St James' Park

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, OpenC said:

It doesn't look like that any more, amazingly. Somewhere between that picture and the Shopper's Paradise Cinema experience that some appear to be pining for, you will find the current St James' Park. 

 

It's just a place to go and watch a game of football then get back out into the amazing city. I'm honestly not sure what else people are clamouring for that they can't already get within about a quarter of a mile of the ground. Shops aren't 'facilities'  neither is terrible overpriced stadium food and drink  

 

I can't help but feel a lot of people are missing the main selling point of a city centre stadium and what makes Newcastle different to a lot of other places. It's not like you're going to be parking up in a godforsaken out of town retail park like you do at other stadiums, where the only way to pass the time is browsing washing machines at Curry's  the city, as someone once sang, is here for you to use

 

 

 

Funny thing is that I’m one of those that absolutely hates these elements of modern football, and does get sentimental for ‘piss in the pockets’ football ground experiences.  I miss terracing and the feel of a crumbling old ground.  I miss the days when any working class person to go with their mates and afford to get into the ground, and stand together, and make a racket - and that you could do that from when you were old enough that your mam said you could get the bus to the toon.  

 

But I never found that the current SJP replicated that in any way - it’s just a halfway house between the two.  You don’t get what you used to get - it’s already a completely different (sanitised) experience to what it once was.  The idea that the current SJP is rooted in its community is a mystery to me - it always felt corporate and a bit grim.

 

I don’t at all like the commercialisation of football nor of its stadiums; I don’t like organised fun wank like ‘fan zones’, nor hotdogs to your seat, comfy chairs and directors boxes.  I hate that the sport has been wrenched from its working class roots, and commodified for the middle aged and middle class.  I couldn’t give two shites if SJP hosts Ed Sheeran to play MOR elevator music to tasteless hordes.  But I know that to compete at the highest level, we have to get on that shitty gravy train.   There’s nothing misty-eyed old fuckers like me can do about that now. 

[Keegans Export]

49 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

This one gets said a lot on here, but surely the proof is in the pudding and not the hypothetical? 

 

As far as I can tell, the only modern stadium with fan service for things like acoustics that seems to have resulted in a good atmosphere is Spurs's stadium.

Of course, until there's an actual plan we're all just talking hypotheticals here. The fact that Spurs have done it shows that it can be done. Whether there is the desire to do that from our board I have no idea, but I certainly hope so. 

 

When we talk about staying versus going, we all have to make certain assumptions. My assumption is that in staying we might add an extra 7k or so, maybe more, which obviously is a good thing because it allows more of us to get tickets. I also assume that the increase in commercial revenue from a redevelopment of SJP would be minimal and have little impact on our ability to compete financially with Spurs etc.

 

I make the assumption that if we were to move, it would be a city centre location, that it would generate a substantial increase in revenue, helping us to catch up with the "big six". I assume (or hope) that when they put a design together, there is also consideration for how we can generate & maintain an atmosphere through acoustics, well-designed and positioned safe standing or whatever. Like I said in my discussion with @OpenC I also assume that the addition of all the fancy income-generating stuff doesn't impact my personal experience because I just want to go to the game, be part of a loud, passionate crowd and hopefully see some class players play for Newcastle.

 

Of course, if any of those assumptions are wrong on either side then I'd have to change my opinion, but that's what I'm basing it on.

[RS]

Remembering the excuses from a lot of the season ticket holders during the Ashley period was “it’s better than shopping with the wife” or “good excuse to meet the lads and have a few pints”. The football is almost secondary to a lot of ST holders hence the shite atmosphere. Nowt to do with acoustics etc. and moving wouldn’t make the tiniest difference barring allowing more plastics in if any element of success was ever allowed by the PL six. 

[OpenC]

Just out of interest, do you think if we built this thing, the pride of the country, that an extra 15-30k punters are ready to come to watch Newcastle @Keegans Export?

 

And do you feel like they would be likely to constitute a loud and passionate crowd?  Do you think there's any chance that we would continually fail to sell out a larger ground and end up having to close bits like Sunderland do, to our frequent great joy?

 

 

Edited March 22 by OpenC

[madras]

17 minutes ago, OpenC said:

Just out of interest, do you think if we built this thing, the pride of the country, that an extra 15-30k punters are ready to come to watch Newcastle @Keegans Export?

 

And do you feel like they would be likely to constitute a loud and passionate crowd?  Do you think there's any chance that we would continually fail to sell out a larger ground and end up having to close bits like Sunderland do, to our frequent great joy?

 

 

 

Depends on whether the red tops allow us to be part of their club.

[Kid Icarus]

35 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

Of course, until there's an actual plan we're all just talking hypotheticals here. The fact that Spurs have done it shows that it can be done. Whether there is the desire to do that from our board I have no idea, but I certainly hope so. 

 

When we talk about staying versus going, we all have to make certain assumptions. My assumption is that in staying we might add an extra 7k or so, maybe more, which obviously is a good thing because it allows more of us to get tickets. I also assume that the increase in commercial revenue from a redevelopment of SJP would be minimal and have little impact on our ability to compete financially with Spurs etc.

 

I make the assumption that if we were to move, it would be a city centre location, that it would generate a substantial increase in revenue, helping us to catch up with the "big six". I assume (or hope) that when they put a design together, there is also consideration for how we can generate & maintain an atmosphere through acoustics, well-designed and positioned safe standing or whatever. Like I said in my discussion with @OpenC I also assume that the addition of all the fancy income-generating stuff doesn't impact my personal experience because I just want to go to the game, be part of a loud, passionate crowd and hopefully see some class players play for Newcastle.

 

Of course, if any of those assumptions are wrong on either side then I'd have to change my opinion, but that's what I'm basing it on.

 

I get what you're saying, the issue is that I think if you were to change your assumption, by that time it would already be too late, because the new stadium would likely be up and SJP gone. I can't imagine there would be a 'tell' along the way that would tip people off that it might not live up to the hype for those who want a new stadium.

 

If all modern stadiums were built like Spurs's has been, I'd still be against a new stadium because I feel like I can't take anymore commercialisation in football, but I'd be less against it than I am. In reality though, I think Spurs's stadium is the outlier at the moment and the likes of the Etihad, Emirates, and others make up most of the evidence of what it could be like, rather than it being purely about hypotheticals and utopian/dystopian.

[OpenC]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Funny thing is that I’m one of those that absolutely hates these elements of modern football, and does get sentimental for ‘piss in the pockets’ football ground experiences.  I miss terracing and the feel of a crumbling old ground.  I miss the days when any working class person to go with their mates and afford to get into the ground, and stand together, and make a racket - and that you could do that from when you were old enough that your mam said you could get the bus to the toon.  

 

But I never found that the current SJP replicated that in any way - it’s just a halfway house between the two.  You don’t get what you used to get - it’s already a completely different (sanitised) experience to what it once was.  The idea that the current SJP is rooted in its community is a mystery to me - it always felt corporate and a bit grim.

 

I don’t at all like the commercialisation of football nor of its stadiums; I don’t like organised fun wank like ‘fan zones’, nor hotdogs to your seat, comfy chairs and directors boxes.  I hate that the sport has been wrenched from its working class roots, and commodified for the middle aged and middle class.  I couldn’t give two shites if SJP hosts Ed Sheeran to play MOR elevator music to tasteless hordes.  But I know that to compete at the highest level, we have to get on that shitty gravy train.   There’s nothing misty-eyed old fuckers like me can do about that now. 

 

I never really had it down as a working class venue; what I liked about St James' Park between 1995ish and 2013ish, and football in general, is precisely that it's an amazing leveller, something that everybody in the community can coalesce around. When I sat in the Gallowgate I could have a judge sat to my left and a burglar to my right and we were all just there as Newcastle fans, lucky enough to have tickets and be sat in the best home end in the country and all of us probably at least shouting if not singing. This is the part of the experience that appealed and appeals to me most, the parochial and insular pride in your own club; feeling part of something with that same interest; turning to a lad you don't know and might never meet again and saying, "did you see that, man".

 

I'm not saying it's impossible for that to happen in a bigger stadium with increased commercial concerns, striving to bring in new punters so they can be sold things, but I am saying it's maybe more likely that you'll turn to the lad next to you and he'll say, "see what? I was busy ordering the family's half time steaks", and no matter how good the team gets on the pitch as a result of them being there, it will dilute the supporter experience. Snobbish and gatekeeping undoubtedly but I also feel the commercialisation of football has changed the game into just something else to be consumed.

 

I hope I'm wrong  I should also point out that I barely go any more and can't imagine I will again any time soon so I don't really have a dog in this fight 

 

 

 

Edited March 22 by OpenC

[Keegans Export]

39 minutes ago, OpenC said:

Just out of interest, do you think if we built this thing, the pride of the country, that an extra 15-30k punters are ready to come to watch Newcastle @Keegans Export?

 

And do you feel like they would be likely to constitute a loud and passionate crowd?  Do you think there's any chance that we would continually fail to sell out a larger ground and end up having to close bits like Sunderland do, to our frequent great joy?

 

 

I think there's potentially another few thousand who'd fit that description who would come now, if there was the capacity. There also seems to be (judging by the thread on here) quite a few who can currently get to games who aren't able to get an atmosphere going because of where they end up sitting. The key is getting them all in the same place and encouraging them to do just that. Obviously we could do that now but there doesn't seem to be the appetite for a battle with large numbers of ST holders. The sweet spot for capacity is probably somewhere in the 60-65k mark for me, for the reason you gave. 

 

16 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

I get what you're saying, the issue is that I think if you were to change your assumption, by that time it would already be too late, because the new stadium would likely be up and SJP gone. I can't imagine there would be a 'tell' along the way that would tip people off that it might not live up to the hype for those who want a new stadium.

 

If all modern stadiums were built like Spurs's has been, I'd still be against a new stadium because I feel like I can't take anymore commercialisation in football, but I'd be less against it than I am. In reality though, I think Spurs's stadium is the outlier at the moment and the likes of the Etihad, Emirates, and others make up most of the evidence of what it could be like, rather than it being purely about hypotheticals and utopian/dystopian.

 

All fair points. I suppose it's a risk either way - do we stay and risk limiting our ability to compete financially with the teams we want to overtake? Do we leave and potentially risk losing something that is intangible but nevertheless a key part of what supporting Newcastle United means to us? I see the latter as less of a risk because football (including NUFC/SJP) has already changed and it's not going back to how it was. We can still generate a bear pit atmosphere (eg PSG) but the days of doing that regularly seem long gone, even in our spiritual home. So what are we really risking?

[Kid Icarus]

Has anyone ever laid out exactly what the difference in match day income would actually be? Is it really that much of a difference in terms of what we'd want it to be used for, ie signing players?

[OpenC]

Bigger stadium, more go karts

?

?

?

Profit

[Keegans Export]

34 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Has anyone ever laid out exactly what the difference in match day income would actually be? Is it really that much of a difference in terms of what we'd want it to be used for, ie signing players?

 

Back to hypotheticals again unfortunately! I have no idea how many seats are in the Barracks or any of the other Hospitality sections for example, but I'm fairly sure they're all sold out for every game between now and the end of the season? So clearly demand is outstripping supply there. The Barracks is about £150-200, so let's say an extra 1,000 hospitality seats at £150 each = £2.8m from 19 league games. If you can add 5,000 "normal" seats, at the low end of £40/seat that's £3.8m (19 league games again). Again, I have no idea how much Corporate Boxes are so I can't even estimate income there but presumably they'd look to add more of those. 

 

The big one is Stadium sponsorship. There's an article here about it, but it explains why re-naming an existing stadium is less valuable to a potential sponsor than a new previously un-named development. Let's say £5m/year.

 

So that's £11.6m, plus any additional Cup and/or European games, plus whatever extra you could get from more Boxes, plus any potential income from all the stuff @OpenC hates...

 

29 minutes ago, OpenC said:

Bigger stadium, more go karts

?

?

?

Profit

...like Go Karts 

[r0cafella]

1 minute ago, Keegans Export said:

 

Back to hypotheticals again unfortunately! I have no idea how many seats are in the Barracks or any of the other Hospitality sections for example, but I'm fairly sure they're all sold out for every game between now and the end of the season? So clearly demand is outstripping supply there. The Barracks is about £150-200, so let's say an extra 1,000 hospitality seats at £150 each = £2.8m from 19 league games. If you can add 5,000 "normal" seats, at the low end of £40/seat that's £3.8m (19 league games again). Again, I have no idea how much Corporate Boxes are so I can't even estimate income there but presumably they'd look to add more of those. 

 

The big one is Stadium sponsorship. There's an article here about it, but it explains why re-naming an existing stadium is less valuable to a potential sponsor than a new previously un-named development. Let's say £5m/year.

 

So that's £11.6m, plus any additional Cup and/or European games, plus whatever extra you could get from more Boxes, plus any potential income from all the stuff @OpenC hates...

 

...like Go Karts 

The stadium sponsorship figure quoted here is massively low as well. Bare in mind Everton were getting 10m per year for the option to name the stadium   

[Jonas]

Just for a bit of research I've looked through a few old fanzines and they're literally having the same discussion in there in 94/95 that we are now re atmosphere.

5 hours ago, Groundhog63 said:

Cathedral on the hill, you say *

 

First time I was shown in there it was like Crocodile Dundee in New York trying to suss out the lav. I couldn't quite believe it. Just felt weird with no roof and, well, no toilet.  That would have been 1989 so not like most public toilets were like the ones on Demolition Man or anything.

Only used the facilities at SJP about four times in about 900 games. See the ability to eat and piss during 2hours at a match as in case of emergency rather than part of the 'experience'.  Same as at the movies or something.

 

[timeEd32]

53 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Has anyone ever laid out exactly what the difference in match day income would actually be? Is it really that much of a difference in terms of what we'd want it to be used for, ie signing players?

 

Similar to @TheBrownBottle I don't actually enjoy much of anything about the modern stadium experience. I have little interest in the amenities for any sport and I hate how expensive the average event is. So when I post about Beyonce and expensive seats it's just through the lens of that potentially being necessary to compete. I think at the end of the day this decision is a fairly simple math problem with two key questions guiding it (I'm also not local, so I'm leaving my meaningless opinion out of it).

 

1) What are the ambitions of the club? From Darren Eales in the FAB meeting minutes:

 

Quote

‘We're going to build a results-driven, world class, sustainable organisation that consistently achieves top six status for men's and women's teams and wins major trophies, within the next five years.’

 

2) How important is staying at SJP? Eales again:

 

Quote

“The priority is to stay at St. James’ Park, but we know there are challenges around development. So we have employed experts to assess what is feasible from an engineering and financial perspective.”

 

So the club's stated aim is to consistently compete with the existing top 6 and, in fact, replace one of them and they understand that can't just be done via overachieving on the pitch. It's based on finances. They have also said many times the priority is to stay at St. James' Park, but there's a caveat in this recent quote.

 

In terms of match day revenue we know there are two tiers in the top 6 (note: not all stadium-based revenue shows up in match day income - much of it beyond ticket sales is in the commercial bucket and Spurs are a great example of how enhancing the stadium unlocked major commercial gains - but this is the cleanest way to look at it).

 

Tier 1

Man United - £136m

Spurs - £117m

Arsenal - £103m

 

Tier 2

Liverpool - £85m (does not include Anfield Road expansion)

Chelsea - £77m

Man City - £72m (does not include North Stand expansion)

 

Newcastle - £38m in 2022/23 (guessing around £45m in current season, inflated by CL)

 

We almost certainly cannot join the Tier 1 group without a new build, but given the preference for staying put if possible I think we'd happily accept joining the Tier 2 group as Liverpool opted to do. So the question is can we essentially double the current match day income while staying at SJP? I think if the answer based on what's feasible and the revenue projections is yes then that's what we'll do, though cost, short term disruption, and timeline will be relevant factors.

 

If the answer is no because of site limitations or other then they will almost certainly have to look at a new stadium. The alternative puts far too much of a ceiling on both match day and commercial revenue to achieve the stated goal.

[Kanji]

On 20/03/2024 at 09:26, Yorkie said:

 

Genuinely always try and get as close to the end as possible for this reason.

there are often times i won’t even drink before a sport event if my seat isn’t by the aisle because i am deathly afraid of having to go get up for a piss multiple times  

[et tu brute]

1 hour ago, timeEd32 said:

They have also said many times the priority is to stay at St. James' Park, but there's a caveat in this recent quote.

I've always thought that yes they would get the tick mark of looking at extending the stadium (too much money for limited improvement and a large number of current ticket holders affected during building work/loss of revenue), but ultimately go with a brand new state of the art stadium within the city centre. No brainer to me. 

[Karjala]

8 hours ago, Keegans Export said:

 

I make the assumption that if we were to move, it would be a city centre location, that it would generate a substantial increase in revenue, helping us to catch up with the "big six". 

How much are each of the big 6 making?

 

New top class stadium's:

Arsenal - 61,000

Spurs - 62,000

Expanded old stadiums:

Liverpool 61,000

Man city - 55,000 

Man U - 75,000

Old small stadiums:

Chelsea - 40,000.

 

Is the current 52,000 stadium expanded to 65,000 not capable of competing with them?

Other than West Ham, the next current closest to us is Villa (42k).

[OverThere]

23 minutes ago, Karjala said:

How much are each of the big 6 making?

 

New top class stadium's:

Arsenal - 61,000

Spurs - 62,000

Expanded old stadiums:

Liverpool 61,000

Man city - 55,000 

Man U - 75,000

Old small stadiums:

Chelsea - 40,000.

 

Is the current 52,000 stadium expanded to 65,000 not capable of competing with them?

Other than West Ham, the next current closest to us is Villa (42k).

Well Man C isn't an expanded old stadium it is new and Man U want a new stadium so that leaves Liverpool on the list.

 

The issue isn't just the capacity it is the fact that St James has barely any amenities inside for revenue generation, and I don't believe those could be retrofitted.

[Keegans Export]

23 minutes ago, Karjala said:

How much are each of the big 6 making?

 

New top class stadium's:

Arsenal - 61,000

Spurs - 62,000

Expanded old stadiums:

Liverpool 61,000

Man city - 55,000 

Man U - 75,000

Old small stadiums:

Chelsea - 40,000.

 

Is the current 52,000 stadium expanded to 65,000 not capable of competing with them?

Other than West Ham, the next current closest to us is Villa (42k).

Well judging by the figures @timeEd32 posted above, we've currently got about a 15% lower capacity than Spurs (52k versus 62k) but we're taking in 60% less matchday revenue (£40m versus £120m) so that suggests that just bridging the capacity gap isn't enough on its own.

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

There’s an awful lot of presumption that all the new attendees would be plastics, rather than the next generations of kids who are currently locked out of watching at St James'. There are lots of people of my generation who were effectively locked out of the stadium bar the odd cup or European game under Keegan. I’d really rather that the same situation didn’t occur again as young fans are the lifeblood of the club and often of developing atmosphere 

[TheBrownBottle]

2 hours ago, Karjala said:

How much are each of the big 6 making?

 

New top class stadium's:

Arsenal - 61,000

Spurs - 62,000

Expanded old stadiums:

Liverpool 61,000

Man city - 55,000 

Man U - 75,000

Old small stadiums:

Chelsea - 40,000.

 

Is the current 52,000 stadium expanded to 65,000 not capable of competing with them?

Other than West Ham, the next current closest to us is Villa (42k).

Adding 13,000 cheap seats (not sure where you’re fitting those btw) isn’t going to come close.  Even allowing for an average of £500/ST (which is unlikely) you’re only looking at £6.5m in additional revenue (not allowing for cup games).  So no, it’s not about capacity (or only about capacity).  Stay at SJP and we’re looking to make up c.£50m shortfall vs our rivals in the future. 

[NEEJ]

13 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Funny thing is that I’m one of those that absolutely hates these elements of modern football, and does get sentimental for ‘piss in the pockets’ football ground experiences.  I miss terracing and the feel of a crumbling old ground.  I miss the days when any working class person to go with their mates and afford to get into the ground, and stand together, and make a racket - and that you could do that from when you were old enough that your mam said you could get the bus to the toon.  

 

But I never found that the current SJP replicated that in any way - it’s just a halfway house between the two.  You don’t get what you used to get - it’s already a completely different (sanitised) experience to what it once was.  The idea that the current SJP is rooted in its community is a mystery to me - it always felt corporate and a bit grim.

 

I don’t at all like the commercialisation of football nor of its stadiums; I don’t like organised fun wank like ‘fan zones’, nor hotdogs to your seat, comfy chairs and directors boxes.  I hate that the sport has been wrenched from its working class roots, and commodified for the middle aged and middle class.  I couldn’t give two shites if SJP hosts Ed Sheeran to play MOR elevator music to tasteless hordes.  But I know that to compete at the highest level, we have to get on that shitty gravy train.   There’s nothing misty-eyed old fuckers like me can do about that now. 

No offence meant in the slightest here, but am I right in thinking you're now abroad? If so, when were you last at SJP for a match? 

[TomYam]

14 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Funny thing is that I’m one of those that absolutely hates these elements of modern football, and does get sentimental for ‘piss in the pockets’ football ground experiences.  I miss terracing and the feel of a crumbling old ground.  I miss the days when any working class person to go with their mates and afford to get into the ground, and stand together, and make a racket - and that you could do that from when you were old enough that your mam said you could get the bus to the toon.  

 

But I never found that the current SJP replicated that in any way - it’s just a halfway house between the two.  You don’t get what you used to get - it’s already a completely different (sanitised) experience to what it once was.  The idea that the current SJP is rooted in its community is a mystery to me - it always felt corporate and a bit grim.

 

I don’t at all like the commercialisation of football nor of its stadiums; I don’t like organised fun wank like ‘fan zones’, nor hotdogs to your seat, comfy chairs and directors boxes.  I hate that the sport has been wrenched from its working class roots, and commodified for the middle aged and middle class.  I couldn’t give two shites if SJP hosts Ed Sheeran to play MOR elevator music to tasteless hordes.  But I know that to compete at the highest level, we have to get on that shitty gravy train.   There’s nothing misty-eyed old fuckers like me can do about that now. 

Much how I feel.

[TheBrownBottle]

8 hours ago, NEEJ said:

No offence meant in the slightest here, but am I right in thinking you're now abroad? If so, when were you last at SJP for a match? 

None taken.  I am, last time was in 2022.  Was a ST holder 1991-2009.  Refused to go back under Ashley.

 

Honestly, I’ve no issue if you don’t think I should have a say in moving from SJP or not.  Newcastle is my place of birth and where I’ve spent 85% of my life so far - but I’m not there now, and I’m comfortable with the notion that it’s the locals who should have a say.  I’m not one now. 

[Vedder]

12 hours ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

There’s an awful lot of presumption that all the new attendees would be plastics, rather than the next generations of kids who are currently locked out of watching at St James'. There are lots of people of my generation who were effectively locked out of the stadium bar the odd cup or European game under Keegan. I’d really rather that the same situation didn’t occur again as young fans are the lifeblood of the club and often of developing atmosphere 

Agree 100%. Plus all the people who quit during Ashley’s reign are now locked out as members. Although a know a few who’ve moved on from football altogether now. 
 

I also think generally more people want to watch football now. West Ham get approx 60k every week, I think we should be able to do 65-70k if tickets were priced right for the region.