Nick Woltemade

[Andy]

6 hours ago, DC Magpie said:

 

I'll say it again:

 

Nick starts up top: 9 starts, 20 league points.

Anyone else up top: 24 starts, 22 league points.

 

These stats pop up a lot, but it's the whole correlation/causation thing. There are countless other factors contributing to our form than "Nick starts up top".  

 

He was banging them in at the start of the season but it was obvious to anyone that his form wouldn't and couldn't continue. Literally every touch was going in for him, it's a massive red flag when strikers aren't also missing chances. He wasn't even attempting shots. 

 

I don't think the alternatives are much better FWIW, but I can see why Eddie didn't and doesn't see him as the answer up there, particularly in the system he wants to play. 

[Zero]

Your whole argument is flawed by assuming the manager knows everything, which is proven wrong.

 

If Howe did know everything then tell me why the fuck we spent 120m on two strikers on bench and end up playing a 10m Osula who’s already in our team for long. He could just tell the management that Osula is perfect for his pressing tactics and there’s no fucking need to buy Nick and Wissa. Furthermore it’s not something you need to observe in training that Nick is not the best fit for pressing, yet we still get him for 65m?

[r0cafella]

Just now, Andy said:

 

These stats pop up a lot, but it's the whole correlation/causation thing. There are countless other factors contributing to our form than "Nick starts up top".  

 

He was banging them in at the start of the season but it was obvious to anyone that his form wouldn't and couldn't continue. Literally every touch was going in for him, it's a massive red flag when strikers aren't also missing chances. He wasn't even attempting shots. 

 

I don't think the alternatives are much better FWIW, but I can see why Eddie didn't and doesn't see him as the answer up there, particularly in the system he wants to play. 

Absolutely, if anything the only question that should actually exist is why did we buy a player who couldn't be more unsuited to the way we play?

 

I've got no time for this Eddie Vs Nick arguement I keep seeing honestly. 

[Zero]

Manager knows more than you and me doesn’t mean he is always free from stubbornness, man.

[Infinitely Content]

1 minute ago, Zero said:

Manager knows more than you and me doesn’t mean he is always free from stubbornness, man.

Eddie Howe isn’t trying to sabotage us or him though, if Woltemade was performing well both on the pitch and in training as a striker, he would be starting games there. Clearly he isn’t/wasn’t.

 

The mistake was buying him in the first place, not taking him out of the team.

[MagMal]

When wolfie played we looked disjointed but we were winning games and it was up to Eddie to sort that, he decided to stop playing him up front and if anything we became more disjointed, he should have gone back to trying to find a way to get the best out of wolfie and get the team playing around him, but we just stuck with our 433, that more than anything has got me frustrated with Eddie and ultimately I think it is what has caused him to loose the support of the players.

 

 

Edited April 20 by MagMal

[TheBrownBottle]

3 minutes ago, Zero said:

Your whole argument is flawed by assuming the manager knows everything, which is proven wrong.

 

If Howe did know everything then tell me why the fuck we spent 120m on two strikers on bench and end up playing a 10m Osula who’s already in our team for long. He could just tell the management that Osula is perfect for his pressing tactics and there’s no fucking need to buy Nick and Wissa. Furthermore it’s not something you need to observe in training that Nick is not the best fit for pressing, yet we still get him for 65m?

A manager can waste money on a player and then realise he’s dropped a clanger.  As a truly great football manager once said after wasting a shitload on a bad-fit centre forward:

 

 

[Zero]

12 minutes ago, Infinitely Content said:

Eddie Howe isn’t trying to sabotage us or him though, if Woltemade was performing well both on the pitch and in training as a striker, he would be starting games there. Clearly he isn’t/wasn’t.

 

The mistake was buying him in the first place, not taking him out of the team.

not when taking him out of the team resulted even worse performance for the team in the league, man…

 

If you mean we climbed up the league table and now sitting at around 6 then you can have this. Justified. But we are what? Just 3 points above Leeds? Yea I know dropping Nick is not the only factor, but you cannot argue that it is a factor.

 

I saw a lot of people saying Nick caused us performing ineffective pressing hence we didn’t perform well in the league. Now tell me does this argument still hold? Is this really the problem?

 

In the end it’s the ineffective Plan A that is the cause. That’s why I ask, why are we pressing? Yea Osula did press better, no question about that. But does it means better result? No, a fucking no. 
 

We have a ST that is exactly the way out from that fucking Plan A. Howe decided to  drop him and all-in his fucking Plan A despite proven to lost its magic for nearly a year. Then why are we surprised to be at 14th of the table? Plan A again and again? Osula above Nick and Wissa?

 

Wake up man…you guys still dreaming that Howe’s plan A would work as long as we tried? Gordon and Osula pressed like maniac and now what? 

 

 

Edited April 20 by Zero

[TRon]

20 minutes ago, Andy said:

 

These stats pop up a lot, but it's the whole correlation/causation thing. There are countless other factors contributing to our form than "Nick starts up top".  

 

He was banging them in at the start of the season but it was obvious to anyone that his form wouldn't and couldn't continue. Literally every touch was going in for him, it's a massive red flag when strikers aren't also missing chances. He wasn't even attempting shots. 

 

I don't think the alternatives are much better FWIW, but I can see why Eddie didn't and doesn't see him as the answer up there, particularly in the system he wants to play. 

 

 

The only redeeming factor for Woltemade would be if he could look any better in a different system. Not convinced myself, but would at least have liked to seen us give something like 4-4-2 a go. 

[PauloGeordio]

Just now, TRon said:

 

 

The only redeeming factor for Woltemade would be if he could look any better in a different system. Not convinced myself, but would at least have liked to seen us give something like 4-4-2 a go. 

[Jack14Bojangles]

I can hardly believe how some people here in the forum are questioning Nick's quality. Reading some of the derogatory comments, you'd think a blind, one-legged, old man was on the pitch.
 

I hope Wolte gets the chance to prove these comments wrong at another club or with a different coach at Toon. If he then scores 20 goals and assists, he'll have silenced these so-called experts.

[Jack14Bojangles]

6 minutes ago, Zero said:

not when taking him out of the team resulted even worse performance for the team in the league, man…

 

If you mean we climbed up the league table and now sitting at around 6 then you can have this. Justified. But we are what? Just 3 points above Leeds? Yea I know dropping Nick is not the only factor, but you cannot argue that it is a factor.

 

I saw a lot of people saying Nick caused us performing ineffective pressing hence we didn’t perform well in the league. Now tell me does this argument still hold? Is this really the problem?

 

In the end it’s the ineffective Plan A that is the cause. That’s why I ask, why are we pressing? Yea Osula did press better, no question about that. But does it means better result? No, a fucking no. 
 

We have a ST that is exactly the way out from that fucking Plan A. Howe decided to  drop him and all-in his fucking Plan A despite proven to lost its magic for nearly a year. Then why are we surprised to be at 14th of the table? Plan A again and again? Osula above Nick and Wissa?

 

Wake up man…you guys still dreaming that Howe’s plan A would work as long as we tried? Gordon and Osula pressed like maniac and now what? 

 

 

 

Very well said. 100% agreement. 

[TheBrownBottle]

30 minutes ago, Jack14Bojangles said:

I can hardly believe how some people here in the forum are questioning Nick's quality. Reading some of the derogatory comments, you'd think a blind, one-legged, old man was on the pitch.
 

I hope Wolte gets the chance to prove these comments wrong at another club or with a different coach at Toon. If he then scores 20 goals and assists, he'll have silenced these so-called experts.

Tbf I support Newcastle United, and you support Nick Woltemade.   We’re not coming at this from the same place  

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I really hope we can use Woltemade still, I don't think it's necessarily over. 

 

Even when he came on against Bournemouth he had a couple of good touches and passes. 

 

I know it hasn't happened yet but I wonder if this Bournemouth defeat will make Eddie accept that the season is basically over in terms of achievement and mix things up in a bigger way. Probably not against Arsenal away TBF, but overall. 

[Kid Icarus]

Classic case of a player that's not playing in an underperforming team being viewed more favourably than they were when they were actually in the team I think. 

 

Easy to forget that it wasn't working with him in the team as a CF due to his complete aversion to getting into the box or making standard CF runs when the ball was out wide. It's not working now and we should be giving him more game time, but it also doesn't mean that when he was playing everything was fine or even better. I really like him as a player, but I think both the comments that he doesn't play like a 9 and is currently a square peg in a round hole for the way we play are pretty on the money. If he'll come good or get the chance to come good I don't know, but here's hoping. 

 

From here for a reminder of what the general consensus was around November. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20 by Kid Icarus

[mayubeproud]

48 minutes ago, Zero said:

not when taking him out of the team resulted even worse performance for the team in the league, man…

 

If you mean we climbed up the league table and now sitting at around 6 then you can have this. Justified. But we are what? Just 3 points above Leeds? Yea I know dropping Nick is not the only factor, but you cannot argue that it is a factor.

 

I saw a lot of people saying Nick caused us performing ineffective pressing hence we didn’t perform well in the league. Now tell me does this argument still hold? Is this really the problem?

 

In the end it’s the ineffective Plan A that is the cause. That’s why I ask, why are we pressing? Yea Osula did press better, no question about that. But does it means better result? No, a fucking no. 
 

We have a ST that is exactly the way out from that fucking Plan A. Howe decided to  drop him and all-in his fucking Plan A despite proven to lost its magic for nearly a year. Then why are we surprised to be at 14th of the table? Plan A again and again? Osula above Nick and Wissa?

 

Wake up man…you guys still dreaming that Howe’s plan A would work as long as we tried? Gordon and Osula pressed like maniac and now what? 

 

 

 

I always scratch my head when the fans here seems to hate Nick. A lot of the times I see Nick being a better performer in the team but he still gets heavily criticized here. With Nick we can sometimes progress the ball vertically and create some real danger. Without Nick it is always sideway passes. That's the difference I can see watching our games.

[Infinitely Content]

I don't think anyone 'hates Nick' like  

I think you need a striker to offer a threat in behind occasionally, especially with so many teams playing with quite high lines these days. Woltemade will never be able to do that, so he has to compensate by being either elite in the box and able to link play up (Harry Kane), or by being brilliant at holding up the ball and fantastic aerially (Olivier Giroud). He's not good at either of them. In fact he's quite terrible at them. He offers one or two decent first touch passes per appearance and some good feet on occasion, it's just nowhere near enough to build an attack around.

I still don't even know if he's got a good shot on him.

The best case I can make for Woltemade is for him to play a Roberto Firmino type role, a facilitator, but there's a huge issue - Firmino was quite quick and had relentless defensive work rate and pressing ability. Woltemade doesn't.

 

 

Edited April 20 by Infinitely Content

[Holloway]

1 hour ago, Andy said:

 

These stats pop up a lot, but it's the whole correlation/causation thing. There are countless other factors contributing to our form than "Nick starts up top".  

 

He was banging them in at the start of the season but it was obvious to anyone that his form wouldn't and couldn't continue. Literally every touch was going in for him, it's a massive red flag when strikers aren't also missing chances. He wasn't even attempting shots. 

 

I don't think the alternatives are much better FWIW, but I can see why Eddie didn't and doesn't see him as the answer up there, particularly in the system he wants to play. 

*caressing 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We have to reserve judgement based on this season IMO. Everything has compounded and the worse we do the less likely Eddie is to give a new maverick player a run of games to show what he can do. 
 

Like I said, maybe the season now looking a write off will play in Woltemade’s favour. 

[Holloway]

with the talent that Nick has showcased so far and it's a fairly divisive subject on here, what is abundantly clear is that Eddie is struggling to know what to do with him, and that makes him a poor signing at around the reported 70 mill

[Fak]

Nicks still my boy. My number 1 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

4 minutes ago, Holloway said:

with the talent that Nick has showcased so far and it's a fairly divisive subject on here, what is abundantly clear is that Eddie is struggling to know what to do with him, and that makes him a poor signing at around the reported 70 mill

No doubt, but there are mitigating factors. If the team was playing well and Wissa was banging in goals we would’ve had the luxury to integrate Woltemade slowly and take risks in certain games. 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Have we had a better league performance this season - as a team - than Everton away?

 

That should have been the blueprint 

[Holloway]

11 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

No doubt, but there are mitigating factors. If the team was playing well and Wissa was banging in goals we would’ve had the luxury to integrate Woltemade slowly and take risks in certain games. 

yeah I agree, the Wissa injury was a horrific stroke of luck for us given the general situation. But I can't help wondering where Eddie was planning on playing Nick given his strengths and weaknesses as a striker. I don't think a lot of homework was done, I think we just plunged in. And we're un fortunately seeing the result (so far)

[DC Magpie]

1 hour ago, Infinitely Content said:

Eddie Howe isn’t trying to sabotage us or him though, if Woltemade was performing well both on the pitch and in training as a striker, he would be starting games there. Clearly he isn’t/wasn’t.

 

The mistake was buying him in the first place, not taking him out of the team.

 

I'll hand it to both of us - you and I are nothing if not predictable. Cheers.

 

There is a fine line between sabotage and ineptitude. Nobody thinks Eddie is trying to lose (though he's doing a damn fine job of it you'd have to admit). But he knows one way of approaching things and it doesn't work any more. Eddie doesn't have an answer, and the players have figured that part out. He's lost the team. (Alternate theory: Howe has a master plan to switch things up, but feels he can't because if it works he'll look even dumber for waiting so long and tanking the season. Ha.)

 

Thing is, we're too sentimental. The big boys don't wait around. If the team isn't performing, the coach goes. Liverpool's about to sack Slot and he won the league last year and looks to be headed back to the UCL. Man U and Chelsea changed mid-season and even City gutted their entire staff under Pep last summer. Admittedly, the grass isn't always greener when you change coaches (hello Chelsea you inglorious twats), but you can't wait around while things get worse and worse and worse.

 

PS - when is the last time you saw Nick on the pitch as a striker? Maybe he's dogging it in practice, but he's not been given a proper chance on the pitch for months. And if it was a mistake to sign Wolt (I disagree), where does that blame lie exactly?