Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[Unbelievable]

2 minutes ago, gdm said:

Who said they are failing? They have odds massively stacked against them 

Shearergoal literally did on the previous page, then you and the usual suspects intimated as much by this of repeated line that they’re missing a trick by not having a training ground sponsor, stadium renaming, etc.

 

They’re not missing a trick. They are aware of their options (whereas we are not) and have made a conscious decision on how best to proceed. They’ve surely earned the trust of fans by their actions so far, wouldn’t you say..?

[Elliottman]

Just now, Unbelievable said:

Shearergoal literally did on the previous page, then you and the usual suspects intimated as much by this of repeated line that they’re missing a trick by not having a training ground sponsor, stadium renaming, etc.

 

They’re not missing a trick. They are aware of their options (whereas we are not) and have made a conscious decision on how best to proceed. They’ve surely earned the trust of fans by their actions so far, wouldn’t you say..?

Sitting at home behind a keyboard telling the likes of Eales, Silverstone and all those other guys they’ve hired who are the best in their fields they’re doing it wrong. Blows your mind. 

[gdm]

5 minutes ago, Unbelievable said:

Shearergoal literally did on the previous page, then you and the usual suspects intimated as much by this of repeated line that they’re missing a trick by not having a training ground sponsor, stadium renaming, etc.

 

They’re not missing a trick. They are aware of their options (whereas we are not) and have made a conscious decision on how best to proceed. They’ve surely earned the trust of fans by their actions so far, wouldn’t you say..?

I asked the question, I said it ‘have you wonder’ in a discussion about boosting income, I didn’t anywhere at any point say it was the right or wrong way to go about things or that any one is failing. I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes and neither do you. Get off your high horse. 

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by gdm

[54]

One thing I think we can all agree, is the fact as a football fan you need to have a degree in economics in order to follow your club, is fucking shit.

[Unbelievable]

13 minutes ago, GEFAFWISP said:

How long does that hold when you're talking years of lost revenue though? 3/5/10 years?

Maybe I am coming at it from a different angle. I wouldn’t demand, or even expect any football club owner to put massive amounts of their own money in. I do expect them to act in the best interest of the club however, and make it as competitive and self sustainable as it can be. From what I can tell that is exactly what our owners are doing. So far, despite their near limitless riches, they have done and are doing what any good owner could have done without resorting to throwing silly money around to buy success that would not be properly earned. For that I applaud them rather than criticise them. I much prefer this than for our club to be turned into PSG on steroids.

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Unbelievable

[Pixelphish]

4 minutes ago, 54 said:

One thing I think we can all agree, is the fact as a football fan you need to have a degree in economics in order to follow your club, is fucking shit.

 

Beyond the pale, it really is.

[The College Dropout]

PIF are spending lots of their own money as it is. If we are going to grow the football club owners will need to invest in the club. Substantially.  Loans or their own pockets. Fortunately ours are using their own money. 
 

Don’t pay much attention to this Deloitte list. Over the next 6 months clubs will publish their accounts and we will have an accurate view.  

[TRon]

13 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

We don’t need to rely on ‘the market’.  Sela and Noon didn’t come from ‘the market’. 

 

 

Yes, but as you yourself have said, they are typical of the sort of sponsorships which PSR won't bat an eyelid at. Because they'll make barely a dent in our ability to challenge the cartel.

[Shearergol]

10 minutes ago, Elliottman said:

Sitting at home behind a keyboard telling the likes of Eales, Silverstone and all those other guys they’ve hired who are the best in their fields they’re doing it wrong. Blows your mind. 

I didn’t say that. My point is the club are failing in that aspect, in comparison to the other clubs in that list. The odds are completely stacked against it ever changing, and it’s not the club I’m blaming.

 

in hindsight “failing” was the wrong word, but PSR and the likes are setup so we fail. Simple as that.

[TRon]

1 minute ago, Shearergol said:

I didn’t say that. My point is the club are failing in that aspect, in comparison to the other clubs in that list. The odds are completely stacked against it ever changing, and it’s not the club I’m blaming.

 

in hindsight “failing” was the wrong word, but PSR and the likes are setup so we fail. Simple as that.

 

 

Nicely done. I had to clarify using the word plummetting yesterday for the Pedant Police so these efforts should be appreciated.

[The College Dropout]

4 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

 

Yes, but as you yourself have said, they are typical of the sort of sponsorships which PSR won't bat an eyelid at. Because they'll make barely a dent in our ability to challenge the cartel.

Neither would the other sponsorships people name. Stadium, training kit etc. that’s no more than £8-15m per year. Thats 1 Tonali-ish signing or a Tino and Hall combo.  It’s significant but not a game changer. 

[TRon]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

Neither would the other sponsorships people name. Stadium, training kit etc. that’s no more than £8-15m per year. Thats 1 Tonali-ish signing or a Tino and Hall combo.  It’s significant but not a game changer. 

 

 

Which is why I'm not particularly fussed if we are taking some time over those type of sponsorships. We need the game changers which will make the PSR cartel spit their cornflakes out.

[Hhtoon]

If there was an easy fix I'm sure they'd do it and if it is the case they're waiting for a big bang then so be it. Large sections of the fanbase want signs of earlier success (4th) and maybe happy to sacrifice the longer term, whereas the club are potentially wanting the big prize (1st or at least CL every year) and happier to wait.

 

Admittedly the initial messaging from the club was ambitious and they may not have anticipated the PSR restrictions etc, but I think we need to accept that it's out of their hands and move on from that view.

 

Either way, we can only speculate. But I'm enjoying football again without the fear of relegation and some great players to watch so I'm content. For now 

[GEFAFWISP]

10 minutes ago, Unbelievable said:

Maybe I am coming at it from a different angle. I wouldn’t demand, or even expect any football club owner to put massive amounts of their own money in. I do expect them to act in the best interest of the club however, and make it as competitive and self sustainable as it can be. From what I can tell that is exactly what our owners are doing. So far, despite their near limitless riches, they have done and are doing what any good owner could have done without resorting to throwing silly money around to buy success that would not be properly earned. For that I applaud them rather than criticise them. I much prefer this than for our club to be turned into PSG on steroids.

 

 

 

Can't disagree there, good post. I do think it's becoming a fair criticism if we continue to lose out on these types of deals in hopes of a bigger one down the line, but I'm ecstatic that we're not being ran into the ground by Mike Ashley now, so of course criticism is tempered by that, even if PSR gaffs and KSA being glacial sometimes can be rightly highlighted as not ideal.

 

I do wonder what the thoughts on this would be if we're still not maximising these types of "quick win" sponsorships come say 2027 though...

[Dr.Spaceman]

29 minutes ago, Unbelievable said:

Of course. Football finance expert Dave Powell pretty much confirmed this in this great Everything is Black and White podcast (around 28:50 mark)

 

Still we get the same posters every couple of days coming in to explain to us how our owners are “failing”

 

 

 

 

 

Of course loads of people think they know more than the expert, just as loads of us think we could do a better job than the football managers, coaches, referees etc

 

33 minutes ago, gdm said:

Has to be a suitable middle ground. What’s better? 3 years with nothing and a big deal or 3 years with a decent deal with a view to better. 

 

We'll never know, so what's the point in anyone getting their knickers in a twist over it?

[Sima]

1 hour ago, gdm said:

Have to wonder why we have no training ground sponsor, training kit sponsor, fuck even naming rights for the stadium short term if we are planning to move. 3 sponsorship opportunities that would bring millions in

 

I'm still yet to be convinced that PIF are as all in as is presumed in a lot of places.  

 

These missed open goals do nothing to argue against that case. The same can be said for the lack of movement on at least a new training facility.

 

A common rebuttal is "Why undervalue if we qualify incase we qualify for the Champions League?".  That's why you load it with performance-related clauses in.

On the training facility, "You can't expect a training ground to be built within the first year!".  Well how about actually putting something out saying they have £80m earmarked for a training facility and they're looking at sites in the initial period of ownership? I appreciate that a stadium is a far bigger, more sensitive proposition.  Instead, the existing training ground which is largely shite has been given a lick of paint.

 

None of the current infrastructure developments look to have been outside of the clubs current cashflow.

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Sima

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

 

Which is why I'm not particularly fussed if we are taking some time over those type of sponsorships. We need the game changers which will make the PSR cartel spit their cornflakes out.

Those are blocked.  And we could really do with a couple more signings.  We are in a position where 1 signing is the difference between CL and nothing.  
 

It’s still significant. 

[gdm]

Just now, Dr.Spaceman said:

 

Of course loads of people think they know more than the expert, just as loads of us think we could do a better job than the football managers, coaches, referees etc

 

 

We'll never know, so what's the point in anyone getting their knickers in a twist over it?

I’m not I’m just discussing it. Asking the question as maybe someone will know better than me. I’m not deluded or daft enough to think I have the answers 

[TRon]

2 minutes ago, Hhtoon said:

If there was an easy fix I'm sure they'd do it and if it is the case they're waiting for a big bang then so be it. Large sections of the fanbase want signs of earlier success (4th) and maybe happy to sacrifice the longer term, whereas the club are potentially wanting the big prize (1st or at least CL every year) and happier to wait.

 

Admittedly the initial messaging from the club was ambitious and they may not have anticipated the PSR restrictions etc, but I think we need to accept that it's out of their hands and move on from that view.

 

Either way, we can only speculate. But I'm enjoying football again without the fear of relegation and some great players to watch so I'm content. For now 

 

 

I do wonder if our owners have lost a little bit of interest now it's become clear our way to the top is going to be blocked using any means possible. But that's just not easy to verify one way or the other thanks to the dilligence the PL is applying to protecting the cartel. You make one step forward then you have to take two steps back, like selling your most promising young talent to balance books which don't need balancing.

[Sima]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

 

I do wonder if our owners have lost a little bit of interest now it's become clear our way to the top is going to be blocked using any means possible. But that's just not easy to verify one way or the other thanks to the dilligence the PL is applying to protecting the cartel. You make one step forward then you have to take two steps back, like selling your most promising young talent to balance books which don't need balancing.

 

Especially considering Saudi clubs are already in the Club World Cup.  How much would they have to invest in us to reach that level given the current qualifying criteria?  You're talking billions.

[The Prophet]

1 hour ago, Groundhog63 said:

 

Agreed. You have to wonder why the, obvs, earners have been established? These Training Ground Sponsors, Training Kit? Stadium? 

Rather than think, like some, that Silverstone is just scratching his arse I'm more thinking they've been, deliberately, held back. 

 

I think Silverstone commented in it around this time last year.

 

If I recall, he said it was a priority, but a really competitive area where they want to find the right partner rather than being locked in a subpar deal for a number of years.

[Dr.Spaceman]

6 minutes ago, gdm said:

I’m not I’m just discussing it. Asking the question as maybe someone will know better than me. I’m not deluded or daft enough to think I have the answers 

 

I wasn't insinuating anything 

[gdm]

The current PSR rules are unsustainable. It’ll have to change. 
 

That’s my hope anyway 

[Erikse]

5 minutes ago, Sima said:

 

Especially considering Saudi clubs are already in the Club World Cup.  How much would they have to invest in us to reach that level given the current qualifying criteria?  You're talking billions.

 

Our owners net worth is 25 times higher than nr. 2 in the Prem. I don't think they're too concerned about spending large amounts of money. It's all about the restrictions on spending.

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Erikse

[TRon]

1 minute ago, Sima said:

 

Especially considering Saudi clubs are already in the Club World Cup.  How much would they have to invest in us to reach that level given the current qualifying criteria?  You're talking billions.

 

 

How much would anyone invest when they know the path to becoming a big hitter is blocked? IMO if PIF can't do it, no one else will.