ohmelads

I don't think you can really set a time-limit on a manager like that, you just have to play it by ear. If we found ourselves tumbling towards relegation we'd have to look at things quickly but generally you look at more than just the results. Under Souness and Roeder you looked at the bigger picture and you thought "where are we going with this guy and why does he deserve more time". Souness started falling out with the team's better players and moving them on to settle personal scores, while Roeder had us flirting with relegation and we only finished 5 points above the drop. Both pointed at a ridiculous injury crisis and while they had a point, there was a lot wrong at the club that they were accountable for. They had to go, in the interests of the club. Sam's managerial CV is more impressive than theirs (I don't care what anyone says about Souness, Blackburn were laughing that we took him off their hands) and for that reason he deserves and will get more benefit of the doubt. I believe most fans do look at the bigger picture, and under the previous two managers the bigger picture looked pretty bleak. I think people will look to see Sam doing a good job, and that's about more than just results on the pitch. As madras said most people have criticised him but have stopped short of saying he should be sacked. Generally speaking Sam has had praise where it is due and criticism where it is due, the majority of people will call a spade a spade. The media will always put words in the mouths of fans and jump to conclusions, and it's obviously going to make Allardyce and Mort feel uneasy, but I think most fans don't mince their words and just tell it like it is. If they wanted him sacked they would say so, and the vast majority have said nothing of the sort.

If we play with width (Zog left, Milner right this time, no messing about) and have a combination of pace and height up front then we'll give ourselves a fighting chance of winning the game. Up front and central midfield are the tricky positions to decide. In midfield I'd go for Geremi and Emre. Barton doesn't look fit and Smith's off the ball antics don't compensate for what little he does on the ball. Butt is suspended. Up front I think most of us agree Viduka should start if he is fit. I think I'd be tempted to drop Owen and play Martins for this one. Away from home where the opposition push their defence a bit higher tends to be where Martins can use his pace and I just fancy him to produce something in this game. Owen wouldn't be a bad shout either though, it's either/or for that position IMO. In defence I'd go for Taylor and Faye. I'm not a fan of changing centre backs all the time but Cacapa had a 'mare on the weekend and both he and Rozehnal might struggle with sunderland's tactics. Taylor and Faye are more familiar with the sort of stuff sunderland will throw at us.

As much as I enjoy their site, it has to be said you do get a lot of that from nufc.com. As Brummie pointed out, Villa fans left in their thousands in response to a hammering from Man Utd. We were hammered by Portsmouth and here we have nufc.com suggesting it is the reason we're not successful. Whose fans should we model ourselves on then? Should we be more like Man Utd fans, Chelsea fans, perhaps we should be like Real Madrid or Barcelona and make the stadium like a library, or even better we could copy Juventus and leave vast sections of the stadium empty altogether? These clubs seem to be successful, maybe we've got it all wrong eh? We're to blame, folks. It's quite a hypocritical piece from .com IMO. Here they are happily adding to the hysteria and hyperbole and I don't see how their comments are designed to galvanise supporters. There are some very valid points in that piece but there's also some condescending bollocks. It is condescending to criticise others but then again when people need to pull their heads out of their arses and think about the situation the club has been in for the last 3 years...... Just because Villa fans are idiots too, doesnt mean .com cant say they think our lot are being stupid too. Absolutely and there are parts of that piece which are valid and perhaps needed saying. But they seem only too happy to add to the hysteria and it reads like a bit of a tantrum. The last line is ridiculous, the most successful clubs have the most impatient and demanding fans going. They were clearly looking for a pithy conclusion to wrap it up but it is bollocks and they know it.

As much as I enjoy their site, it has to be said you do get a lot of that from nufc.com. As Brummie pointed out, Villa fans left in their thousands in response to a hammering from Man Utd. We were hammered by Portsmouth and here we have nufc.com suggesting it is the reason we're not successful. Whose fans should we model ourselves on then? Should we be more like Man Utd fans, Chelsea fans? Perhaps we should be like Real Madrid or Barcelona and make the stadium like a library, or even better we could copy Juventus and leave vast sections of the stadium empty altogether? These clubs seem to be successful, maybe we've got it all wrong eh? We're to blame, folks. It's quite a hypocritical piece from .com IMO. Here they are happily adding to the hysteria and hyperbole and I don't see how their comments are designed to galvanise supporters. There are some very valid points in that piece but there's also some condescending bollocks.

They have a valid point about football fans in general, but it is not a problem specific to Newcastle fans. Football fans keep a club afloat but they don't necessarily make it successful. Old Trafford has been home to the champions more often than not in recent years and their home support is pretty poor to say the least. In fact in many countries the champions have some of the poorest fans, it comes with the territory. Football fans are largely the same everywhere, some clubs' fans just happen to be a lot more frustrated than others and some clubs simply have a lot more to shout about. Newcastle is a club which has come close to success time and time again in recent years, a club with the resources to compete at a higher level and compete for silverware but for one reason or another it hasn't happened. It has got to the point where there is a horrible feeling of inevitability. Souness and Roeder are hardly a hard act to follow, but the fact that either of them could have got us relegated given time is not lost on the fans and it has left many feeling nervous. Allardyce has come in and needs to convince the fans he deserves the time but after the two clowns we've just had in charge it is perhaps understandable that many are sceptical. The overreactions are cringeworthy but they are a small minority of fans. Unfortunately the media (and to an extent nufc.com, ironically) make it sound like a sizeable portion of fans are already calling for his head but this simply isn't true.

Smith seems to be another one of these players who step down to a poorer side and they're exposed for what they are. You can imagine if the likes of O'Shea and Fletcher came here they would look poorer because they'd be under more pressure, bigger fishes in a smaller pond. They'd be in the side every week and expected to pull their finger out, they wouldn't be part of a side which dominates the opposition every week, and would find themselves chasing the ball and played into trouble a lot more often. I never thought he looked anything special at Leeds but he did have some good games for Man Utd and their fans seemed to have some time for him. He's dropped down a level though and more is expected of him here and he just looks decidedly average. It's a shame we paid a decent-sized fee for him because he's bound to be on big wages when he really should just be a handy squad player. The problem is his ego is probably bigger than that, he didn't swap Man Utd's bench just to sit on ours, and if he is picking up big wages he's a drain on resources. When you consider that other players will expect parity then it presents another problem. From what we've seen so far I think he'll prove to be a slightly regrettable signing, but he'll do a job now and again. He does have some ability, he's not just here to make up the numbers like Ramage, but without any defined role in the team he should be considered a utility player.

If we're going to buy a centre half we should be getting someone significantly better than what we have and preferably someone who didn't turn us down to sit on Chelsea's bench just a couple of months ago.

It's a very good question actually but it's difficult to give an honest answer. The game has changed a lot and a great deal of fans aren't really sure what supporting a club really means any more. Traditionally it was about regional pride, a game for the working classes born out of an industrial era, it was a chance for people to rally behind something and the battle lines were clearly drawn. You supported your local team which consisted of mostly local players, and to see them go all the way must have meant a huge sense of regional pride. But, despite the huge crowds, it was also a much more humble game, there weren't TV audiences of millions watching from around the world, nor were there astronomical wages and superstar lifestyles. Players were local heroes, but they were accessible to the fans. In recent decades, and in particular since the inception of the Premier League and Sky Sports coverage, the culture of the game has totally changed. Now we have players from places like Brazil and Senegal who don't even speak English representing the Toon, and footballers are very inaccessible to local fans. Meanwhile there are Newcastle fan clubs springing up in places like South East Asia and an entire industry has developed to try and milk these fans for every penny, cent or whatever. It is quite difficult to lecture people about their loyalties in this day and age because the lines are far from clearly drawn. Some clubs like Chelsea take the p*ss and go overboard, but all they're actually doing is the same as everyone else taken one step further. Vast amounts of money have been injected into their club and they're far from self-sufficient. In fact they were in a bit of a financial mess before a Russian landed his chopper and decided to bail them out. But look at the rest. Liverpool and Man Utd are now owned by Americans, Arsenal swapped their stadium which had been their home for over a century to move into a ground named after their sponsor. And look at some of the big names of English football, clubs like Nottingham Forest and Leeds United, who find themselves in the third tier of English football. What they would give to be back in the top flight. Shak makes a good point about the situation which has developed just in the last few years. We now have a situation where even the richest club which is Chelsea are not able to bully their rivals, there is simply too much money in the game now. As a result, winning the league any which way is still an impressive achievement and, despite all the changes that have taken place in football, I would still feel a huge sense of pride if we became champions of England. I think I could get over how it was done, because there will always be bitter clubs who bang on about the current state of the game. Just look at Notts Forst and Leeds and ask yourself where you'd rather be.

When Allardyce came I wasn't too happy but I tried to be philosophical about it. My hope was that he was a great manager who had been stifled by a limited budget all these years, and only played that type of football because he had to. That was certainly an argument his supporters stuck to, and I hoped they were right. My hope was that at a bigger club he could change to fit a new challenge, but from what I can see he is trying to go down the Bolton route all over again. To make matters worse we are playing a system which stifles our best players. All hope is not lost, we are only a handful of games into his first season. But he'll have to change his football in the meantime otherwise we'll continue to see players like Owen being totally misused and he as a manager will find himself under pressure.

I'd drop him, and I say that as a strong advocate of a settled centre back pairing. His confidence will be affected, it's not often you see a centre back pulled off after 15 minutes. If he plays, the mackems will target him. I'd probably go with Faye and Taylor but I have a feeling Roz will come in. This is such a big game for us and Faye/Taylor won't have the communication issues. You just know it'll be a typical derby game with dirty tackles and quick closing down everywhere, at least these two players have more experience of all that. We should be setting up our team to make them worry about us, but in central defence we will need to cope with those high balls that sunderland will no doubt launch towards our penalty area.

As sad as it is to remember this stat, I do recall the commentators saying when Owen was taken off after an hour at Derby that he had only had 14 touches of the ball! Owen (and Martins) can't be blamed at the moment because when we're playing poorly they are almost left watching the game go by. Martins in particular has found himself dropping deeper and deeper to see any of the ball and as a result finds himself in congested areas of the field where he isn't effective, and then small sections of fans will use that to criticise him. As you say rebel yell, Owen keeps making the runs but the balls are not coming. Defenders prefer it when everything is happening in front of them, we haven't had wide players getting in behind the defence, we haven't had the through balls to find Owen's runs, all we've had are long balls up the middle. Martins will always be more effective than Owen with these because he is stronger, quicker and has a greater leap. His goal against Man City and his goal against Spurs both came from long punts and Owen could not have scored these goals. I agree with those who say the problems are in the midfield and not the defence or up front. When we played Spurs our defence had a good game but the midfield protected them excellently, the service to Spurs' forwards was almost non-existent because we crowded them out of the game. It's true Cacapa had a 'mare yesterday and the defence let us down but that was just one game and the midfield is the main worry for me. Barton is the shiny new player and I get the feeling he's the manager's choice but he's clearly not fully fit yet. Emre and Butt have put in the best midfield display in recent times and are something of a proven partnership, espescially when compared to the alternatives. In our current situation, I think back to basics would be a good call, Zog on the left, Milner on the right, and Butt-Emre in the middle. At least with that you know what you're getting, and so do the players. Butt is suspended now, so I think I'd go with Geremi-Emre against the mackems. Barton is working his way to full fitness and I'm not sure this game would be right for him, he looked a bit of a headless chicken against Portsmouth and the mackem game will get him riled up. Geremi's positional sense and cautious head alongside Emre's more creative passing might give us a good balance to win the middle of the park, or at least it sounds good in theory.

You're right, he needs at least a season, maybe two, before we can properly judge him. I think a lot of people were against his appointment because of certain fears about how he would adapt to handling a bigger club, whether indeed he would adapt or whether he would try and 'do a Bolton' all over again. If he is going down the Bolton route, which I believe he is, then what does it mean for some of our best players? Will he got shot of them and if he does, what does that mean if he doesn't make the grade? After what Souness did here I think there is a real fear of someone overhauling the squad and taking us too far down the wrong path, only to get the boot and leave us back to square one. There is a real danger of that happening and if we are on the wrong path, I think the mentality of some is that they don't want us treading too far, if you get my drift. It is probably too early to tell, but at the same time Allardyce is a very known quantity, you know what you're getting from him in terms of his blueprint for the club and his preferred style of football. I don't particularly want to see us go down the Bolton route, I hated Sam and hated Bolton when he was there. However, I'm willing to accept us becoming that type of outfit if it means we get back up where we want to be in the league. I want Sam to succeed even if I hate his brand of football, but I'm beginning to worry he won't ever get the time here for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he wasn't the new owner's appointment and that makes it easy to get shot of him and bring their own man in, even moreso if they detect that it's what the fans (the loudest fans rather than the majority of fans) want. Secondly, I'm not sure Allardyce is willing or capable of changing his setup to the extent that we can play to the strengths of players like Owen, Martins et al. We need these players in the game as much as possible, they are our matchwinners and if he gets them playing he will buy himself the time to overhaul the squad next summer. I don't see any evidence that he can or will do that though and that's worrying.

I don't think the constant chopping and changing helps. Butt and Emre has looked the best midfield partnership to me, they dominated Spurs (who were admittedly poor, but we won that game in midfield) and were always the best partnership under Roeder as well. When they play in the centre there is a nice balance with a mixture of grit and flair and with natural wingers out wide we look a balanced enough side. After the Spurs game Emre was pushed out wide left (where he has always struggled) and against Portsmouth he was dropped. There has been no time to allow any partnership to develop in any area of the field, and yet almost all of the changes have been unforced. At times it has looked like chaos and when people are caught out of position they play the way they're facing or they hoof it long. When Viduka returns I think Owen will get some more joy, simply because Viduka will get onto more of those longer passes. The problem with Viduka is he's as slow as ever and most centre backs will still beat him to the majority of high balls. His fitness is another problem, I expect him to be in and out of the team all season. Martins drops deep and sometimes works the channels, but his link up play is missing and he's not a good partner for Owen. Viduka has the link up play but he too can't win those aeriel balls on a consistent basis, lacks movement and certainly won't work the channels or create space for Owen because he only plays through the middle. We shouldn't set our team up solely around Owen, but at the moment we're playing to his weaknesses and it's no wonder that teams just don't fear him.

I edited my post further up because it was full of mistakes but I may as well put this bit here. It is quite difficult to stand by Allardyce and Owen, when the two of them clearly don't belong together. If you have watched Owen this season then you'll know he's been reduced to a spectator a lot of the time and challenging centre halves twice his size for aeriel balls, it is a shocking misuse of such a talented player. The fact he has got goals is testament to his quality but he has had very little service (as in ball to feet in the final third) at all. Many see the only solution as a change in management or a change in player, and I don't believe he'll be a Newcastle player beyond next summer. As for Allardyce, who knows. The problem for the manager is that Owen is such a high profile he player he has to play him, and has to accommodate his team to fit Owen in. We were playing 4-3-3 before Owen returned to fitness, now we play a kind of disjointed 4-4-2, against Reading we had no wingers and yesterday we had wingers playing on the wrong sides. Yet regardless of the changes in personnel and formation, we are still playing Allardyce's "percentages" football and Owen is left to try and do what he can with whatever comes his way. When Allardyce came there were fears that he only knew how to play football the Bolton way and I think it's safe to say he's building us up to do the same thing. All of his signings ticked the usual Allardyce boxes, strength, size, workrate, solidity and experience were the buzzwords of our transfer window. IMO Allardyce needs to wise up and get the best out of our matchwinners, but I remain to be convinced that he will ever change. He seems to have his style and he doesn't apologise for it, he won't change for anyone. Owen is accommodated because he has to be, but I don't believe Allardyce knows how to get the best out of him. It's a sad state of affairs and it's not unlikely that neither of them will be here this time next year.

I've got a gut feeling he'll make a good manager but I'd like to see him cut his teeth managing somewhere else first.

Scousertommy, the problem with the internet is that people can go straight onto a Liverpool forum and read the stuff posted by your own fans and see the way they get on when the team struggles. You won't be able to pull the wool over anyone's eyes and tell us your fans are different. Football fans are football fans. I could easily go on RAWK or wherever and drag up some embarrassing examples but I won't bother, I know you get my drift. Another problem with the internet is that you never know who is reading your posts. Many of those reading them, such as myself, have lived in Liverpool for years and know the way your own club's fans are. Your club won a cup treble yet many of the fans wanted rid of the manager, yet we get criticised for wanting rid of Souness and Roeder, two managers who no other Premiership clubs would touch with a bargepole. Would you have stuck by them, while you saw your beloved club slipping into a relegation battle? Would you f*ck. If the shoe was on the other foot and Torres didn't play until 2009 and spent the entire time trying to engineer a move to Real Madrid and had all sorts of release clauses in his contract, then when noone came in for him he pledged his allegiance to Liverpool, I know rightly a lot of your fans wouldn't trust him. When Gerrard was close to a move to Chelsea I know that a lot of your fans wanted rid. It's amazing that you can't see why a lot of Newcastle fans feel we should bring in a player more committed to the team, a player who will give the team more balance and perhaps most importantly a player more suited to the manager's style of football. Noone denies that Owen is a top class striker (bar the odd overexcited teenager venting on the internet), but our manager plays an ugly style of football which is not at all suitable for players like Owen. I don't see Owen ever being suited to Allardyce's tactics, but because of his quality he will always get some goals regardless. If you were loyal to Owen then there's a good chance you would want the manager out, and people would call you fickle for that. But if you stand by the manager then people call you fickle for not standing by the player.

Faye started the move for their second when he played a bizarre ball under no pressure at all straight to one of their players who immediately set Benjani away. Cacapa still should have had it though. Comedy of errors for the watching Portsmouth/neutral fan.

I'm not sure that the job Allardyce has today is the same job as he took on, he took on a job that was with a club hindered by debt. I would say most fans understood this and were willing to give him longer than they probably are willing to give him now. Expectations have changed because our circumstances are not the same as they were when he came. I expect more from him now than I did when he was first appointed and I'll not apologise for that. He has more to work with and should be able to produce more because of that. Fair points and I agree with all that. I meant that he knew what he was getting himself into when he agreed to take on players like Owen and Martins. Surely it occurred to him that Bolton-inspired tactics would not work with these players and that he, Sam Allardyce, would have to change tack. We don't seem to be playing to the strengths of our best players, we seem to be playing to Sam's Bolton-esque tactics regardless of the effect it has on our most influential players. We have seen some evidence that his tactics can work and we know what he did with Bolton, but where does that leave Owen, Martins et al in the meantime?

anyone thats want to change manager after newcastle past few years surely cant be in their right mind. Sam is the man for Newcastle, and we wont get any better. I agree with the sentiment, but our last two managers would have left this club in a worse state if they were given any more time, while the one before that was into his 70's and sadly needed to call it a day sooner or later.

Good post. The fears when he arrived were that he only knows how to play one way and the type of players he has signed and the type of football we're trying to play suggests this is true. He can only play the Bolton way and that's what he has in store for us. If we give him time he will set us up the same way and will do reasonably well, but it'll take a couple more transfer windows at least to achieve a total squad overhaul. I'm not sure I'm totally comfortable with that, as someone (think it was Shak) said yesterday his style of football leaves very little room for error. The wheels were coming off at Bolton before he left, his run of results after christmas last season were as bad as Roeder's and their form plummeted. Until the time comes (if it does) that he has an entire squad he can call his own then he must find a system that gets the best out of players like Michael Owen and if he's incapable of doing that he will walk. He knew what he was getting himself into when he took the job on.

I agree with all this. Harper had a good start to the season but he can't be expected to keep that form going throughout the season, unless you think he's a top goalkeeper. We saw last season that he drops quite a few clangers and is far less dependable than Given.

These comments from Benjani after the game were particularly relevant to our current situation. Portsmouth go away from home with a positive attitude and belief, they don't fear anybody and fair play to them, they got what they deserved today even if the scoreline flattered them a bit. We need to take a leaf out of their book, they did to us what we should have done to Reading.

Bernd Schuster after the game to the press: "Where does the referee come from? He's Catalan? There is nothing left to say."

What a horrible time to be playing sunderland. If we go down fighting it'd be bad enough, but if we surrender the way we did to Reading with negative tactics/team selection the pressure on him will be much worse. Looking on the bright side, assuming we don't go there 'to not concede' and we actually take the initiative, it'll be a good place to turn things around or, from Sam's perspective, paper over the cracks for a while.

?? I'm on about the quality of Joey Barton as a footballer, and how I am surprised at why so many have seen him as a potential saviour. I've suggested that it's perhaps a sign of how desperately poor we've been at times lately that a player like Barton, who really is nothing special, should be held in this light. Aye, he's played two games for us. What's your point? Bizarre post. You made it sound as "I told us so" At the fact Barton hadn't played well because really he was only ana average player. It wasn't intended that way, it was more intended to show that my views were not based on two games, that they weren't just a knee-jerk reaction. As I said I do think he's a decent player, but nothing special. He will get better and grow into this team and should be a decent signing for us, but I think hopes have been pinned on him because our attacking play has been so poor and lacking in ideas at times. It is normal that people hope someone will come in and sort it out, but as a result of that he has (imo) been overrated during his absence.