Yoane Wissa

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, TheEntertainer said:

Did they? I thought I'd read they offered the player significantly more, I thought the offer to the club was slightly lower, but the wages were a lot higher, I may be misremembering though. There's a world without PSR where we can do what City did on the way up and just massively overpay everyone to get them in over the bigger clubs. I'm not sure that's the best idea and even then some players still wouldn't choose us, but it would definitely give us more pulling power. 

The lad clearly wanted to sign for them - he wasn’t interested from the moment they expressed an interest.  And I don’t blame him - I wouldn’t choose NUFC over Man Utd or Chelsea if I was a foreign player.  
 

There’s no evidence at all that PIF were going to ever do a Man City / PSG with us.  They don’t operate in the same way as Abu Dhabi or Qatar.  

[Yorkie]

@TheBrownBottle I feel like you keep missing the point that PSR invited these clubs to get all rather than some. If the regs don't facilitate that stock-piling of triple-A players, then suddenly, some of those players become available to the likes of us.

 

That's why I threw Trafford into the mix. If City don't have the flexibility to sign two elite goalkeepers - both of whom would walk into the vast majority of PL sides - then I don't think they go for Trafford. They were hardly lovestruck; they got him knowing they'd still be able to get a Donnarumma if they became available. We're light-years from being able to operate like that. 

 

I don't want to go tinhat but they probably signed him as much just to stop us than anything else.

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, Yorkie said:

@TheBrownBottle I feel like you keep missing the point that PSR invited these clubs to get all rather than some. If the regs don't facilitate that stock-piling of triple-A players, then suddenly, some of those players become available to the likes of us.

 

That's why I threw Trafford into the mix. If City don't have the flexibility to sign two elite goalkeepers - both of whom would walk into the vast majority of PL sides - then I don't think they go for Trafford. They were hardly lovestruck; they got him knowing they'd still be able to get a Donnarumma if they became available. We're light-years from being able to operate like that. 

 

I don't want to go tinhat but they probably signed him as much just to stop us than anything else.

No, I agree with you on pretty much everything you’ve written here - the Sky Six can stack their entire 25-man squad with expensive players, where we are liable to only be able to stock around half that number.  Completely agree - though all things being equal, most players will still choose an established club first.  If I was a pro footballer someone suddenly chucked loads of money at Empoli, I’d still be more interested in AC Milan if they bid for me too. 
 

I also wear that tinfoil hat  - I also think Man City signed him for precisely that reason - but I don’t think they let Trafford in on that.  Which tbh shows that the lad is a bit of a daft cunt - there’s no chance that a Man City takes a punt on a second division goalie being their number 1.  

[r0cafella]

15 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

No, I agree with you on pretty much everything you’ve written here - the Sky Six can stack their entire 25-man squad with expensive players, where we are liable to only be able to stock around half that number.  Completely agree - though all things being equal, most players will still choose an established club first.  If I was a pro footballer someone suddenly chucked loads of money at Empoli, I’d still be more interested in AC Milan if they bid for me too. 
 

I also wear that tinfoil hat  - I also think Man City signed him for precisely that reason - but I don’t think they let Trafford in on that.  Which tbh shows that the lad is a bit of a daft cunt - there’s no chance that a Man City takes a punt on a second division goalie being their number 1.  

Man city do what any well functioning club do. They best the goalkeeper they can afford because failing to do so costs a lot of points. If a nobody like James Trafford is upset by that he will just be moved ok to crystal palace and city will get paid and then take a piece of the next sale as well. 

 

Clubs like city care about winning and that's it. They got a sniff and absolute legend like KDB was finished and he was out of the door the next summer. 

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, r0cafella said:

Man city do what any well functioning club do. They best the goalkeeper they can afford because failing to do so costs a lot of points. If a nobody like James Trafford is upset by that he will just be moved ok to crystal palace and city will get paid and then take a piece of the next sale as well. 

 

Clubs like city care about winning and that's it. They got a sniff and absolute legend like KDB was finished and he was out of the door the next summer. 

Absolutely - the best clubs and managers are utterly ruthless.  Ferguson was the same with the likes of Roy Keane.  I get the impression that if that was us, Roy Keane would be in the dressing room still, doling out sandwiches (no prawn ones) and being part of the ‘leadership group’ after his fifteenth one year contract extension. 

[r0cafella]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Absolutely - the best clubs and managers are utterly ruthless.  Ferguson was the same with the likes of Roy Keane.  I get the impression that if that was us, Roy Keane would be in the dressing room still, doling out sandwiches (no prawn ones) and being part of the ‘leadership group’ after his fifteenth one year contract extension. 

Thats the trend for us aye. We put a lot of focus on character and leaders but where are they? They've been MIA since after the cup final. We have so many issues throughout the entire club I don't even know where to start  

[TheBrownBottle]

8 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Thats the trend for us aye. We put a lot of focus on character and leaders but where are they? They've been MIA since after the cup final. We have so many issues throughout the entire club I don't even know where to start  

They were all out front when the momentum was with us - but character is about how you react to losing as much is at is about winning.   There’s some of them who are club legends, but they’ve shrunk within themselves as the season saunters on.  I actually like Joelinton raging at the bench on Saturday, gannin proper radge is right response

[r0cafella]

5 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

They were all out front when the momentum was with us - but character is about how you react to losing as much is at is about winning.   There’s some of them who are club legends, but they’ve shrunk within themselves as the season saunters on.  I actually like Joelinton raging at the bench on Saturday, gannin proper radge is right response

Seems like big Joe was the only won who realised that such performances from all involved aren't acceptable in any shape or form. Some people have extremely low standards where as others like Big Joe aren't having it. 

 

I think the worst thing about all of this is, we simply have too much to do in the summer and I don't see a world where we get close to doing everything we need to. We, as a club have one defining trait in my eyes and that is putting things off but things are starting to reach a point where it's no longer possible to do so without falling backwards. 

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, r0cafella said:

Seems like big Joe was the only won who realised that such performances from all involved aren't acceptable in any shape or form. Some people have extremely low standards where as others like Big Joe aren't having it. 

 

I think the worst thing about all of this is, we simply have too much to do in the summer and I don't see a world where we get close to doing everything we need to. We, as a club have one defining trait in my eyes and that is putting things off but things are starting to reach a point where it's no longer possible to do so without falling backwards. 

One of the great dangers of football is allowing a side to age itself out - we’ve got far too many who should’ve been moved on when they still had value.  Then we whine about PSR despite refusing to do what pretty much every other club in the top flight does and sell players at the right time. 

[Froggy]

20 hours ago, TheEntertainer said:

Did they? I thought I'd read they offered the player significantly more, I thought the offer to the club was slightly lower, but the wages were a lot higher, I may be misremembering though. There's a world without PSR where we can do what City did on the way up and just massively overpay everyone to get them in over the bigger clubs. I'm not sure that's the best idea and even then some players still wouldn't choose us, but it would definitely give us more pulling power. 

 

Yes. This was confirmed by Sesko's agent, and Andy Mitten (who only deals in concrete facts) reported this recently on a podcast as well stating that you offered Sesko more money than we did.

 

It's why falling back on PSR as an excuse isn't always the way to go. Of course the argument is there that it benefits the bigger clubs, but I think it's disingenuous using it as an excuse for Newcastle's summer window. Newcastle signed Elanga, Woltemade, Wissa and Ramsey for more than what we paid for Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha and Lammens for example. £500k vs. £550k in reported wages as well as that's usually go-to after the spend is similar.

 

19 hours ago, Yorkie said:

That's why I threw Trafford into the mix. If City don't have the flexibility to sign two elite goalkeepers - both of whom would walk into the vast majority of PL sides - then I don't think they go for Trafford. They were hardly lovestruck; they got him knowing they'd still be able to get a Donnarumma if they became available. We're light-years from being able to operate like that. 

 

They were two smart buys from City. Your net spend was double theirs in the summer. Even with their big January where they signed Guehi and Semenyo your net spend for the year is similar. City know that you'll likely come back in for Trafford as well so why on earth wouldn't they exercise their option to sign him? They'll make a profit on him and Donnarumma's market value is far higher than what they paid for him.

 

Genuine question. At what point do you just say that the recruitment was bad instead of blaming PSR on it? 

[r0cafella]

3 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

Yes. This was confirmed by Sesko's agent, and Andy Mitten (who only deals in concrete facts) reported this recently on a podcast as well stating that you offered Sesko more money than we did.

 

It's why falling back on PSR as an excuse isn't always the way to go. Of course the argument is there that it benefits the bigger clubs, but I think it's disingenuous using it as an excuse for Newcastle's summer window. Newcastle signed Elanga, Woltemade, Wissa and Ramsey for more than what we paid for Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha and Lammens for example. £500k vs. £550k in reported wages as well as that's usually go-to after the spend is similar.

 

 

They were two smart buys from City. Your net spend was double theirs in the summer. Even with their big January where they signed Guehi and Semenyo your net spend for the year is similar. City know that you'll likely come back in for Trafford as well so why on earth wouldn't they exercise their option to sign him? They'll make a profit on him and Donnarumma's market value is far higher than what they paid for him.

 

Genuine question. At what point do you just say that the recruitment was bad instead of blaming PSR on it? 

Recruitment was poor (may come good in the future who knows) but psr is obviously a fact and designed solely to keep upstarts out of the big boy room. 

 

[Froggy]

1 minute ago, r0cafella said:

Recruitment was poor (may come good in the future who knows) but psr is obviously a fact and designed solely to keep upstarts out of the big boy room. 

 

I'm not going to argue against this, but it's not a factor at all in your summer window IMO.

 

Yorkie (x) last week or the week before suggested that we got Sesko and you ended up with Woltemade because of PSR. This is despite the fact that Newcastle offered higher wages than us for Sesko and their respective transfer fees being very similar anyway. What makes it even more fickle, is that three months ago people on here were acting like they were glad they missed out on Sesko as Woltemade is better, even though that clearly is not and never was the case.

 

PSR had absolutely nothing to do with it. You were making big money offers both in transfer fees and wages for players, but they just wanted to go elsewhere. That's something that happens every club as well, including us. It's not exclusive to Newcastle.

[r0cafella]

6 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

I'm not going to argue against this, but it's not a factor at all in your summer window IMO.

 

Yorkie (x) last week or the week before suggested that we got Sesko and you ended up with Woltemade because of PSR. This is despite the fact that Newcastle offered higher wages than us for Sesko and their respective transfer fees being very similar anyway. What makes it even more fickle, is that three months ago people on here were acting like they were glad they missed out on Sesko as Woltemade is better, even though that clearly is not and never was the case.

 

PSR had absolutely nothing to do with it. You were making big money offers both in transfer fees and wages for players, but they just wanted to go elsewhere. That's something that happens every club as well, including us. It's not exclusive to Newcastle.

If you want to isolate it to one pure window you may have a point but such an argument would be rather silly. 

[Froggy]

Just now, r0cafella said:

If you want to isolate it to one pure window you may have a point but such an argument would be rather silly. 

 

100%. Solely pointing to the comments made about this window. 

[r0cafella]

Just now, Froggy said:

 

100%. Solely pointing to the comments made about this window. 

As you know a lot of factors exist for the summer window and one of the most depressing aspects of it is the if only we got x player when they were never coming here for a variety of reasons. 

[Smal]

we probably wouldn’t have had to sell the guy who fucked the entire season if it weren’t for psr, so even if you do isolate it to last summer it’s the biggest factor.

[Froggy]

Just now, Smal said:

we probably wouldn’t have had to sell the guy who fucked the entire season if it weren’t for psr, so even if you do isolate it to last summer it’s the biggest factor.

 

Selling Isak was nothing to do with PSR. Come on. 

[r0cafella]

4 minutes ago, Smal said:

we probably wouldn’t have had to sell the guy who fucked the entire season if it weren’t for psr, so even if you do isolate it to last summer it’s the biggest factor.

Cmon Smal, this isn't it man. 

[Smal]

of course it had something to do with it. He wanted more money the summer before and we didn’t give it to him because we have a wage structure with a relatively low ceiling compared to ESL clubs.

 

I’d still have given it to him and Mitchell is obviously an incompetent cunt but to say it had nothing to do with PSR is obvious nonsense. Can tell man u have won a few games recently. 

[Froggy]

6 minutes ago, Smal said:

of course it had something to do with it. He wanted more money the summer before and we didn’t give it to him because we have a wage structure with a relatively low ceiling compared to ESL clubs.

 

I’d still have given it to him and Mitchell is obviously an incompetent cunt but to say it had nothing to do with PSR is obvious nonsense. 

 

He wanted to go to Liverpool. If he expressed interest in staying he would have been offered a big contract and you wouldn't have signed Woltemade. Simple as that. It was nothing to do with PSR.

 

6 minutes ago, Smal said:

Can tell man u have won a few games recently. 

 

Called this stuff out constantly since we signed Sesko. Our results have no bearing on my voice. We were sitting in the CL spots under Amorim too.  

 

 

Edited March 2 by Froggy

[LFEE]

45 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

Yes. This was confirmed by Sesko's agent, and Andy Mitten (who only deals in concrete facts) reported this recently on a podcast as well stating that you offered Sesko more money than we did.

 

It's why falling back on PSR as an excuse isn't always the way to go. Of course the argument is there that it benefits the bigger clubs, but I think it's disingenuous using it as an excuse for Newcastle's summer window. Newcastle signed Elanga, Woltemade, Wissa and Ramsey for more than what we paid for Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha and Lammens for example. £500k vs. £550k in reported wages as well as that's usually go-to after the spend is similar.

 

 

They were two smart buys from City. Your net spend was double theirs in the summer. Even with their big January where they signed Guehi and Semenyo your net spend for the year is similar. City know that you'll likely come back in for Trafford as well so why on earth wouldn't they exercise their option to sign him? They'll make a profit on him and Donnarumma's market value is far higher than what they paid for him.

 

Genuine question. At what point do you just say that the recruitment was bad instead of blaming PSR on it? 

Not quite a simple question is it though? If all things were as planned we’d have Isak still and added Pedro/Ekitike and Trafford and would’ve already had Guehi and Szoboszlai  bedded in for 12 months.

 

We are 8th in the pecking order though with our wage bill. Historically teams disadvantaged geographically or successfully who need to catch up need to overpay in fees and wages in a very short space of time to maintain the the ability to retain the players. See Chelsea and Man City previous decades.

 

Thats where PSR is evil genius how it is set up as it doesn’t allow this. It only allows it for a couple of years before you’ve got to start selling your best players instead as in the past building further upon them. 

 

So all in all our recruitment team are targeting the right players. PSR prevents us from attracting them on top of signing them. So you are left signing others that don’t move the needle very far or simply maintain it when you are already a cup winning team finishing 5th.

 

So the only argument to be had really is should we have signed Wissa and Nic or kept the money in the bank instead and re-evaluate as didn’t seem much left in the market for us. I would’ve kept the money in the bank and signed Vardy and DCL on frees and looked again in January but I can also appreciate the outcry that would’ve caused 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by LFEE

[Yorkie]

@Froggy I've made the point over and over again that PSR allows the likes of you to make mistake after mistake and also stockpile the most coveted players. You'd already signed Mbeumo and Cunha by the time you were in for Sesko because the financial regulations are incredibly accommodating for you. The absolute disasters of the Antony, Hojlund, Sancho (to name a few) have had absolutely zero ramifications in enabling you to rebuild this summer. 

 

The central point is that you're not even at the table for Sesko if the financial regs are more evenly applied.

 

37 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

Selling Isak was nothing to do with PSR. Come on. 

 

You what 🙃 It's exactly the same scenario here. Liverpool had already signed Wirtz and Ekitike and yet still had the capacity to go even bigger on Isak. If they're not at the table, he's still here - or they get him but Ekitike is still on the market.

 

I can't do another day of banging my head against this wall. If people want to criticise the choices we made with the resources we had, I can accept that: Woltemade was clearly a bit of a dicey move at that price and Elanga looks like a poor choice; personally I think Wissa was a sensible transfer and no one could reasonably expect the nightmare he's had. But to deny the influence of PSR is cloud cuckoo land stuff; it is the most dictating factor in the entire market.

 

I can take it from you, TBF, because obviously you will go into bat for your team and deny that the rules are extremely helpful to you. But it's having the argument with our own fans - who'd sooner curse us to the hills than deny the inherent unfairness which has left us scrambling for solutions - that drives me bonkers.  

[TheEntertainer]

1 hour ago, Froggy said:

 

Yes. This was confirmed by Sesko's agent, and Andy Mitten (who only deals in concrete facts) reported this recently on a podcast as well stating that you offered Sesko more money than we did.

 

It's why falling back on PSR as an excuse isn't always the way to go. Of course the argument is there that it benefits the bigger clubs, but I think it's disingenuous using it as an excuse for Newcastle's summer window. Newcastle signed Elanga, Woltemade, Wissa and Ramsey for more than what we paid for Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha and Lammens for example. £500k vs. £550k in reported wages as well as that's usually go-to after the spend is similar.

 

 

They were two smart buys from City. Your net spend was double theirs in the summer. Even with their big January where they signed Guehi and Semenyo your net spend for the year is similar. City know that you'll likely come back in for Trafford as well so why on earth wouldn't they exercise their option to sign him? They'll make a profit on him and Donnarumma's market value is far higher than what they paid for him.

 

Genuine question. At what point do you just say that the recruitment was bad instead of blaming PSR on it? 

I read into it after posting that and we offered him more base, but you offered him more 'if' you make Champions league, so it's not really us offering more, but it probably does make the decision entirely down to preference rather than money as more garuanteed versus potentially more is probably a close decision. 

[500bhp]

I think too many people blame PSR without looking at the bigger picture or from the players perspective. If the wages were broadly similar would you sign for us last summer over,

 

Liverpool, just won the PL.

Chelsea, just won the Club World Cup.

Man Utd, possibly the biggest club in the world. 

Man City, best English club of the last decade.

 

And that's just the sporting side. You can also live in the best parts of West London or Cheshire. 

 

Our rivals above all have a pedigree of consistently winning trophies in the last decade and are international brands. With hindsight I think we aimed too high last summer with our targets. Then were used to flush out other interested parties. We need to aim at the level below like we did in 2022 and 2023. We need to do to the likes of Brighton, Villa, Brentford etc what those clubs did to us. 

 

Of course PSR does have an impact. But we could have paid Isak £250k if we really wanted to. There was enough PSR headroom to do that, especially with the new contract being spread over 5 more years for amortisation. 

[Froggy]

6 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

@Froggy I've made the point over and over again that PSR allows the likes of you to make mistake after mistake and also stockpile the most coveted players. You'd already signed Mbeumo and Cunha by the time you were in for Sesko because the financial regulations are incredibly accommodating for you. The absolute disasters of the Antony, Hojlund, Sancho (to name a few) have had absolutely zero ramifications in enabling you to rebuild this summer. 

 

The central point is that you're not even at the table for Sesko if the financial regs are more evenly applied.

 

Yes we had already signed Mbeumo and Cunha, but has also shipped out 5-6 first team players by this point as well and the full knowledge was there that a full PSR profit sale of Garnacho was also imminent. I don't know why any of  that is overlooked. 

 

Hojlund will be a PSR gain as well and you're marking him as an "absolute disaster" which is part of the problem. This is a young lad we signed that was the clubs top scorer in his first season. You do know there's ~£40m coming in for him in a few months time? Napoli are obligated to buy him if they finish in the CL places. We've just upgraded on the lad, but he was never a bad player.

 

Antony and Sancho were indeed disasters, but you're using them as a barometer for why it's had no impact on our 2025 rebuild? We signed Sancho in 2021 and Antony in 2022. We were in the Champions League and needed centre mids, a left back and a striker and couldn't afford any more permanent signings. We had to get Reguillon, Amrabat, Weghorst and Sabitzer on loan. You think we would have signed them if wasn't for PSR? We'd have bought much better players.

 

26 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

You what 🙃 It's exactly the same scenario here. Liverpool had already signed Wirtz and Ekitike and yet still had the capacity to go even bigger on Isak. If they're not at the table, he's still here - or they get him but Ekitike is still on the market.

 

They signed Wirtz and Ekitike for £170m and sold Quansah, Diaz, Kelleher, Nunez and Doak for £170m.  When I say Newcastle have spent £250m+ in the summer, people will point to the net spend. Why don't we do it for other clubs as well if we're being fair? 

 

It just feels like you had the money and wages for the likes of Ekitike and Sesko etc. They just had a preference for other clubs. 

 

There's also a suggestion that the likes of Liverpool and Man United weren't even interested in these players but only signed them because Newcastle wanted them therefore they must be good. That's the most laughable suggestion of all IMO. We were scouting Sesko before he was out of nappies.