Group B: England, Iran, United States, Wales (England and USA qualify)

[huss9]

3 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

I must have missed all of these successful, all-action international sides. Particularly ones with massive limitations at centre back and now less so, centre midfield.

 

I understand some of the criticism of Southgate, but most of it lacks any kind nuisance and seeks to underplay what he's achieved as England manager.

at least those teams tried to go for it.

and the coaches tried making active positive decisions in game.

[Kid Icarus]

12 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

No amnesia on my part.  I had Iceland to beat England in 2016 in the predictor in the office and was looked at like I was mad.

 

I don’t give a shite about the results, I just want to see some attacking football. Hodgson’s England were awful of course - but fuck me that’s a low bar.  
 

Germany had some real quality in 1996 - Sammer, Moller and an ageing Klinsmann were comfortably better than owt in their 2021 side.  
 

Not sure how Europe’s most successful footballing nation can be described as having quality that ‘counts for nothing’ in international tournaments

You've misread what I'm saying. Germany's quality counts for little once they get to international tournaments, as in it doesn't matter how bad they might be on paper or in the run up to a tournament, they're still always Germany and usually find a way to succeed.

 

Germany 96 didn't have anything near the quality England did either, so why is the same criticism not thrown at that England team or Venables? That side had the likes of prime Shearer, Sheringham, Gascoigne, Adams, and Seaman. You can't have it both ways like.

 

I do give a shite about the results tbh, but it's not like we've spent our lifetimes being valiant losers playing great stuff. Brief parts of 1990, 1996, and 2004 aside, the football and the results have been largely absolutely shite. 

[huss9]

was dalglish a more successful manager than SBR because he got us 2nd in the league?

we still won nowt.

[54]

 

[The Prophet]

Just now, huss9 said:

at least those teams tried to go for it.

and the coaches tried making active positive decisions in game.

 

Under Southgate, we've reached a semi final and a final in consecutive tournaments. I don't understand how he isn't going for it.

 

We've recently seen an extremely talented Spanish side dominate international football for around half a decade. Yet they were a very dull, risk adverse side, that were built on negating the pitfalls of tournament football. Did they go for it?

[huss9]

i dont expect us to win every game.

but i do expect the coach to try to change things when its obvious its not working and be pro-active and brave.

 

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, Kid Icarus said:

You've misread what I'm saying. Germany's quality counts for little once they get to international tournaments, as in it doesn't matter how bad they might be on paper or in the run up to a tournament, they're still always Germany and usually find a way to succeed.

 

Germany 96 didn't have anything near the quality England did either, so why is the same criticism not thrown at that England team or Venables? That side had the likes of prime Shearer, Sheringham, Gascoigne, Adams, and Seaman. You can't have it both ways like.

 

I do give a shite about the results tbh, but it's not like we've spent our lifetimes being valiant losers playing great stuff. Brief parts of 1990, 1996, and 2004 aside, the football and the results have been largely absolutely shite. 

Got you, apologies my misreading

 

I think Venables is vastly overrated too - both in club and country terms.  Euro 96 was on home soil.  But it was decent to watch.  For the record, I also think Adams and Seaman are two of the most overblown footballers of all time, and Gascoigne was miles past his best by that point.  I actually think this is - man for man - the most technically gifted group in my lifetime.  Not brilliant, but all solid, capable players.  Sure, none of them are world-class - but the only English player that I think was the best in his position in the world at any point was Ashley Cole, who I think was the best left back of the mid-00s.  Gerrard, Lampard et al were players who’s weaknesses were glossed over, helped by that gap being plugged at club level.  

 

Agreed re results and performances largely being shite.  It would be nice to see if the performances can be improved, irrespective of the results.  Neither KK nor BR reached a cup final with NUFC - Dalglish and Gullit did.  But fuck me I know which brand of football I preferred.  

[TheBrownBottle]

3 minutes ago, 54 said:

 

Not arsed about winning it, would like to see some good football

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by TheBrownBottle

[huss9]

1 minute ago, The Prophet said:

 

Under Southgate, we've reached a semi final and a final in consecutive tournaments. I don't understand how he isn't going for it.

 

We've recently seen an extremely talented Spanish side dominate international football for around half a decade. Yet they were a very dull, risk adverse side, that were built on negating the pitfalls of tournament football. Did they go for it?

the second halfs in each game.

any positive changes to try and go for the win?

we were crying out for positive subs and had pace and talent on the bench but he was too scared of losing rather trying to win against italy.

 

[huss9]

cant wait for the bournemouth cup game

[TheBrownBottle]

4 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

Under Southgate, we've reached a semi final and a final in consecutive tournaments. I don't understand how he isn't going for it.

 

We've recently seen an extremely talented Spanish side dominate international football for around half a decade. Yet they were a very dull, risk adverse side, that were built on negating the pitfalls of tournament football. Did they go for it?

They were dull to watch, too.  I didn’t like watching them, I can’t understand how anyone would.

 

Someone is going to win a tournament, but this is meant to be an entertainment.  It’s not a coincidence that Hungary ‘54, Holland ‘74 and Brazil ‘82 are much better known and more fondly remembered than plenty of sides who actually won it.  

[midds]

Still firmly believe that Southgate is that shit scared of failing that he's pushing the path of least resistance. He saw the Iran win and figured 2 draws would be enough so he went out and told them to keep a clean sheet and that was a job well done, the post match interviews confirmed it tbh. I'm also convinced that he'll set up exactly the same way on Tuesday and aim to finish on 5 points minimum to 'hopefully' win the group. Win the first game and grind out 2 draws rather than just go for the win 100% in all 3 games. 

 

Part of me hopes that Iran go eyeballs out and beats the US in a 3-2 thriller while we slog out a 0-0 with Wales whilst finishing second. It's just negative as fuck, he's got a fantastic squad - just try and win every game, play with a bit of purpose and look to win rather than simply not lose. 

[The Prophet]

Just now, huss9 said:

the second halfs in each game.

any positive changes to try and go for the win?

we were crying out for positive subs and had pace and talent on the bench but he was too scared of losing rather trying to win against italy.

 

 

After catching Italy off guard with his initial game plan, I think he was tactically outclassed by Mancini. 

 

Southgate being tactically limited is a perfectly legitimate criticism. That doesn't mean that he hasn't done a good job in terms of tournament performances.

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, midds said:

Still firmly believe that Southgate is that shit scared of failing that he's pushing the path of least resistance. He saw the Iran win and figured 2 draws would be enough so he went out and told them to keep a clean sheet and that was a job well done, the post match interviews confirmed it tbh. I'm also convinced that he'll set up exactly the same way on Tuesday and aim to finish on 5 points minimum to 'hopefully' win the group. Win the first game and grind out 2 draws rather than just go for the win 100% in all 3 games. 

 

Part of me hopes that Iran go eyeballs out and beats the US in a 3-2 thriller while we slog out a 0-0 with Wales whilst finishing second. It's just negative as fuck, he's got a fantastic squad - just try and win every game, play with a bit of purpose and look to win rather than simply not lose. 

Agreed, but oddly enough that’s probably what he wants - finishing 2nd probably means a better chance of a SF for England, thanks to the peculiarities of the draw 

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 

I can't remember what it was that I watched, but I remember a comment years ago, possibly on one of those 'remember 1996' type programmes, about how it's part of our national psyche to be valiant losers, how in a sense we'd rather go down fighting than actually win if it meant not representing a certain set of English stereotypes.

 

Always thought it was a bit of joke and not really true, but I think about it fairly regularly now and I think it applies with Southgate. Certain people literally hate our 2nd most successful manager of all time and have invented alternate and hypothetical realities in order to justify it. 

 

 

 

To an extent I think that’s true, but ironically actually partly why Southgate has (at least historically) been so popular and why he and the team won SPOTY awards last year etc. We were still in the mindset they were these valiant losers doing the nation proud against all odds, rather than one of the favourites (if not the favourite) being outfoxed in a final of a tournament we virtually hosted as far as we were concerned. 
 

Saying that the views have often been a bit weirdly polarised imo. Some people despise him for reasons I can’t understand, like they have short term memories and forgot how depressing being an England fan was prior to 2018 or would be under Allardyce. He absolutely deserves credit for his achievements and also absolutely deserves a lot of the criticism that comes his way, tonight especially. It just shows his limitations that he can’t trust some of his more exciting and creative players and it’s so frustrating and puzzling to watch, like he’s deliberately trying to be boring with his ideas that clearly didn’t work when they mattered most (Croatia 2018, Italy 2021). It’s just such an English mentality to be overly cautious and suspicious of anyone a bit more maverick. 
 

Also what is Mason Mount doing getting 90 minutes every game?

[Kid Icarus]

13 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Got you, apologies my misreading

 

I think Venables is vastly overrated too - both in club and country terms.  Euro 96 was on home soil.  But it was decent to watch.  For the record, I also think Adams and Seaman are two of the most overblown footballers of all time, and Gascoigne was miles past his best by that point. I actually think this is - man for man - the most technically gifted group in my lifetime.  Not brilliant, but all solid, capable players.  Sure, none of them are world-class - but the only English player that I think was the best in his position in the world at any point was Ashley Cole, who I think was the best left back of the mid-00s.  Gerrard, Lampard et al were players who’s weaknesses were glossed over, helped by that gap being plugged at club level.  

 

Agreed re results and performances largely being shite.  It would be nice to see if the performances can be improved, irrespective of the results.  Neither KK nor BR reached a cup final with NUFC - Dalglish and Gullit did.  But fuck me I know which brand of football I preferred.  

I just find this popular opinion absolutely baffling  

I agree that Cole (and Beckham to an extent) were the only players who consistently performed for England, but Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, Beckham were all undoubtedly world class footballers who consistently proved it at club level.

 

The fact they massively underperformed for England, that several managers couldn't get a tune out of them, and this England team of less talented players have performed very well should be a feather in Southgate's cap, but it's not. People somehow immediately jump to the opinion you have and I'm supposed to agree that - all else being equal - I'd rather pick a defence and midfield of Stones, Maguire, Rice, Bellingham and Phillips over Terry, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[Wullie]

13 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Not arsed about winning it, would like to see some good football

 

This is a really weird attitude to international tournaments that you can't expect other people to share. It's the ultimate prize in football, once every four years. Teams ain't going to toss off a chance of winning it in favour of being mighty entertaining and burning out in the groups.

[TheBrownBottle]

4 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

I just find this popular opinion absolutely baffling  

I agree that Cole (and Beckham to an extent) were the only players who consistently performed for England, but Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, Beckham were all undoubtedly world class footballers who consistently proved it at club level.

 

The fact they massively underperformed for England, that several managers couldn't get a tune out of them, and this England team of less talented players have performed very well should be a feather in Southgate's cap, but it's not. People somehow immediately jump to the opinion you have and I'm supposed to agree that - all else being equal - I'd rather pick a defence and midfield of Stones, Maguire, Rice, Bellingham and Phillips over Terry, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes.

 

 

 

Fair enough - we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one  - I think the 00s you listed were good but not great players

[NEEJ]

The difference between watching us and England has never been so obvious. Never thought I'd say this in my lifetime but it's chalk and cheese. 

 

I'm sick of Mason Mount, sick of Kane dropping deep, and sick of Southgate's football (I can be both appreciative and critical of his time in charge). 

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, Wullie said:

 

This is a really weird attitude to international tournaments that you can't expect other people to share. It's the ultimate prize in football, once every four years. Teams ain't going to toss off a chance of winning it in favour of being mighty entertaining and burning out in the groups.

Fair enough, and it’s likely why I can’t engage too well with it.  I don’t care enough about who wins it to be happy watching a grind.  

[huss9]

honestly why bring Hendo on?

[NEEJ]

1 minute ago, huss9 said:

honestly why bring Hendo on?

5 subs to make and you've got Foden sat on the bench all game; it's negative as fuck and no one can dress it up any other way. 

[Deuce]

Can only play the team in front of you…England came out like they were content with a draw. They were ultimately vindicated, but I don’t think it’s outlandish to suggest that they got lucky with that result, either.

Iran game has shades of the 2010 Algeria match for us. Iran will be happy with a draw and will likely park the bus for 90 minutes. I’m afraid we won’t be able to break them down…We don’t have a Donovan or Dempsey to call upon this time around.

[Ronaldo]

Terry and Ferdinand were absolutely brilliant in WC 06 and Stones and Maguire don’t deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence. We just had nobody to score goals when it mattered back then. 
 

When people talk about our ‘golden generation’ it’s much easier to criticise the collective than identify the isolated issue - our ‘goalscorers’, namely Owen, were utter nonentities in the tournaments.

[McDog]

Just now, Tomato Deuce said:

Can only play the team in front of you…England came out like they were content with a draw. They were ultimately vindicated, but I don’t think it’s outlandish to suggest that they got lucky with that result, either.

Iran game has shades of the 2010 Algeria match for us. Iran will be happy with a draw and will likely park the bus for 90 minutes. I’m afraid we won’t be able to break them down…We don’t have a Donovan or Dempsey to call upon this time around.

 

 

 

Whilst that's a dire view I can't say it's not possible. Start Reyna and play on the front foot I guess.