The Europeometer™ (2023/24) - permutations in O.P.

[timeEd32]

In the last 12 months Man United have undoubtedly made progress. If you zoom out to five years then it looks more like standing still, though certainly a more optimistic future. Unfortunately Man City have become the best team in the world in that timespan.

 

We've risen from the abyss to the Champions League in 18 months - almost everyone looks like they are standing still to some degree next to that.

[Shayve79]

8 hours ago, Froggy said:

 

Obviously if people are saying that (never heard that opinion from anyone, anywhere) on RedCafe they're absolute idiots.

 

In response to the "it's how you spend it" comment, Casemiro, Eriksen and Martinez are some of the best signings of the season. Antony has been a dud, but to be fair to Ten Hag he asked for him when his price was half of what we paid.  No more disappointing than Gordon for £45m though. Both have time to improve and a lot more would be expected from both next season I would imagine.

 

We haven't largely stood still at all though. We've won our first trophy in 6 years, in another cup final, and we're already 11 points better off in the league than last season and still have two more games to play. This was with numerous bad injuries and no striker. I'm not counting Weghorst.

 

Something very vital to remember, which nobody gives us any credit for, is the sheer amount of games we have played. When the season finishes, we will have played 17 more games than you. 62 in total. Our side, despite being riddled with injuries, played twice a week every week from September to May. 

 

You've had a brilliant season, but we've had a very good one ourselves, provided we get one more point.  No need to try and downplay our achievements because a minority in our fanbase is threatened by how well you've done.

 

Casemiro has been hit or miss. He had a slow start, a very good middle and a poor last few weeks (bar the odd game like Villa). At his age, he's likely to be an expensive stopgap.

 

As a club that's used to winning PL titles and going far in The Champions League, a League Cup is nothing to write home about. Apart from Newcastle in the final, it was a run of fairly easy games. United have played every possible cup tie at home this season. That has helped, as the away form this season has been a big yikes. 

 

United have taken just 6 point from 33 vs the top 12 away this season. He's made Old Trafford a bit of fortress in comparison.

 

ten Hag has done a good job overall, but I think fans are too quick to assume that he's going to a be a success long term. You need at least 86 points to win a PL these days. It's become a 90+ tally since Conte won the 16/17 title with Chelsea. Mourinho got the closest (81 points). Solskjaer failed miserably with very low points tallies that would usually be nowhere near the average for a 2nd or 3rd place PL team. Standards dropped under him. ten Hag looks amazing in comparison. But tbh, that 0-7 away defeat at Anfield would be a sackable offence at other European heavyweights such as Real, Bayern and even Chelsea (Abramovich era). It's as bad as Solskjaer being 5-0 down at half-time vs Liverpool at home. Two of the darkest days in the history of the football club.

 

ten Hag has sacrificed his principles for short term success. United play with one of the lowest defensive lines in the league to protect De Gea. They don't press very high. He's done well to drop Maguire, get rid of Ronaldo and improve the home form. But there are still signs of mental weaknesses at United. They still only play well in spells throughout a game instead of sustained spell of pressure and dominance i.e. Spurs away. Obviously more signings are needed. Although he was backed well last summer. His persistence with Weghorst is kind of a running joke at this stage. ten Hag contributed to some of the injury problems by refusing to rotate at times. He's quite stubborn. He has his favourites.

 

Anything was going to be better than the disaster that was last season.

 

There's still a lot of work left to be done. The United squads is still full of mentally weak and entitled cunts. Bruno is a serial moaner, for example. Some fans love him. I think he's a bit of a fraud. Beating City in the final, which is unlikely but not impossible, could determine the trajectory of the club moving forward. Top 4 should be secured later tonight. United would have to severely bottle it from here.

[lovejoy]

I live in Manchester si watch a lot of their games. They're a really weird team, when they concede, they have it in them to completely collapse (liverpool, brentford, man city they were lucky we didn't hit them for 4 or 5 etc), they rarely seem to beat anyone convincingly, it always appears a bit laboured, their away record is pretty atrocious. Yet they've conceded 8 goals or so at home all season, will finish 3rd, have won a cup and may win another.

 

None of it adds up really.

 

Think everyone can see they're heading in the right direction though. Best bet for us is their takeover drags on (or even better doesn't happen) and it slows them down a bit next season.

[andycap]

Man utd bought casemiro whos what 31 32 years of age for 60 million good player but no longevity plus he's a dirty bastard 😂. 

Martinez was bought with a ruff cut do it yourself haircut for decent money even though Warwick Davis towers above him. Plus he's a dirty bastard 😂 

Then Antony crazy money pizza face plus he's a dirty bastard. I'm seeing a pattern emerging. 

[Shayve79]

1 minute ago, lovejoy said:

I live in Manchester si watch a lot of their games. They're a really weird team, when they concede, they have it in them to completely collapse (liverpool, brentford, man city they were lucky we didn't hit them for 4 or 5 etc), they rarely seem to beat anyone convincingly, it always appears a bit laboured, their away record is pretty atrocious. Yet they've conceded 8 goals or so at home all season, will finish 3rd, have won a cup and may win another.

 

None of it adds up really.

 

Think everyone can see they're heading in the right direction though. Best bet for us is their takeover drags on (or even better doesn't happen) and it slows them down a bit next season.

 

100%.

 

They'll improve a lot if they replace De Gea and sign a reliable ST.

 

They've won games that they looked dead and buried in as well. Leicester played them off the park at Old Trafford for about 30 mins... and then lost 3-0. Fulham had them on the ropes for long spells until the triple red cards. They blew a 2-0 lead vs Sevilla, which ended up being a heavy 5-2 aggregate defeat. You are never sure what will happen.

 

Chelsea will probably play well tonight and still lose. Lol.

[The College Dropout]

No reason Casemiro can't add value to that team for the next 3 years.

[Shayve79]

7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

No reason Casemiro can't add value to that team for the next 3 years.

 

I doubt it. Maybe 2 more seasons with technically better midfielders around him. Playing with Kroos and Modrić is what he's accustomed to.

 

Casemiro is reliant on physical attributes more than technically ability or football IQ. He's struggled to get around the pitch since February.

 

He has looked unfit since returning from suspension. He's been dribbled past a lot in recent games. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Shayve79

[Froggy]

3 minutes ago, Shayve79 said:

Casemiro is reliant on physical attributes more than technically ability or football IQ

 

His positioning, i.e. his football IQ is his strongest attribute. 

 

7 minutes ago, Shayve79 said:

Maybe 2 more seasons with technically better midfielders around him

 

I think Christian Eriksen and Bruno Fernandes are technically sound, don't you?

[Erikse]

11 minutes ago, Shayve79 said:

 

I doubt it. Maybe 2 more seasons with technically better midfielders around him. Playing with Kroos and Modrić is what he's accustomed to.

 

Casemiro is reliant on physical attributes more than technically ability or football IQ. He's struggled to get around the pitch since February.

 

He has looked unfit since returning from suspension. He's been dribbled past a lot in recent games. 

 

 

 

 

Well, Modric is 6,5 years older than Casemiro.. Modric still did pretty well last season (not sure about this season).

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Erikse

[Shayve79]

Just now, Froggy said:

 

His positioning, i.e. his football IQ is his strongest attribute. 

 

 

I think Christian Eriksen and Bruno Fernandes are technically sound, don't you?

 

I disagree. His physicality is his biggest strength. Busquets and Rodri are high IQ players. Casemiro is not as technical, but has other qualities.

 

I don't rate Bruno Fernandes. I think he's one of the most overrated players in world football. He plays too many Hollywood passes. It looks great when they come off, but he's also very wasteful. He's too emotional. He'd have an argument with himself if he could. Probably the most polarising player at the club.

 

Eriksen is a tremendous footballer, but another stopgap. That's why United are being linked with the likes of Mount. Eriksen is not the best out of possession. He'll still be a good squad player and useful against low blocks at home.

[Shayve79]

2 minutes ago, Erikse said:

 

Well, Modric is 6,5 years older than Casemiro.. Modric still did pretty well last season (not sure about this season).

 

 

 

 

Modrić is a freak of nature. Literally.

 

No other midfielder has had the longevity that he has. He's almost 38 and only starting to slow down since the turn of the year. Zidane, Xavi, Pirlo, etc. All retired or one the way out by 34/35. But not little Luka. His fitness levels are insane. Milner is the closest thing to him in England, and even he had to settle for a squad role a 2 years ago or so.

 

Casemiro has a different body type. He's taller and heavier. His play style put more pressure on the body.

 

 

[Shearergol]

5 minutes ago, Shayve79 said:

 

I disagree. His physicality is his biggest strength. Busquets and Rodri are high IQ players. Casemiro is not as technical, but has other qualities.

 

I don't rate Bruno Fernandes. I think he's one of the most overrated players in world football. He plays too many Hollywood passes. It looks great when they come off, but he's also very wasteful. He's too emotional. He'd have an argument with himself if he could. Probably the most polarising player at the club.

 

Eriksen is a tremendous footballer, but another stopgap. That's why United are being linked with the likes of Mount. Eriksen is not the best out of possession. He'll still be a good squad player and useful against low blocks at home.

 

Fernandes has been their best player since the day he signed. He's joint top of the charts this season (with KDB) for big chances created. Most overrated player in world football? WTF man?

[Froggy]

Just now, Shearergol said:

 

Fernandes has been their best player since the day he signed. He's joint top of the charts this season (with KDB) for big chances created. Most overrated player in world football? WTF man?

 

Honestly.

 

I will agree with anyone that tells me that Fernandes is a moaning cunt. He's one of the worst for it. He is a phenomenal footballer though and genuinely one of the best that we've ever had.

 

He maybe only has himself to blame that people won't see him as a great because of the way he gets on. He has it all though. Far and away the best thing to happen to the club since Sir Alex. 

 

[The College Dropout]

I like Bruno as a footballer.

 

 

But he does not "have it all".

 

He doesn't carry or dribble the ball well and he's not great at retaining possession. He always goes for the killer ball even when it's not on.

[madras]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

I like Bruno as a footballer.

 

 

But he does not "have it all".

 

He doesn't carry or dribble the ball well and he's not great at retaining possession. He always goes for the killer ball even when it's not on.

If he always goes for the killer ball surely he'll give it away most of the time. Also until the injury he was great at retaining possession and the main reason teams wouldn't press us.

 

I don't think he has it all but very few do.

 

 

Edit..... Wrong Bruno 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by madras

[The College Dropout]

Aye he's a very good player. But he's not better than Odegaard or KDB. Players that genuinely almost "have it all". Bruno F does not.

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

8 hours ago, aussiemag said:

 

I agree with Froggy. I think Man Utd have had a really good season and the starting 11 is good with Eriksen & Casemiro as the CM's. I would be concerned about the low GD issue, however this will be solved with the signing of a proven striker. 

They will challenge top 4 and above next season. 

 

They seem to think they have so thats what matters most.  We were told by outsiders from years that we should be happy with Ashley but knew better.

 

From the outside league wise compared to two seasons ago they have lost more, GD is worse they may end up on less points and have been smashed a few times.  Liverpool smashed them, I don't recall us beating them so convincing for a good few years.  They have had several other really dodgy results.

 

Good is all relative.  Compared to last year it looks good.  Compared to two years ago it looks the same but "feels" better.

 

Next year if they dont get top 4 it should be seen as complete failure if they get the level of players they're talking about (Kane, Rice etc).  We're still miles away from them in terms of what we can spend on wages.  

 

Success next year for us is getting any form of Europe again and a decent run in a cup, winning the champions league would be a bonus mind.

 

 

 

 

 

[TRon]

1 hour ago, andycap said:

Man utd bought casemiro whos what 31 32 years of age for 60 million good player but no longevity plus he's a dirty bastard 😂. 

Martinez was bought with a ruff cut do it yourself haircut for decent money even though Warwick Davis towers above him. Plus he's a dirty bastard 😂 

Then Antony crazy money pizza face plus he's a dirty bastard. I'm seeing a pattern emerging. 

 

I don't watch Man U that often but I was impressed by Martinez on the couple of times I've watched him. Might not be the tallest, but he looks like a really tenacious defender.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Martinez is one of the best CBs in the league for sure, great player. 

[Erikse]

1 hour ago, Shayve79 said:

 

Modrić is a freak of nature. Literally.

 

No other midfielder has had the longevity that he has. He's almost 38 and only starting to slow down since the turn of the year. Zidane, Xavi, Pirlo, etc. All retired or one the way out by 34/35. But not little Luka. His fitness levels are insane. Milner is the closest thing to him in England, and even he had to settle for a squad role a 2 years ago or so.

 

Casemiro has a different body type. He's taller and heavier. His play style put more pressure on the body.

 

 

 

Well yes, players in general last longer now than 10-15 years ago. I remember everyone was amazed about Giggs scoring a goal at 37 years of age against a weak Premier League side. Today we have players like Ronaldo, Modric, Zlatan, etc. Fernandinho played 1000 minutes in the PL for Man City last season when they achieved 93 points, he was 37 years old. Times are changing.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Erikse

[Froggy]

33 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

I like Bruno as a footballer.

 

 

But he does not "have it all".

 

He doesn't carry or dribble the ball well and he's not great at retaining possession. He always goes for the killer ball even when it's not on.

 

25 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Aye he's a very good player. But he's not better than Odegaard or KDB. Players that genuinely almost "have it all". Bruno F does not.

 

He absolutely can carry and dribble, but we're a counter attacking side where Rashford is the main threat and we've been set up that way for years. We don't play like City or Arsenal. Put Bruno into those sides and see the dribble and carry stats increase. His stats would be frightening if we had Jesus or Haaland up top. 

 

We both know all these players can assist and score. Since Bruno came into the league the only player near him is De Bruyne for G&A from midfielders. 

 

Even at that, at a glance, Bruno completes 0.9 dribbles per game with a success rate of 53% compared to 1.3 (63%) for Odegaard and 1.0 (61%) for De Bruyne. 

 

Fernandes is either ahead or tied when it comes big chances created, key passes etc. There's very little between these players in an attacking sense. 

 

I'm not sure how you can mention Odegaard and De Bruyne as having it all while Bruno doesn't. The stats show he has everything they do and more in attack wise. We're significantly worse than Arsenal and City yet he still has those numbers. For the last three years Bruno has pretty been our only creative outlet. 

 

Defensively he's mile better than both of them as well. He has more tackles per game than both of them combined. He has more interceptions per game than both of them combined. More clearances than both of them combined. His work rate is something else. 

 

I've watched this guy play every minute since he came to us. You boys watch highlights. He can do it all. He is the complete midfielder. 

 

I joke about a lot of here. We know McTominay is a bit shit. Fred is alright. Antony and Sancho are shit. I can handle criticism being fired their way, but Bruno is a completely different class. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Bruno is definitely one of the least likeable players in the league, can’t really assess him because of how much I hate his face and behaviour. 

[Froggy]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Bruno is definitely one of the least likeable players in the league, can’t really assess him because of how much I hate his face and behaviour. 

 

That I can totally understand. I said above his attitude will cause people to underrate him and he only has himself to blame. He's an awful whinge. 

[Optimistic Nut]

Not sure on the Lisandro Martinez hype personally. He's an Argentinian Chris Perry. 

[TRon]

1 hour ago, lovejoy said:

I live in Manchester si watch a lot of their games. They're a really weird team, when they concede, they have it in them to completely collapse (liverpool, brentford, man city they were lucky we didn't hit them for 4 or 5 etc), they rarely seem to beat anyone convincingly, it always appears a bit laboured, their away record is pretty atrocious. Yet they've conceded 8 goals or so at home all season, will finish 3rd, have won a cup and may win another.

 

None of it adds up really.

 

Think everyone can see they're heading in the right direction though. Best bet for us is their takeover drags on (or even better doesn't happen) and it slows them down a bit next season.

 

I do agree with this post generally. Man U still seem to be in something of a transition period, they have not really beaten many teams convincingly, quite often they seem to have sneaked a win by the odd goal. I suppose it shows that Ten Hag has them well organised at least. But even though Liverpool have had a car crash of a season, I was always more worried about them going on a streak of wins than I was of Man U. As it is, we'll probably end up ceding 3rd place to them on the back of losing our shooting boots against Leicester, but it doesn't feel like there's THAT much between us and them now.