Defensive midfielders

[Shak]

Good post Rich, fully agree.

 

A big, powerhouse like Diarra in center midfield is something I fully expect we'll be after this summer. I'd say it's a cert we'll be playing 3 in center midfield come the start of the season, and a Diarra - Emre - Barton combination is something I think could give us the balance we've been lacking for years.

 

Emre has been very inconsistent in his time here, don't think anyone can argue that. His real problem is that he doesn't really fit into a regular 4-4-2 formation, or 2 man CM midfield combination of any kind. As a holding player, he's too prone to switching off at times, which you can't have from your DM. While he's willing to get himself about and is a fiery little fella by all accounts, he doesn't really win the ball a lot or protect the defense outstandingly. So he's not cut out for the holding roll.

 

In his first season here, he played primarily alongside Parker, with Parker in the holding roll. While he is very technically sound on the ball, he didn't get into advanced positions on a regular enough basis to cause worry for the opposition defenses. You need one of your midfielders to get beyond the strikers on a regular enough basis and score goals from the middle of the park, and Emre doesn't and I don't think he ever will.

 

So while he doesn't seem to fit in there, he's a great fit for a 3-man midfield. With an imposing DM to protect the back 4, and Barton a box-to-box to player who will get into dangerous positions and hopefully contribute goals from the middle, Emre will be the link man, or deep lying playmaker. His job will be to be the main distributor of play from the middle, constantly available to recieve the ball and find a team-mate, which is crucial in retaining possesion. Pirlo does it for Milan, Xavi for Barcelona, and Carrick will be likely be able to step into that role for Man U now that thye have a more natural ball-winner in Hargreaves.

 

Think Emre has the qualities to do it, even though some will say (and rightfully) that he has been very wasteful with possesion at times for us. With a more suitable role in the team, combined with a center forward like Viduka who he can play the ball into feet to, full-backs who he's comfortable exchanging possesion with knowing they're not likely to panic at any moment and hoof the ball aimlessly forward, a solid holding midfielder behind him, and runners from deep like Barton, Milner, possibly N'Zogbia or whoever else we end up with in midfield with, I think we'll see Emre flourish next year.

[Yorkie]

He's been on holiday.

 

...And because when you do make a post, you'll get some job knockey picking one line out of it and taking about three hours of your life because you simply cannot face being proven wrong after such effort in the first place

 

Drives me mad that like. You write a great long post and one line gets picked out.

 

Anyhow, top post that initial one, Rich.

[Rich]

My Mam is already on her way jmc, don't worry about it.

 

...Err... this thread was about defensive midfielders, wasn't it?

 

I'm going to be typically boring and say I'll be happy with whatever Allardyce brings in as he's yet to have the chance to make me doubt him, but I still hope we add a "proper" defensive midfielder to the squad who is more powerful than anything else. Obviously we're not going to sign a Vieira and I wouldn't be overly keen on getting some unproven youngster and hoying him in there, but players like Appiah, Diarra and even Bouba Diop would probably be very, very good if used the right way and in the right circumstances. If they can compete in the air and pass a ball to an acceptable standard (I will not be happy with Amady Faye mk II) then they'll be an asset here.

 

Despite my dislike for him, I couldn't be too unhappy if Butt was allowed to be the main man there next season though because at times last season he was absolutely outstanding. He's still too slow, small and old for me to be fully convinced about him, like, and his short-range passing is utterly rubbish. We still "need" another defensive midfielder at some point in the near future though, even if Rozenhal does come. Two players "competing" for every position is ambitious, especially in a season where we'll only have about 40-45 games (and that's being optimistic cup wise!) but it's definitely what we should be aiming to have if the money is there for it.

 

However, if we're being sensible, the notion of Rozenhal being cover for Butt at times is a good one and it's hard to disagree with. It might be too soon to expect to have direct competition from 22 capable players in every position on the park.

[nufcjmc]

It is a little and large combination that I think we really need, totally agree that in the middle of the park we need a strong big guy look at arsenal a few seasons ago all, nimble quick very good at passing the ball and the drive the power and the support all fell to viera. Now with him gone they have obviously suffered hence the reason we managed to play so well against them last two seasons down to bullying the ball and taking the flowing passing game away from them.

 

Where we are at now we have emre, who although strong doesnt seem to have any ability to hold up a ball or drive through the middle, butt again quite similar. I feel I could blow dyer over personally. Then obviously the height issue milner's crosses although have not been the best sometimes I wish we had a "big man" to aim for and while we hope viduka will give him a big enough target to aim for we cant always play him.

 

difficulty obviously is while we are concentrating on defence I dont know if we are going to target people all over the park but I'm sure SA has already thought about this, I mean he has managed to out think us on numerous occasions so knows all about our weaknesses.

[Yorkie]

Emre has been very inconsistent in his time here, don't think anyone can argue that.

 

He's been consistently inconsistent.

 

Nah, seriously, another top post there. You've hit the nail on the head in regards to Emre, and that centre-midfield combo is EXACTLY how i see it aswell, and i'd wager that is what Sam is looking for n'all. Still reckon he'd have Butt in there as an automatic starter, though. He's an Allardyce player. Experienced - with a good shout on him and he knows that role down to the ground. Doesn't mean to say we won't go for 'a Diarra', i just reckon that Butt will be in there.

 

As Captain n'all. If he's going to start Butt, he should be Captain, but that's another matter.

 

Anyhow aye, that centre-mid is probably spot on if we do go with 4-3-3/4-5-1.

 

Butt - Protecting the defense and winning the ball. Distributing the ball from deep when possible.

 

Emre - Fiery playmaker from deep, supplying the centre-forward. Little bastard in the middle of the park; providing he sorts out his consistency issues.

 

Barton - Box-to-box creative player, and hopefully goalscorer, helping the forwards wherever possible.

 

Anyhow, i'm basically just repeating what you're saying. You and Rich have got it bang on though, Rich regarding the defensive mid (even though i reckon Butt will still start) and Shak on Emre.

 

Class posters, tbh.

[nufcjmc]

My Mam is already on her way jmc, don't worry about it.

 

...Err... this thread was about defensive midfielders, wasn't it?

 

I'm going to be typically boring and say I'll be happy with whatever Allardyce brings in as he's yet to have the chance to make me doubt him, but I still hope we add a "proper" defensive midfielder to the squad who is more powerful than anything else. Obviously we're not going to sign a Vieira and I wouldn't be overly keen on getting some unproven youngster and hoying him in there, but players like Appiah, Diarra and even Bouba Diop would probably be very, very good if used the right way and in the right circumstances. If they can compete in the air and pass a ball to an acceptable standard (I will not be happy with Amady Faye mk II) then they'll be an asset here.

 

Despite my dislike for him, I couldn't be too unhappy if Butt was allowed to be the main man there next season though because at times last season he was absolutely outstanding. He's still too slow, small and old for me to be fully convinced about him, like, and his short-range passing is utterly rubbish. We still "need" another defensive midfielder at some point in the near future though, even if Rozenhal does come. Two players "competing" for every position is ambitious, especially in a season where we'll only have about 40-45 games (and that's being optimistic cup wise!) but it's definitely what we should be aiming to have if the money is there for it.

 

However, if we're being sensible, the notion of Rozenhal being cover for Butt at times is a good one and it's hard to disagree with. It might be too soon to expect to have direct competition from 22 capable players in every position on the park.

 

I still keep going back to african players for some reason and the fact he likes to buy "unknowns" now if some 6'4 muscel bound hulk came in while we probably will all be worrying who the fuck he is and is he any good you can sort of see where he is going. Really think one of the big reasons Parker left was because he has a plan for midfield and we will see a player come in the middle or maybe Im clutching at straws

[Yorkie]

And btw, Diop wouldn't be a bad option. He's finished at Fulham, surely? Well - if Coleman was still there than that'd be a yes. Might be worth a punt on the cheap if we want someone 'proven'. He just needs someone to give him a kick up the arse tbh, he looked class a couple of seasons ago.

[Rich]

He's been on holiday.

 

...And because when you do make a post, you'll get some job knockey picking one line out of it and taking about three hours of your life because you simply cannot face being proven wrong after such effort in the first place

 

Drives me mad that like. You write a great long post and one line gets picked out.

 

Anyhow, top post that initial one, Rich.

 

It's the best way to wind someone up, like

 

On a different score, I've seen you mention the 4-3-3 formation and I've now seen Shak allude to it, while when I was away I read papers claiming we'd play 4-4-2, 3-5-2 (which really excited me and made Papa Lazaru weep, I'm sure), 4-5-1 as well. Then there was Allardyce saying he wants "two players for every position" in regards to the forwards, which made me think that we'd be playing two up top.

 

Has this debate been done elsewhere while I've been away? Because if it has I'd happily take it to the appropriate thread as it's something I fancy discussing.

 

It's undoutable to me that a midfield three of Butt, Emre and Barton would be exciting (whereas Diarra, Emre and Barton would be jizz-worthy), but where do Martins, Owen, Viduka and Milner fit in to that? Four players, who if they stay should by rights be starters. Then there's a massive earner like Dyer to take into account who will seemingly be out in the cold.

 

It's interesting to note the proposed formation when we're talking defensive midfielders though, because there's a huge difference between playing the Makelele role and playing the Roy Keane role - although there are, of course, players capable of doing both. Is it all just speculation at the minute 4-3-3 wise? I just can't fathom how he'll work it with Owen and Martins here.

[Yorkie]

Look a page back, Jan. There'll be a poll on what formation we should play... Think Rodhaminho started it but that could be wrong.

[nufcjmc]

He's been on holiday.

 

...And because when you do make a post, you'll get some job knockey picking one line out of it and taking about three hours of your life because you simply cannot face being proven wrong after such effort in the first place

 

Drives me mad that like. You write a great long post and one line gets picked out.

 

Anyhow, top post that initial one, Rich.

 

It's the best way to wind someone up, like

 

On a different score, I've seen you mention the 4-3-3 formation and I've now seen Shak allude to it, while when I was away I read papers claiming we'd play 4-4-2, 3-5-2 (which really excited me and made Papa Lazaru turn in his grave, I'm sure), 4-5-1 as well. Then there was Allardyce saying he wants "two players for every position" in regards to the forwards, which made me think that we'd be playing two up top.

 

Has this debate been done elsewhere while I've been away? Because if it has I'd happily take it to the appropriate thread as it's something I fancy discussing.

 

It's undoutable to me that a midfield three of Butt, Emre and Barton would be exciting (whereas Diarra, Emre and Barton would be jizz-worthy), but where do Martins, Owen, Viduka and Milner fit in to that? Four players, who if they stay should by rights be starters. Then there's a massive earner like Dyer to take into account who will seemingly be out in the cold.

 

It's interesting to note the proposed formation when we're talking defensive midfielders though, because there's a huge difference between playing the Makelele role and playing the Roy Keane role - although there are, of course, players capable of doing both. Is it all just speculation at the minute 4-3-3 wise? I just can't fathom how he'll work it with Owen and Martins here.

 

all of which I have thought about too the one thing I have thought about is SA looking at converting to martins to more of a deeper roll out of one of the flanks in a 3 up front formation we know he can use both feet comfortably so possibly this is where he fits in and either owen or viduka playing well ahead as the box player. Obviously the key here the team already seems alot more adaptable than when roedant and souy were here.(i know we did try other stuff from 4-4-2) but always seemed to fall flat on its face.

[Yorkie]

And, if i were to bet on which of those four were to be dropped (Martins/Owen/Viduka/Milner), i'd say that Oba would be the obvious choice for Sam. While Martins blows hot and cold, Owen's top class - Milner's ace - and he's not going to not play Viduka.

 

Milner ----------------------------------- Owen

--------------------- Viduka --------------------

 

Is how i'd see it, if they all stay here. Although, Martins would probably be better in the Owen position. The truth is, we just don't know. I hope he does go 4-5-1, though. Time for summat different and Sam's proved that he can make it work.

 

Like i say, we just don't know. Exciting as fook.

 

EDIT: In regards to Dyer, the good thing is, he can play in several positions there, and there is bound to be rotation/injuries. It's not as if Dyer wouldn't play.

[Shak]

Class posters, tbh.

 

Indeed, we've also slept together.

 

I'd not be mortified if we had Butt in there at the start of the season, because he's quite solid and we know we can depend on getting a solid performance out of him more often than not. But he's never really been top class, and his best days are behind him at that, so I would hope we're looking at bringing in someone better. It would complete our midfield and I'd be very surprised at Allardyce going into the season with 3 relatively short fellas in CM, so hopefully it will transpire.

 

Barton's not afraid to get stuck in by any mean either, can't imagine we'd get bullied in the middle of the park nearly as much anymore with those 3. Barton and Emre, like two annoying little fuckers going around putting themselves about and winding people up, with a big fuck-off powerhouse alongside them to back them up when they punch above their weight, lovely. 

[Yorkie]

Insane the amount of potential our squad has, innit.

[Guest mishka17]

Alexy Smertin  cheap, decent, perfect for back up

[nufcjmc]

Insane the amount of potential our squad has, innit.

 

potential and just sheer multiple options, so many variations and so many different ways of playing no more "bramble knocks it up the field to open space" or "cross comes into the box ooh and I guess they must think shearer is still playing for us as there is no one there"

[Yorkie]

Danny Murphy tbh.

[Rich]

3-5-2 would be my pick, like, if we're going with what we've got and if we're that intent on change. Not sure if it could ever be made to work effectively in the Premiership or with our particular players, but it'd be interesting at the very least. I suppose a lot hinges on whether Martins and Owen are wanted here/want to stay, I cannot see either being as effective in a "Diouf" role as they would be up front alongside Viduka (who might get injured anyway).

 

As you say, it's nice to be able to wonder though, rather than just know exactly what the team/formation is going to be as we did for much of last season.

 

The way Shak describes things is exactly how I see it, like, and I think it would work fantastically well, especially when you consider that there's Dyer, Butt, Milner and N'Zogbia capable of acting as "cover" for the proposed three, depending on what he does with the "Dyer as a wingback/fullback" scenario that he and McLaren seem to be brewing and whether N'Zogbia will even be here. If the four strikers stay and we do sign this mammoth midfielder, then I'd consider us fairly well sorted out in the front areas, leaving the minor factor of either signing a whole new back-four or moving N'Zogbia/Dyer to be wingbacks and getting in a few centre-halves for this newfangled 3-5-2 disaster-in-waiting that is now making me grin.

 

None of us know what will happen like and things will probably turn out completely differently to what we expect, but it's fairly fun to speculate with some optimism again.

[Yorkie]

Rather he stuck to what he knew, tbh.

 

I think Martins would work as the 'Diouf' actually. Doubt Owen would.

 

Said this earlier - i keep saying i want to keep Owen, but we really should just flog him.

[Yorkie]

As you say, it's nice to be able to wonder though, rather than just know exactly what the team/formation is going to be as we did for much of last season.

 

Tbf, no one had a fucking clue what Roeder was gonna do next.

[Shak]

He's been on holiday.

 

...And because when you do make a post, you'll get some job knockey picking one line out of it and taking about three hours of your life because you simply cannot face being proven wrong after such effort in the first place

 

Drives me mad that like. You write a great long post and one line gets picked out.

 

Anyhow, top post that initial one, Rich.

 

It's the best way to wind someone up, like

 

On a different score, I've seen you mention the 4-3-3 formation and I've now seen Shak allude to it, while when I was away I read papers claiming we'd play 4-4-2, 3-5-2 (which really excited me and made Papa Lazaru weep, I'm sure), 4-5-1 as well. Then there was Allardyce saying he wants "two players for every position" in regards to the forwards, which made me think that we'd be playing two up top.

 

Has this debate been done elsewhere while I've been away? Because if it has I'd happily take it to the appropriate thread as it's something I fancy discussing.

 

It's undoutable to me that a midfield three of Butt, Emre and Barton would be exciting (whereas Diarra, Emre and Barton would be jizz-worthy), but where do Martins, Owen, Viduka and Milner fit in to that? Four players, who if they stay should by rights be starters. Then there's a massive earner like Dyer to take into account who will seemingly be out in the cold.

 

It's interesting to note the proposed formation when we're talking defensive midfielders though, because there's a huge difference between playing the Makelele role and playing the Roy Keane role - although there are, of course, players capable of doing both. Is it all just speculation at the minute 4-3-3 wise? I just can't fathom how he'll work it with Owen and Martins here.

 

Much depends on whether Owen stays, I reckon.

 

If he stays then your typical 4-3-3 formation isn't going to work, as Owen won't be a target man and is wasted out wide. If he stays we'll likely see some sort of 4-4-2, with Owen playing off Viduka. Don't know where that'll leave the midfield, and it's why I personally am hoping Owen leaves. For, while he's our best  player individually, I'd prefer us to build a more balanced team.

 

Of our other players, I think Martins would be very useful as a wide-man in a 4-3-3, so no problem there. Milner could play either side of the attack, or even as the most offensive minded of our 3 CM's, so he'd be great to have. N'Zogbia, if he stays, could play down the left or through the middle (though I'd prefer to see him out wide). Dyer and Duff are both suited to it too.

 

Only Owen doesn't really have much future in that system and, as I believe it's only a matter of time before he leaves anyway, we should get rid now. I even wrote a big article on the main page about it and all. 

[Guest graemeh72]

 

Drives me mad that like. You write a great long post and one line gets picked out.

 

 

Its easy thats why .....

[Yorkie]

Aye, that's pretty much my thoughts, Shak. It'd be a shame to see him leave as he is the best individually, but whether he's best for the team is another matter.

 

Should really read your article. 

[Shak]

Furthermore, if we do sell Owen I'll be hoping we get someone in to compete with Viduka for the spot as center-forward.

 

Much depends on the money situation, I suppose. If Sam isn't gonna have big funds to work with I suppose we can get by with Shola as Viduka's back-up (I like to believe that as I typed that a beeper went off in Northen Monkey's pocket, causing him to leap up instantly and dart to his computer which is already displaying this post) while we spend our funds on new full-backs, a CB and the aforementioned Diarra type player.

 

However, if Sam has significant funds to go out and get a really top class player, a center-forward would be high on my list then. No point unless it's gonna be a significant upgrade on The Duke though.

 

Torres would be absolutely unbelievably ideal.

[Yorkie]

I suppose we can get by with Shola as Viduka's back-up (I like to believe that as I typed that a beeper went off in Northen Monkey's pocket, causing him to leap up instantly and dart to his computer which is already displaying this post)

 

 

Nowt wrong with Shola as competition tbh. If you expect more than that, then you're asking for too much.

[Wullie]

3-5-2 sounds a nice idea with the players we have or potentially could have, but it never seems to work out that way.

 

I believe Allardyce has used it before at Notts County with some success, I'm a 4-4-2 man myself though.