, death and other human atrocities, but if we sit down and ask ourselves who we are, we are all hypocrites because we all contribute to the suffering of people. Whataboutery I know, but I buy petrol. Clothes from China, I cheer Newcastle United, I eat animals, I polute the environment etc.

 

I won’t and never will use my support of NUFC to defend Saudi Arabia and no-one should, but this sportswashing speal is bullshit and used by the media and those with their own agendas to make people feel guilty or have a go and it’s, again, bulshit. If they wanted to sportswash people, we’ll, they are going about things badly because SA owning NUFC will do the exact opposite, if we are successful however, it will do exactly what they intended and that’s all about promoting themselves as successful people, a nation, in business and that’s what EVERYTHING boils down to - MONEY!

Yeah, that reminds me of a lunch I served at Balls Brothers. The kingpin of Chinese off-shore, or something, meeting with City bigwigs. The question was asked, and I'm paraphrasing, "how do you deal with lowlifes" and the answer, after a moment's silence, was "We're China". Everybody laughed knowingly.

Like sombody asked "how do you maintain your success with your abhorrent record on human rights?" and he replied "Are you asking me or telling me?"

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Happinesstan

[Kasper]

5 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Bit of both, they didn’t buy us to sportswash people which doesn’t really work.

.....

if we are successful however, it will do exactly what they intended and that’s all about promoting themselves as successful people, a nation, in business....

 

What do you think sportwashing means?

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, Kasper said:

 

What do you think sportwashing means?

Not what the perceived ‘idea’ of it is that’s for sure.

 

Ah, so Newcastle win the league, everyone will think SA are great and forget about their human rights atrocities.

 

NO!

 

Ah (business/money men), they bought a football club and turned them into the best team, quick, let’s do business with them!

 

AYE!

[Kasper]

7 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Not what the perceived ‘idea’ of it is that’s for sure.

 

Ah, so Newcastle win the league, everyone will think SA are great and forget about their human rights atrocities.

 

NO!

 

Ah (business/money men), they bought a football club and turned them into the best team, quick, let’s do business with them!

 

AYE!

 

 

Yes, those are both sportwashing.

It's marketing. What they want is in 5-10 years time when someone hears the word Saudi Arabia the first image they have is the new Messi & CL final or in your latter example a successful football club and possible business investment in SA. 

Right now I'd bet for many people the first thing that comes to mind is Khashoggi and public hangings. Just because it has caused them bad press in the first 6 months of the project doesnt mean it wont work in the long run.

Whether you think there's anything wrong with nations using sports like this is another question but that's what it is.

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

 

 

Yes, those are both sportwashing.

It's marketing. What they want is in 5-10 years time when someone hears the word Saudi Arabia the first image they have is the new Messi & CL final or in your latter example a successful football club and possible business investment in SA. 

Right now I'd bet for many people the first thing that comes to mind is Khashoggi and public hangings. Just because it has caused them bad press in the first 6 months of the project doesnt mean it wont work in the long run.

Whether you think there's anything wrong with nations using sports like this is another question but that's what it is.

Do you think PIF bought us to sportswash? Is that their goal? I guess we have different ideas of what sportswashing is or perceived to be about. For me them buying NUFC is a business investment and all about marketing themselves in terms of business and of course money, if they really cared about their image, they would stop committing human rights atrocities, it’s purely about investing in a global sport and building the best brand possible. If others correlate the two - SA and NUFC - and think hey, all is good,  they aren’t bad people after all, that’s on THEM!

[Kasper]

12 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Do you think PIF bought us to sportswash? Is that their goal? I guess we have different ideas of what sportswashing is or perceived to be about. For me them buying NUFC is a business investment and all about marketing themselves in terms of business and of course money, if they really cared about their image, they would stop committing human rights atrocities, it’s purely about investing in a global sport and building the best brand possible. If others correlate the two - SA and NUFC - and think hey, all is good,  they aren’t bad people after all, that’s on THEM!

 

Yes, I do. Marketing themselves as a good country to invest money in by owning a football club is exactly what sportwashing is.

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

 

Yes, I do. Marketing themselves as a good country to invest money in by owning a football club is exactly what sportwashing is.

Well I agree to disagree!

[Coffee_Johnny]

1 minute ago, Kasper said:

 

Yes, I do. Marketing themselves as a good country to invest money in by owning a football club is exactly what sportwashing is.

I wouldn’t rule out other motives. The super rich need stimulation and leisure activities like everyone else. The profile of Premier League football, the visible challenge of building success, the vicarious glory—and inherent excitement—of doing so, the business acumen required to navigate that path, are possible motivating factors I would imagine may play a part. Perhaps as much as, if not more than, any perceived re-focusing/softening of the external perception of the nation of origin of the investors. Maybe, as far as we know,  these are the most important factors.  Which I guess are no different to the aspirations of most super rich owners of sports clubs. 

[Guest HTT II]

Hey, how can we get the world to ignore our atrocious human rights records?

 

Lets stop committing them?

No, that’s just silly! 
 

LETS BUY NEWCASTLE UNITED INSTEAD! That will fool them ha ha ha ha ha!

 

Nah, m not buying it. Sorry.

 

 

 

 

[Thumbheed]

Total bollocks that, like.

 

 

 

 

[Guest neesy111]

9 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Hey, how can we get the world to ignore our atrocious human rights records?

 

Lets stop committing them?

No, that’s just silly! 
 

LETS BUY NEWCASTLE UNITED INSTEAD! That will fool them ha ha ha ha ha!

 

Nah, m not buying it. Sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

That's not how it works.

[Guest HTT II]

1 minute ago, neesy111 said:

 

That's not how it works.

Exactly!

[The Prophet]

Scott Wilson still claiming the framework of a £30 million pound deal is agreed with Lille.

 

Either him or Luke need a new source.

[LFEE]

Does anyone wonder how sports journalism works? Like turning up for the job on your first day ?How would you gather reliable transfer info if not from the clubs? So many agents in the game now etc. The fact we found it hard to get Ekitike the first time round as we didn’t know who his real representative shows how tricky it must be these days.