Still not worthy of a thread

[Groundhog63]

First on TOONdle this morning, btw. 

 

Go me. 

[Kaizero]

5 hours ago, Jaqen said:

Are people forgetting that idea proposed by Liverpool and Man U owners that would give the 'big 6' special voting powers as well as trim the league down to 18 sides whilst getting rid of the League Cup amongst some other nonsense 

 

The Birmingham owners tried to get their game against Wrexham moved to the US FFS 

 

Villa are already charging £97 for champions league games. 

 

People are concerned because there is a genuine possible threat to the whole English game with an ever increasing number of American owners. 

 

Saying Mike Ashley ran Newcastle poorly as an arguement against that is just completely missing the point. 

 

Idea proposed - never going through, those owners being part of the 10% owners with weird ideas.

 

And the Wrexham owners publicly denouncing the idea and saying it'd never happen on their watch... oh, wait, the Wrexham owners are also American! What a doozy that different businesses have different opinions even if they have the same nationality!?!

 

Supply and demand, they sell out so they can charge that. They're a business, not a charity. Name me one English owner that wouldn't raise their ticket prices if they could?

 

Again, how? What have they done? What do they do that makes this genuine? I see 0% evidence of this bar "americans, yucky!"

 

No, it's exactly the point. I've listed multiple owners that have made their clubs vanish, one set even made their club no longer exist. All of these were not Americans, yet "american owners" are for some reason the "biggest threat" against english football?! It's lunacy.

[Sima]

36 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Idea proposed - never going through, those owners being part of the 10% owners with weird ideas.

 

And the Wrexham owners publicly denouncing the idea and saying it'd never happen on their watch... oh, wait, the Wrexham owners are also American! What a doozy that different businesses have different opinions even if they have the same nationality!?!

 

Supply and demand, they sell out so they can charge that. They're a business, not a charity. Name me one English owner that wouldn't raise their ticket prices if they could?

 

Again, how? What have they done? What do they do that makes this genuine? I see 0% evidence of this bar "americans, yucky!"

 

No, it's exactly the point. I've listed multiple owners that have made their clubs vanish, one set even made their club no longer exist. All of these were not Americans, yet "american owners" are for some reason the "biggest threat" against english football?! It's lunacy.

Ryan Reynolds is Canadian, it will be him keeping everything in check.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 07:56 by Sima

[Kid Icarus]

American as I see it, fair or not, is just shorthand for the long list of characteristics relating to a certain form of capitalism, commercialisation and branding that's heavily associated with America and a lot of football fans are fearful the sport is heading towards.

 

It doesn't really matter where those characteristics come from, they'd still be met with the same reaction. 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 08:31 by Kid Icarus

[GEFAFWISP]

26 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

American as I see it, fair or not, is just shorthand for the long list of characteristics relating to a certain form of capitalism, commercialisation and branding that's heavily associated with America and a lot of football fans are fearful the sport is heading towards.

 

It doesn't really matter where those characteristics come from, they'd still be met with the same reaction. 

 

 

 

Racist

[gazza ladra]

26 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

American as I see it, fair or not, is just shorthand for the long list of characteristics relating to a certain form of capitalism, commercialisation and branding that's heavily associated with America and a lot of football fans are fearful the sport is heading towards.

 

It doesn't really matter where those characteristics come from, they'd still be met with the same reaction. 

This.

[joeyt]

10 hours ago, joeyt said:

3 American owners of Premier League clubs signed to join the European Super League 

 

Didn't get a response to this

[Kaizero]

10 minutes ago, joeyt said:

 

Didn't get a response to this

 

You did  As did the two posters bringing up the same thing before you did. Says it all about how set views are when posts aren't even read properly.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 09:58 by Kaizero

[Kaizero]

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

American as I see it, fair or not, is just shorthand for the long list of characteristics relating to a certain form of capitalism, commercialisation and branding that's heavily associated with America and a lot of football fans are fearful the sport is heading towards.

 

It doesn't really matter where those characteristics come from, they'd still be met with the same reaction. 

 

 

 

 

Now, see, that point in itself is a fair point. But it falls under the same definition as me saying Hollywood is run by Jews and I don't want the Jews to ruin film production through the greed inherent in their shared cultural history. 

 

I just demonized an entire group of people because there's two powerful families of Jewish origin running two major studios. The problem in this example is corporate greed ruining creativity, not an entire group of people. 

 

Call things what they are, don't blame an entire group of people. A shit owner is a shit owner, regardless of nationality, and the worst owners in PL history haven't been Americans - but English, Norwegian and Indian.

 

Just say you are fearful of the commercialisation of the sport and a more drastic focus on the capitalistic aspects of club ownership than saying you are fearful of "American owners", because as said, all it does is lessen your point and opinion on the matter - just as me railing on "Jews" would make nobody take my opinion on Hollywood seriously.

 

Yes, the example used is quite extreme, but given how nobody even realizes what they're doing it felt like it had to be that extreme to have a chance of opening some eyes. I don't disagree with the fear and worry that's been raised regarding ownership, I have an issue with how it's being framed.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 10:04 by Kaizero

[El Prontonise]

6 hours ago, thomas said:

can't buy what's not for sale, losers. get richer domestic shitheads if you don't like it

 

[Bimpy474]

Are we not saying American owners seem to be the driving force trying to steer their clubs toward a set up most club fans don't want.

 

Super League scenario, extra games, games abroad among suggestions. Which could break up the fabric of the traditional way of things, promotion, relegation etc. And even break up the leagues, seemingly without caring about that, because they have no feel for the nature and said traditions of our football ? 

 

Boils down to greed and money, as it usually does. And any owner of any club will jump at the money imo. Money while making the game great, is also its biggest threat.

 

 

[Interpolic]

30 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

You did  As did the two posters bringing up the same thing before you did. Says it all about how set views are when posts aren't even read properly.

 

 

 

 

Your response to me was "who is more mad out of the Glazers and Ratcliffe?" or similar. So I didn't feel like that was answered, or that joeyt would gain anything from re-reading it. 

 

The ESL is THE recent example of football almost being destroyed and it was spearheaded by 3 American owners.

 

The potential end result of it being elite football becoming a closed shop that is comparable to American sport with the values of the football pyramid a distant memory. Which is exactly the type of thing people would be concerned about if the EPL was owned by a majority of Americans. 

[Heron]

Stop bickering and watch the Villains of Aston @ the Newcastle Magpies.

[Kaizero]

17 minutes ago, Interpolic said:

 

Your response to me was "who is more mad out of the Glazers and Ratcliffe?" or similar. So I didn't feel like that was answered, or that joeyt would gain anything from re-reading it. 

 

The ESL is THE recent example of football almost being destroyed and it was spearheaded by 3 American owners.

 

The potential end result of it being elite football becoming a closed shop that is comparable to American sport with the values of the football pyramid a distant memory. Which is exactly the type of thing people would be concerned about if the EPL was owned by a majority of Americans. 

Revisionist history, it was spearheaded by Perez and the Juventus bloke with the three English PL clubs as co-signers.

 

Not saying it wasn’t a shit move, but when you try to use the ESL as a means to slam all US based owners - the fact the main duo behind the ESL were Spanish and Italian doesn’t help the argument. The fact the US owners aren’t backing the new attempt at a Super League, but that the very same Spanish and Italian owners are also says a lot.

 

Again, I do not disagree with what you are opposed to, what you fear can happen and what you worry about when it comes to the future of the sport. Rather the contrary, I also oppose, worry and fear the same things.

 

Which is why I want people to address the actual fears and issues, just as I want people to direct their anger about VAR away from VAR and onto IFAB - as making a scene about something that’s not actually relevant to the root cause of problems will just allow the problems to get worse.  
 

Just imagine I went on about “Jewish owners” ruining football. Reality could very well be that some of them were actively working to ruin football as we know it, but how much do you think my point of attack would help my cause or worsen it?

[Kaizero]

Also, as mentioned, a majority of the 20 teams in the PL has has US owners for over a decade now. The season with the most US owned teams had 14 out of 20 owned by Americans (when counting both majority & minority owners). If you worry about a majority of PL teams being owned by Americans, you’re a bit late  

 

 

Edited yesterday at 11:00 by Kaizero

[AyeDubbleYoo]

9 minutes ago, Heron said:

Stop bickering and watch the Villains of Aston @ the Newcastle Magpies.

Aston Supervillains? 

[Heron]

1 minute ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Aston Supervillains? 

[Whitley mag]

How they can have PSR rules without considering level of debt should be enough to bring the whole corrupt system down.

[joeyt]

8 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Not saying it wasn’t a shit move, but when you try to use the ESL as a means to slam all US based owners - the fact the main duo behind the ESL were Spanish and Italian doesn’t help the argument. The fact the US owners aren’t backing the new attempt at a Super League, but that the very same Spanish and Italian owners are also says a lot.

 

 

I don't think it says anything really?

 

The reason PL owners won't be backing it because of the massive backlash they received when they tried to implement the ESL. If it wasn't foir the backlash those owners (3 of which were American) were happy to sell their soul to the devil.

 

Why would they back it again after the backlash they received here in the UK from all corners?

[Interpolic]

9 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

Revisionist history, it was spearheaded by Perez and the Juventus bloke with the three English PL clubs as co-signers.

 

Not saying it wasn’t a shit move, but when you try to use the ESL as a means to slam all US based owners - the fact the main duo behind the ESL were Spanish and Italian doesn’t help the argument. The fact the US owners aren’t backing the new attempt at a Super League, but that the very same Spanish and Italian owners are also says a lot.

 

Again, I do not disagree with what you are opposed to, what you fear can happen and what you worry about when it comes to the future of the sport. Rather the contrary, I also oppose, worry and fear the same things.

 

Which is why I want people to address the actual fears and issues, just as I want people to direct their anger about VAR away from VAR and onto IFAB - as making a scene about something that’s not actually relevant to the root cause of problems will just allow the problems to get worse.  
 

Just imagine I went on about “Jewish owners” ruining football. Reality could very well be that some of them were actively working to ruin football as we know it, but how much do you think my point of attack would help my cause or worsen it?

 

It's not revisionist history, it's looking at it from the English perspective as it's most relevant to the discussion. 

 

I'd be happy enough with saying Jewish owners were ruining football if there was somehow the same history in Jewish sport that there is in American sport. And if I felt the systems in those sports would ruin European football, as the American systems would. And if the Jewish owners had already tried to railroad the existing system in favour of a poisonous closed shop model, as the Americans already have. 

 

I don't feel like the Americans need you jumping out to defend them by calling us all racist, it's a weird stance to take. You seem to be enjoying yourself though so I'll leave you to it. 

[wormy]

[BlazeT44]

Happy to watch a closed shop, NFL, NHL style system, with all the benefits Pata mentioned, when watching those sports. 

 

Happy to watch leagues based on promotion and relegation, when watching football in the UK.

 

Wouldn't want British owners buying US teams then suggesting/demanding they change their league and how they do things.

 

Don't want Americans doing the same to our game, which has a 150+ year history.

 

They can be good, bad, or shit owners - that's on them, but don't be suggesting no super league, all star game or shit in the first 12 months of your ownership.... Maybe bring an idea to the table when you've been part of the set up for a while.

[Kaizero]

4 minutes ago, Interpolic said:

 

It's not revisionist history, it's looking at it from the English perspective as it's most relevant to the discussion. 

 

I'd be happy enough with saying Jewish owners were ruining football if there was somehow the same history in Jewish sport that there is in American sport. And if I felt the systems in those sports would ruin European football, as the American systems would. And if the Jewish owners had already tried to railroad the existing system in favour of a poisonous closed shop model, as the Americans already have. 

 

I don't feel like the Americans need you jumping out to defend them by calling us all racist, it's a weird stance to take. You seem to be enjoying yourself though so I'll leave you to it. 

 

I'm not defending anyone, I'm saying it's counter-productive for what is a valid worry and argument to shrink and refer to the "problem" by one nationality rather than the problem as a whole. Whilst I've not intended to "defend" any nationality, even making it clear that I believe the worst owners in PL history were from my own country, that is what will eventually happen if the conjecture surrounding the very real and worrisome possibilities ahead of us doesn't change from demonizing a nationality into demonizing the actual issues. 

 

I fully agree that given their history with sport and league structure, American citizens would be more likely to want to implement rules they are more familiar with than other ownership groups of other nationalities. But when the main duo behind the ESL are Spanish and Italian, not American, and the three American owners appear to be given the blame for it ever existing? That's not helpful, and one could easily argue that them being the scapegoat is what has allowed the Spanish and Italian cunts to make their new ESL proposal come into existence. 

 

People need to not simplify complex problems as scapegoating only gives actual perpetrators more room to ruin the game as the complaints can just be written off as "Englishmen just don't like Americans" rather than "This is what's wrong with what you are doing to football and we won't stand for it".

[Fak]

2 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

I'm not defending anyone, I'm saying it's counter-productive for what is a valid worry and argument to shrink and refer to the "problem" by one nationality rather than the problem as a whole. Whilst I've not intended to "defend" any nationality, even making it clear that I believe the worst owners in PL history were from my own country, that is what will eventually happen if the conjecture surrounding the very real and worrisome possibilities ahead of us doesn't change from demonizing a nationality into demonizing the actual issues. 

 

I fully agree that given their history with sport and league structure, American citizens would be more likely to want to implement rules they are more familiar with than other ownership groups of other nationalities. But when the main duo behind the ESL are Spanish and Italian, not American, and the three American owners appear to be given the blame for it ever existing? That's not helpful, and one could easily argue that them being the scapegoat is what has allowed the Spanish and Italian cunts to make their new ESL proposal come into existence. 

 

People need to not simplify complex problems as scapegoating only gives actual perpetrators more room to ruin the game as the complaints can just be written off as "Englishmen just don't like Americans" rather than "This is what's wrong with what you are doing to football and we won't stand for it".

Merry Christmas anyway. 

[Groundhog63]

Bit late to the party and, as per, I haven't been arsed enough to trawl (not that it would take that) back thru the thread BUT is it more Xenophobic than racist to have bias against Yanks? 

I'm fond of slagging US owners off as well but I do get some of Kaizero's 'defence' of them in respect to the problem being not singularly led by them. KI is correct in as much it's greed/capitalism but, I guess, our (Eng) focus is directed at our US owners moreso. 

Abramovich wasn't American. Murdoch not. Levy isn't. The Spanish duo and Italian big hitters aren't either. 

I've got anti-US bias anyway given their proclivity to flatten countries to the ground never mind steal other country's sports. 

 

Still boils my piss they call the baseball final The World Series. Fucking up their own arse, hegemonistic megalomaniacs 😂