Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[r0cafella]

25 minutes ago, TK-421 said:

 

I thought that was one of the changes just voted in, the interest on shareholder loans, which was previously excluded (ans as such no interest was being charged) and would now count toward PSR?

Yes that's right the cost of the loan will not apply to ffp calculations but the cash inject of the loan doesn't increase revenue and thus allow us to spend more. 

[Keegans Export]

19 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

I suspect we haven’t signed any new sponsorship deals because there’s a court case going on that directly impacts the potential value of our sponsorship deals 

Could we not say "OK we've accepted £5m/year because that's what your rules limit us to" then, if the rules change as a result of the court case, we can claim the extra however many million? Isn't that partly what City are chasing, lost income?

[TheBrownBottle]

43 minutes ago, Ben said:

 

I think I'm just clutching at straws at this point, we are close to being a good team again but have this massive millstone around our necks.

 

24 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

I suspect we haven’t signed any new sponsorship deals because there’s a court case going on that directly impacts the potential value of our sponsorship deals 

 

 

 

 

Why would we sacrifice three years of income on the chance that a court case might rule in our favour?  We could just sign new sponsorship deals if the court ruled that the old rules were thrown out.  If the plan was to put us on steroids then I would have expected that we would be at least on muscle supplements until the real stuff is legal.

 

We’ve had three years of almost zero communication from PIF.  Previous NUFC owners and board members were (correctly) excoriated for the same - yet somehow zero criticism appears to be aimed at the current ownership.  Tbh we feel rudderless at the moment.  It’s a familiar feeling at NUFC of course.  

[Lotus]

I am also disappointed with our lack of growth and plans for development. We can’t keep hoping the rules may change in our favour. How long do we play that card? The rules may change but not in our favour at all. There is surely plenty of opportunity for commercial deals that bring about a benefit even if not to stratospheric levels. They needn’t be. Good deals should be good enough for now.
There appears to be a clear lack of dynamism somewhere in the leadership. I’d warrant a good guess where that lies.

[TRon]

3 minutes ago, Lotus said:

I am also disappointed with our lack of growth and plans for development. We can’t keep hoping the rules may change in our favour. How long do we play that card? The rules may change but not in our favour at all. There is surely plenty of opportunity for commercial deals that bring about a benefit even if not to stratospheric levels. They needn’t be. Good deals should be good enough for now.
There appears to be a clear lack of dynamism somewhere in the leadership. I’d warrant a good guess where that lies.

 

Go on then.

[Groundhog63]

Anyone seen this? Last edition of Private Eye. 

 

[bobbydazzla]

3 hours ago, Keegans Export said:

Could we not say "OK we've accepted £5m/year because that's what your rules limit us to" then, if the rules change as a result of the court case, we can claim the extra however many million? Isn't that partly what City are chasing, lost income?

 

I don’t know how easy or difficult it would be to negotiate a deal that can then be increased if a court decision goes in our favour, I suspect it would make most potential sponsors a bit nervy 

 

But if I was looking to secure some high value sponsorship I wouldn’t be signing anyone up until the Man City case was decided and I knew the lie of the land on what I was able to charge

 

At the moment we’re in limbo, we don’t know how much we’re able to charge without falling foul of some snidey rules that have been put in place by a cartel to stop us from accessing maximum return from sponsorship deals

 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:44 by bobbydazzla

[The College Dropout]

4 hours ago, Ben said:

Why have we still not maximised our sponsorship deals ? Can we not just get a huge loan from the Saudis then pay fair market value interest ? It seems like we don't want to push for deals incase we upset the EPL.

 

#or has every loophole now been shut down and we are just stuck in a permanent mid table rut#

Great question.  
 

The little evidence we have - I don’t think our owners have us as a priority and are not 100% ‘locked-in’ mentally. 
 

There’s nothing stopping us making 1-year deals with exit clauses.  
 

Nothing stopping us loaning players from Saudi. 

[The College Dropout]

3 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

 

Why would we sacrifice three years of income on the chance that a court case might rule in our favour?  We could just sign new sponsorship deals if the court ruled that the old rules were thrown out.  If the plan was to put us on steroids then I would have expected that we would be at least on muscle supplements until the real stuff is legal.

 

We’ve had three years of almost zero communication from PIF.  Previous NUFC owners and board members were (correctly) excoriated for the same - yet somehow zero criticism appears to be aimed at the current ownership.  Tbh we feel rudderless at the moment.  It’s a familiar feeling at NUFC of course.  

Agreed.  

 

1 hour ago, Lotus said:

I am also disappointed with our lack of growth and plans for development. We can’t keep hoping the rules may change in our favour. How long do we play that card? The rules may change but not in our favour at all. There is surely plenty of opportunity for commercial deals that bring about a benefit even if not to stratospheric levels. They needn’t be. Good deals should be good enough for now.
There appears to be a clear lack of dynamism somewhere in the leadership. I’d warrant a good guess where that lies.

Agreed. 
 

There isn’t dynamism anywhere from the owners to suggest one thing is holding them back.  If we had stadium plans, training ground plans but just not this - I could believe the idea they were waiting for court rulings before announcing further deals. But atm it just sounds like copium. 
 

Someone pointed this out and it only just clicked. I think we all feel/think the FFP June fiasco played a large role in Staveleys and Mehrdads exit. But PIF let that happen and only held them accountable at the very end. PIF let people who have never led a football club previously fuck up the finances and got rid of them when it hit the fan.  It’s so passive yet demanding. 
 

Rudderless and lacking dynamism - yes that’s exactly it. 
 

This is the main reason I’m going easy on Howe. The entire project feels rudderless and lacking dynamism and it’s impacting everyone. 
 

Inm praying whoever we bring in as CEO can engage and challenge PIF and create that dynamism and be that rudderless. I don’t think Eales was doing that. But that would require PIF hiring someone that’s not a yes man or just happy to get the job.  Which is unlikely. 

[Lotus]

1 hour ago, TRon said:

 

Go on then.

I worked directly with and for Saudis for a fair few years. My own experience, and I think that shared by some better placed posters here who’ve actually worked in the Kingdom is that they are a fantastically uninspired group. Nothing innovative, no real drive, no piercing acumen. The higher up the worse it got. When there is just so much money sloshing around a country,  more than they could ever spend and oodles of cultural kudos as custodians of the Holy Mosques. There isn’t much left to achieve. I think it limits ambition. It doesn’t look like you can get anywhere unless you’re very well connected and if you’re very well connected, you don’t need to go anywhere because you’ve already arrived. 
The hardest I’ve seen a Saudi ‘try’ is to tell his underlings to give 200% instead of 100%. The notion of giving %100 so alien they think it possible to double it.

Some of the most charming people I’ve met for balance. 

But, when you’re a gazzilionaire  everything you buy or try is just a whim. It’s just a distraction from the monotony of exuberant wealth.

[The College Dropout]

14 minutes ago, Lotus said:

I worked directly with and for Saudis for a fair few years. My own experience, and I think that shared by some better placed posters here who’ve actually worked in the Kingdom is that they are a fantastically uninspired group. Nothing innovative, no real drive, no piercing acumen. The higher up the worse it got. When there is just so much money sloshing around a country,  more than they could ever spend and oodles of cultural kudos as custodians of the Holy Mosques. There isn’t much left to achieve. I think it limits ambition. It doesn’t look like you can get anywhere unless you’re very well connected and if you’re very well connected, you don’t need to go anywhere because you’ve already arrived. 
The hardest I’ve seen a Saudi ‘try’ is to tell his underlings to give 200% instead of 100%. The notion of giving %100 so alien they think it possible to double it.

Some of the most charming people I’ve met for balance. 

But, when you’re a gazzilionaire  everything you buy or try is just a whim. It’s just a distraction from the monotony of exuberant wealth.

When they bought the club some quarters doubted the Saudis acumen.  At least in comparison to Abu Dhabi. 
 

Staveley definitely brought dynamism.  I personally find Yassir charismatic.  But atm they aren’t delivering at leadership.  I’m growing into the view that PIF are demanding but not dynamic/innovative. you can’t win at football being like that. Demanding Europe with a distant 7/8 revenue. Slow roads on pieces that would move the needle. 

 

Villa are having similar issues to us but at least their owners are aggressive. With the wealth and power Saudi have - if PIF were as aggressive we would be much further ahead.  
 

Is there anything else you could share re: working in Saudi that would be relevant to us?

 

 

Edited Monday at 11:21 by The College Dropout

[et tu brute]

The doom clan back again I see

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

1 hour ago, Lotus said:

I worked directly with and for Saudis for a fair few years. My own experience, and I think that shared by some better placed posters here who’ve actually worked in the Kingdom is that they are a fantastically uninspired group. Nothing innovative, no real drive, no piercing acumen. The higher up the worse it got. When there is just so much money sloshing around a country,  more than they could ever spend and oodles of cultural kudos as custodians of the Holy Mosques. There isn’t much left to achieve. I think it limits ambition. It doesn’t look like you can get anywhere unless you’re very well connected and if you’re very well connected, you don’t need to go anywhere because you’ve already arrived. 
The hardest I’ve seen a Saudi ‘try’ is to tell his underlings to give 200% instead of 100%. The notion of giving %100 so alien they think it possible to double it.

Some of the most charming people I’ve met for balance. 

But, when you’re a gazzilionaire  everything you buy or try is just a whim. It’s just a distraction from the monotony of exuberant wealth.

 

Reminds me of when i was teaching Saudi students at the Defence College of Aeronautical Engineering (ooh get me, trust me not as grandiose as it sounds) One of our civilian instructors kept using manyana, to describe when theyd get some information. One of the Suadi students asked him to explain what that meant, he obliged, they then exclaimed "that will be why we don't understand, there is no word for such haste in our language"

[The College Dropout]

No gloom over here - just trying to assess things as they are (with what we know, knowing we don’t know it all). 
 

I genuinely think the issues at the top are impacting the team substantially. The atmosphere has shifted. 
 

 

[nufcjmc]

4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

No gloom over here - just trying to assess things as they are (with what we know, knowing we don’t know it all). 
 

I genuinely think the issues at the top are impacting the team substantially. The atmosphere has shifted. 
 

 

Agreed about the element of riding a positive wave has now seemingly died off. This would stretch back to before the summer window with the injuries, failing to qualify for Europe etc. 

 

Right now we could do with artificially or not creating that positivity again either on the field with performances and cup run or off the field through lucrative sponsors, stadium, training ground development etc the fact that so far the club when asked have been prickly about the sponsor thing is a worry as like others have said sign a short term 2 year deal and least it helps in the here and now. Unless they 100% sure any sponsorships soon can have a few more zeros on it seems to be another anker holding us back. 

[et tu brute]

10 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

No gloom over here - just trying to assess things as they are (with what we know, knowing we don’t know it all). 
 

I genuinely think the issues at the top are impacting the team substantially. The atmosphere has shifted. 
 

 

You're assessing based off nothing though as you haven't a clue what is actually happening. The only thing we have heard of lately is the strong likelihood of a new stadium costing 2 billion or more, that certainly doesn't sound like PIF not being interested. As for the sponsorship, they will be waiting for the Man City APT case to be finally resolved and the tribunal clarification, which is totally the right thing to do. 

[Maggies]

11th December should be date for rubber stamping Saudi getting the 2034 World Cup. Do we expect anything to start gathering pace post that date?

Feels like needing to keep UEFA/FIFA onside means they’re not willing to rattle the cart much. It does however give us a long term view what Saudi are working towards.

[The College Dropout]

12 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

You're assessing based off nothing though as you haven't a clue what is actually happening. The only thing we have heard of lately is the strong likelihood of a new stadium costing 2 billion or more, that certainly doesn't sound like PIF not being interested. As for the sponsorship, they will be waiting for the Man City APT case to be finally resolved and the tribunal clarification, which is totally the right thing to do. 

Waiting for the APT case is a lack of dynamism. City will be suing for losses earnings if successful and will then immediately bump up the sponsors. Why are we waiting?

 

Training ground, stadium - slow. 
 

They let Staveley and co. put us in a hole they only corrected at the very last minute.  
 

 

We are 3 years in.  The lack of progress, is evidence. They talk a great game.  They seem to demand a lot from the staff. Without showing great dynamism, direction or acumen themselves.  
 

The public misalignment between Howe and Mitchelll is another example.  PIF should set the mandate. That doesn’t happen with strong leadership. 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

19 minutes ago, Maggies said:

11th December should be date for rubber stamping Saudi getting the 2034 World Cup. Do we expect anything to start gathering pace post that date?

Feels like needing to keep UEFA/FIFA onside means they’re not willing to rattle the cart much. It does however give us a long term view what Saudi are working towards.

 

If nothing else the handover is then 2030 and I'm sure they'd love to have a European winner in the hand over glitz, or they may of course just hoover up a load of past t he prime a listers in 2029 to promote their league

[The College Dropout]

20 minutes ago, Maggies said:

11th December should be date for rubber stamping Saudi getting the 2034 World Cup. Do we expect anything to start gathering pace post that date?

Feels like needing to keep UEFA/FIFA onside means they’re not willing to rattle the cart much. It does however give us a long term view what Saudi are working towards.

Doesn’t impact stadium, training ground, doing what we can.  
 

In any case, do you think we are central to their World Cup plans? Genuine question.  

[Stal]

53 minutes ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 

Reminds me of when i was teaching Saudi students at the Defence College of Aeronautical Engineering (ooh get me, trust me not as grandiose as it sounds) One of our civilian instructors kept using manyana, to describe when theyd get some information. One of the Suadi students asked him to explain what that meant, he obliged, they then exclaimed "that will be why we don't understand, there is no word for such haste in our language"

 

I was talking to someone on Saturday about this very expression and that he discovered that when someone at his work said a task would be done "manyana" that it it didn't mean "tomorrow", it just meant "not today". Odd coincidence.

[et tu brute]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Waiting for the APT case is a lack of dynamism. City will be suing for losses earnings if successful and will then immediately bump up the sponsors. Why are we waiting?

 

Training ground, stadium - slow. 
 

They let Staveley and co. put us in a hole they only corrected at the very last minute.  
 

 

We are 3 years in.  The lack of progress, is evidence. They talk a great game.  They seem to demand a lot from the staff. Without showing great dynamism, direction or acumen themselves.  
 

The public misalignment between Howe and Mitchelll is another example.  PIF should set the mandate. That doesn’t happen with strong leadership. 

Because we will be in a situation to then bump sponsorship also, again you're guessing on what the current situation is. We don't know what or what has not been submitted to the premier league already.
 

Training ground they have spent millions updating the current one and I'm quite sure we will hear something with the announcement of the stadium. As for the stadium we will hear the decision pretty soon and if it is Leazes Park, then I'm not surprised that will have

took three years to resolve.

 

They had trust with Staveley (as did nearly all of our fans) and made the decision to let her and her husband go due to a combination of the problems occurring and her own company insolvency issues/court cases. 
 

Howe and Mitchell I've no doubt will have been told exactly what the situation is. 
 

We've been told that announcements will be made in the new year, they will be judged correctly on those at that time. Instead of picking holes based on fuck all, why don't you just wait until those announcements are made. You're just making constant guesses, when you don't have a clue what is actually happening 

[54]

5 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Waiting for the APT case is a lack of dynamism. City will be suing for losses earnings if successful and will then immediately bump up the sponsors. Why are we waiting?

 

Training ground, stadium - slow. 
 

They let Staveley and co. put us in a hole they only corrected at the very last minute.  
 

 

We are 3 years in.  The lack of progress, is evidence. They talk a great game.  They seem to demand a lot from the staff. Without showing great dynamism, direction or acumen themselves.  
 

The public misalignment between Howe and Mitchelll is another example.  PIF should set the mandate. That doesn’t happen with strong leadership. 

That is literally all your opinion though and not fact, and you can just as well make arguments against what you're saying. 

• In the last set of accounts our revenue had gone up 39% from the previous year, and that's not including the Adidas deal with is another £30m-£40m dependent on who you listen too, that's not exactly awful like some make out. 
• The Training ground has been redeveloped and extended completely since they took over, they've bought the adjacent land off Northumberland FA, and have already mentioned that they're looking for land to build a new facility.
• Stadiums don't grow on trees, and going through planning as thoroughly as possible to ensure we stay in and around where SJP is, talking to stakeholders in the area etc. Its not dramatic to say that this decision is going to define and shape the club over the next century, it's paramount they get it right, and I would much rather they take there time and and do so that say build a cookie cutter facility on the each of the city.
• You mean the same hole that has given us as supporters some of the best memories in the last 20 years, got us from 20th to 4th in 18 months. Yes we may have had to sell a few young prospects that I really liked the look of, but I wouldn't trade anything that Staveley did for anything. As a fan who gives a shit about finances if emotionally we get to experience ecstatic moments.

You say there is a lack of progress, but its actually the complete opposite, they inherited a shell of a club, and have built it back up. People seem to forget that.

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, et tu brute said:

Because we will be in a situation to then bump sponsorship also, again you're guessing on what the current situation is. We don't know what or what has not been submitted to the premier league already.
 

Training ground they have spent millions updating the current one and I'm quite sure we will hear something with the announcement of the stadium. As for the stadium we will hear the decision pretty soon and if it is Leazes Park, then I'm not surprised that will have

took three years to resolve.

 

They had trust with Staveley (as did nearly all of our fans) and made the decision to let her and her husband go due to a combination of the problems occurring and her own company insolvency issues/court cases. 
 

Howe and Mitchell I've no doubt will have been told exactly what the situation is. 
 

We've been told that announcements will be made in the new year, they will be judged correctly on those at that time. Instead of picking holes based on fuck all, why don't you just wait until those announcements are made. You're just making constant guesses, when you don't have a clue what is actually happening 

No matter what - 3 years is a a long time to not have any concrete plans for stadium or training ground. 
 

You seem averse to admitting they’ve made any mistakes or could’ve done things better.  

[et tu brute]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

No matter what - 3 years is a a long time to not have any concrete plans for stadium or training ground. 
 

You seem averse to admitting they’ve made any mistakes or could’ve done things better.  

I don't go on guesswork maybe you should try doing that also. Every company in the world make mistakes or could have done things better. It's the end result what matters.