ohmelads

I don't see us getting much money for Owen. Doesn't his release clause stand at £6M next summer, if we fail to make Europe? That's probably about his value if we're honest, given he'll walk for free in a little over 18 months time. He won't sign a new contract, his time here has been a nightmare for both the club and the player and he must know Allardyce's tactics aren't suiting him one bit. So far he has failed to show potential suitors that he is still the player he once was or that he can stay injury free for any period of time, and everybody knows he'll be free if they wait. Our only way of getting a good fee for him might be if one of the bigger clubs picks up a serious injury in January and decide to turn to Owen, whereby we can add a bit to his pricetag because of the urgency of their situation. Barring something like that, we'll be lucky to get anything over £6M next summer IMO. The quicker we can chalk this off as one massive mistake and deeply unfortunate transfer the better, he may be one of the best finishers around but how many points a season does that translate to when he's constantly injured? We won't get someone as naturally gifted but we might get someone who is injury-free and does a decent enough job for the team all-year round such as Martins, and that type of player will generate far more points over the course of a season.

Don't really see your logic there. Does that mean world war two should never be mentioned or given reference to in anything other than WWII films? What about 9/11? It seems a bit of a strange line for the scriptwriters to come up with on a London-based soap, but we should remember that they make references to real tragic events all the time in fictional programmes and films.

We all knew this friendly was a mad idea, although I suppose the FA will look at the money they pocketed from it.

The stuff about Hillsbrough is often justified. Mind you this one's a bit soft. It's a fictional soap, they're the views and the lines of a fictional character.

It is a shame, as Top Toon says Martins would have fancied running at him all afternoon. I like Agger as a centre half, mainly because he looks like a total radgie. Was gonna say the same thing, but I don't think Martins will start regardless. The focus will be on Owen against his old club, but we're going to struggle to get any sort of rhythm in this game, we're playing awful football and giving away large amounts of possession against sides like Reading and sunderland. Liverpool will fancy their chances, and you can be sure Benitez will tell them to starve us of possession, frustrate our players and frustrate the home crowd. Anticipating that, I'd prefer Martins over Owen. He can conjure goals out of nothing, his goal against Man City was superb and his goal against Spurs broke the deadlock in a tight, nervous first half. Those goals came out of nothing when the service was terrible and Owen wouldn't have been able to work those balls. I also think, as good as Carragher is, he doesn't like unpredictable forwards like Martins who are both quick and strong and we might get something there. You know what'll happen though. A pedestrian front line of Viduka and Owen will start, Liverpool will starve us of possession and those two will come deeper and deeper looking for the ball, rendering them totally ineffective. I really hope I'm wrong, but I don't see Viduka or Owen being dropped or Liverpool playing any other way. Start our only fit full backs, our only fit wingers and put Martins up front and we'll at least give Liverpool something to think about. If we set ourselves up only to contain Liverpool, they will win. We can play for the dignified 1-0, 2-0 defeat or we can set our stall out to try and win the game. We're at home, let's see some balls from Sam and a positive approach.

Agree with all of that Dr S, espescially about the manager putting thought into picking a team that works together, rather than eleven individuals who he (or the national press) thinks look good at club level. I think the talk about foreigners in our game and grassroots training are just lazy excuses. 3 of the "big four" have English players forming the nucleus of their teams, while the biggest teams outside the top 4 (Everton, Blackburn, Tottenham, Newcastle, Villa, Man City etc) have plenty of English players. As for the grassroots training argument, it's a ridiculous one to be honest. It's naive to expect the English to start playing like Brazilians or Italians, or to assume that there is any formula for success. The Brazilians traditionally play the most open football in the world, the Italians perhaps the most cautious football in the world. That's the way football is in those countries. They've won more world cups than anybody and they've done it in totally different ways. There is no set formula for success. English teams will groom their kids to play in the English league. Of course that means they will train them to handle the speed and physicality of their own league, do you honestly expect Newcastle to train its youngsters for tiqui-taca against the Spanish or catenaccio against the Italians? Any Premier League club will train its young players to handle the Premier League, it's not rocket science. Another excuse trotted out is that not enough of our players are plying their trade abroad, but it's never harmed the Italians.

Looks like Agger will be fit to play. Real shame that, Hyypia looks a bit over the hill these days.

Well said. It's rare to see someone maintain such humility in the face of such adulation and respect from just about everyone, he's as genuine as they come and the fact he's beaten cancer 5 times and still wants to get out there and do his job shows his passion for football. The guy's an inspiration.

What??! He spent longer managing Newcastle than any other club in his career apart from Ipswich, where he made his name as a manager and is loved by the fans (they have a statue of him outside their ground). Are you begrudging him his loyalty to their club? He said in his book he didn't join Newcastle as a player because they didn't make enough effort to sign him while Fulham did. Any young player who wants to make a career for himself and wants to play regularly wants to know he will be appreciated and will get games. Shearer had to go to Southampton to get recognised, it says more about our club's failings than it does about the players we've lost down the years. You don't "recall" him "expressing a desire" to manage us in "his peak". You're making yourself sound like a jealous housewife. He managed England during the 80's and worked for several European clubs in the 90s, including Barcelona, all of which probably gave him a much better understanding of the game, as well as a chance to cut his teeth at a higher level and manage some of the best players in the world. He came to us with a wealth of experience. When do you think was his peak exactly? And what evidence do you have that he turned us down? He came to Newcastle and got us right up close to Man Utd and Arsenal, gave us some of the best memories of recent times and when you look at the managers immediately before and after him and judge him in context, he did a hell of a job here, turning the club around. You seem to be trying to pick faults without anything concrete to back up what you're saying.

Absolute legend.

What are the options for the club and Ashley? What is the alternative scenario? Decision making is the hardest game going, thats why they give the responsibility to CEOs. Yes, its only been 12 games and if you had a plan to build success at a club how long would you give yourself? A season? And why would you give yourself that? I agree we should discuss it and question his methods and i also agree with a lot of what you have said. Doesnt mean we should forget how well we played against Everton etc. There is capability in the team and their is also capability in the manager, as evidenced by his previous job. Dont over estimate the capibilities of the players though, they are as s**** as they look Certainly, if I knew the definitive answers to those questions I'd be laughing all the way to the bank. I think Allardyce has probably underestimated the job he has taken on. We're not lightyears behind Portsmouth, but Allardyce inherited a squad of players totally unsuited to his football and needs to either change his system or get rid of them. Something has to give. Judging by his "I'm my own man" personality I don't think he will change, I think he'll need enough time and money to overhaul the entire squad. That's a big ask when results are going against you. If we continue like this I don't see him getting beyond the summer, regardless of what Mort might say now. The hope is that the team will gel and results and performances will pick up, but if he's changing the spine of the team every week it's hard to see how that'll happen. This isn't the time for experimentation, 12 games doesn't sound like a lot but it's a third of a season. If the worst happens in the next three games then there'll be a lot of chin-stroking going on at boardroom level, that's for sure. The point you make about alternatives may well be the deciding factor in what happens in the summer. Ashley can't like what he's seeing at the moment and the fans certainly aren't impressed. Allardyce needs to think shorter term, get the current players playing, if he does that he'll buy himself the time to make his changes. He talked about this in the summer but I think he's taken his eye off the ball since then.

How else can you discuss the future of the team without discussing the rights and wrongs of the guy in charge, and dare I even say it, discuss his position at the club? We're just getting to know the guy's management style from a first-hand perspective, of course we're gonna discuss his methods and whether or not he'll take us in the right direction. People talk about these things a lot in this region because the passion for the game here is massive, everyone wants the same thing for the club but we have different ideas of how to get it. For many people Sam isn't the answer. I'd have thought an open public forum discussing all things Newcastle United would inevitably come to talk about the future of the man in charge of first team affairs. There's only so much you can say about James Milner's crossing or Joey Barton's temper, this is an issue people can get their teeth into. It's pointless trying to shout people down going "12 games man! TWELVE GAMES!". Let people discuss his future, in time they might very well be right. They only want what's best for the club.

I agree. Dunno like. http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5496/liamtc1.png http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/35932000/jpg/_35932146_dabgoal300.jpg Mebbes you have a point

I agree.

Allardyce is like a kid in a sweet shop with his team selections at the moment, the last thing we need are more players to confuse him, espescially crap ones. Just play Beye and Enrique every week for f*ck sake, it's not difficult.

How many of that 27% already thought he wasn't 'the man' before any games were played? You make it sound like they all changed their mind after 12 games, but I reckon most of them didn't want him in the first place, or were at least sceptical over his ability to take on a totally different challenge. Suggesting people are fickle or lack faith is common in football but it ignores the point that most people who call for a manager to be sacked usually didn't want him there in the first place. When people called for Souness to be sacked they were labelled fickle, but they were only saying the same stuff they had said from day one, which is totally the opposite to 'fickle', as any dictionary will confirm. It was the same thing when Roeder went. If people thought Sam wasn't the right appointment back in the summer and they still stand by their opinions then there's nothing wrong with that, these people only want what's best for the club and they want to see it left in the best hands possible. I've never liked Allardyce, in fact I couldn't stand him when he was at Bolton, but I tried to be philosophical when he came here. He's a big step up on Roeder and maybe he can adapt to the different challenges that will face him here. Maybe not. I'll certainly give him time, it'd be a disgrace to sack him before next summer unless we are staring at relegation, but I won't back him to the hilt based on some misguided loyalty to a manager. My loyalty lies with the club, always has and always will. People talk about the manager having the reigns as if it's a right, but it's a privilege. You take the job and you earn the respect and even the loyalty of the fans. That's what every top manager has had to do, I don't see why Allardyce should be any different.

I think it's a great idea in principle. Whether it'll work or not is another matter entirely, but as their manager points out, team selection is largely about luck. Managers aren't geniuses. Of course it's important that everyone is pulling in the same direction at a football club, and if a manager doesn't have the power to drop certain players then he loses a lot of his authority, and those are the main drawbacks from a playing perspective. But as a means of potentially giving a small club large financial backing and 'giving football back to the people', I think it's a great idea. I doubt the fans of Ebbsfleet are too bothered, it could put their club on the map.

Why is that? Too much red wine? Not enough spaghetti? I've never been, but everyone I know who's gone to Italy says it's a great place and the people are quite friendly. Are there that many football hoolies there? It's definitely not the safest place for English fans to go, put it that way. Three Middlesbrough fans were stabbed in Rome last year by a group of Italian Ultras carrying knives, one even had an axe. Earlier this year the Italian police beat the crap out of Man Utd's travelling supporters, including old men. It seems to me that it's not a case of Italian police being too weak, but that they're too violent. They clearly don't know how to deal with the hooligan problem over there because it's been going on for years and if anything seems to be getting worse. Prevention is better than cure, but Italian police seem to just go in with the batons and tear gas when things boil over. UEFA have turned a blind eye to it for years. Some photos from the weekend. The Atalanta-Milan game was suspended after just 7 minutes as fans tried to break through the barriers and onto the pitch: http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/77846214.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193C1906FA8287CA61B00AE73D5572B8AE8 http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/77846208.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193C1906FA8287CA61BC27B856CD619188E http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/77845664.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193C1906FA8287CA61BF14F55BE2DE9A6A8A55A1E4F32AD3138 "For Raciti you stopped the league. The death of a supporter doesn't mean anything" Raciti was the cop killed earlier this year during clashes with Catania fans.

It does invite the full back forward, definitely. I remember when we played Spurs last season and Emre was wide left, 'protecting' Huntington. Emre unsurprisingly drifted inside, Chimbonda saw his chance and roamed forward. Hunty was left up against a winger and a full back all on his own time and time again. We got away with it that day because Spurs were so crap in the final third.

The idea is obviously that wingers are generally players who take more chances and give the ball away more often trying to make things happen, while central midfielders usually have better positional sense, don't showboat so much and are often a bit stronger and better in the tackle. So if you're up against someone like C.Ronaldo I can see the logic in someone like Barton or even Emre being preferred to someone like N'Zogbia because they're more likely to curb their creative instincts and stop the opposite number from playing. In theory. It usually doesn't work though from what I've seen. Bowyer was crap on the right for us, Emre has been crap on the left, Smith was crap on the right and Barton was crap on the right. These players usually can't help but drift infield into the positions they've been taking up for years and where they feel more comfortable and that can leave the full back very exposed. If the opposite full back decides to join the party and overlap his winger, your defender can find himself in trouble against two men. That's why having a balanced team is important, and why players should know their positions well. These basic principles seem to have been ditched by Sam in recent times, where he has dropped the only natural wide players and asked central players to try and do a job there instead. As a result, you have a poor team shape, no balance and consequently no rhythm to your play. You don't string passes together, people drift out of position, and even the poorest teams will find gaps and eventually (in the cases of sunderland and Reading), find the back of the net. Most managers don't do it unless they feel a player is adaptable enough or they're forced to because of injuries. Gerrard played quite a lot of games on the right for Liverpool, but he's very adapable. Essien is another example, he's played just about everywhere. I can see why managers are tempted to do it, but it usually disrupts the balance of the team and leaves you blunt on one side. Central midfielders usually don't have the quick footwork to beat a man and they're forced to turn around and pass it back inside or play the early cross from deeper positions, and that's usually easier to defend against because it's much easier to defend what's going on in front of you. It p*sses me off when managers like Sam try to be clever and do it against teams like Derby and sunderland. You won't catch the top sides coming to St James Park and dropping their flair players, their "matchwinners". I bet Reading fans were very pleased to see they were up against no wingers, I know I'd be happier if Man Utd, Arsenal etc came up here and did that.

That's a worthy point about the foreign defenders, but I'm not sure assembling a whole new back four is ever easy, even if they're all English, as Optymystyc Nyt points out. I strongly agree with you about experimenting in Premier League games as if they're friendlies. We only have two fit wingers and two fit full backs, that's been the case all season, and yet the four of them have only started one league game together (when we beat Everton in one of our most convincing performances of the season). The spine of the team changes every week, in central defence, central midfield and attack, and we haven't had many injuries for once either. There's no excuse for it. Parky is right about the need for some attacking quality though. It says a lot about the transfer window that many fans were hoping Barton would come in and give the team some flair and excitement. The longer he was out injured, the more he was being hyped up by fans desperate to see some decent football. In our last three games we have scored courtesy of two own goals and a fluke. We got 1 point out of 9, and it's more than we deserved. We were second best every time, all over the park, and two of those sides will be fighting relegation. There's a bigger picture to our defensive problems though beyond the individuals at the back. It's the inability to keep possession under pressure and a lack of quality on the ball and pace off it to put the other team on the back foot. It's not helped by our lack of width or wingers on the wrong flanks who keep cutting inside. Because we can't get in behind any teams they are quite happy to nudge their defence forward and congest our midfield, who can't handle it. The last time we got in behind a defence repeatedly was when N'Zogbia was in his proper position on the left, he got in behind, set up one goal and scored another. Sam's reaction was to move him to the right, drop him, then put him in defence. Against sunderland Sam dropped his only full backs, against Reading he dropped his only wingers. I think these wacky managerial decisions have largely contributed to the totally disjointed performances, add that to the fact the spine of the team changes every week and you can see why noone has had a chance to gel yet. Quite what Allardyce is up to I don't know, it appears he has used a third of the season to experiment and as you say you can't expect fans to tolerate that. He still doesn't seem to have any idea of his best team yet, so we can probably expect these experiments to continue.

Just seen that

Padding out the squad is all well and good, but there was always a feeling during the summer that we needed a player or two to take us up a level and improve the first team, not just the squad. Look at the way Arteta improves Everton or Elano improves Man City. Quite a few people questioned whether or not we had moved forward or just acquired an abundance of mediocrity. With the departures of Dyer and Solano we lost pace and technique which has not been matched by any of the signings brought in. There was a distinct lack of flair in any of the signings and I think we're paying for that at the moment. It was a good transfer window on a number of levels, but it was more about building a good squad than building a good team. There's still a lot of work to do, it's not going to be easy convincing other clubs to sell their better players in January.

On reflection, and having read the other posts, I'd actually say that there are 4 players who have to start every game at the moment. Not necessarily out of quality, but out of necessity. They are: Enrique, Beye, N'Zogbia and Milner. We only have two fit full backs and two fit wingers and for me they have to start for the good of the balance of the team. If any of those 4 don't start then you're looking at square pegs in round holes, players shuffling positions and that's where the problems tend to start. If those 4 start, you've got a balanced team and will probably have width. Those 4 have only started together twice this season, in the home win over Everton and the away defeat to Arsenal. Until Duff is fit those 4 pick themselves IMO, barring a serious lack of form. Allardyce is trying to keep Emre, Butt, Barton, Smith and Geremi all happy and it seems the width of the team has been sacrificed to accommodate this lot. None of them are wide players.

Doesn't sound like the police have got their cover story straight at all. It doesn't even sound believable.