James

Yes, lets ignore what the the professional player says. Lets ignore the decent manager who picks the team. After all, you really know more than they do. So what´s your take on that goal? Was it a shot, in which case what´s Owen got to do with it? Was it a pass, in which case it was either a bad pass or Owen didn´t have the pace to get to it? I agree Gordon probably positioned himself for the way our strikers were set up, but you could argue that everybody inside the box at the time of the pass/shot had an effect on the goal. The only noteworty thing Owen did in the Sunderland match was make a good run on a Harper long ball and miss a chance he could/should (?) have scored for a player of his stature.. In regards to that Owen chance once he had to shift it onto his left foot the chance was gone ... because our world class striker has no left foot! Martins would have hammered it ... might have ended up in row Z but he would have hit it and not passed it to their goalie and it would have had a better chance of going in. That is assuming Martins has the same brilliant first touch control that Owen has, which is extremely debatable.

Yes, lets ignore what the the professional player says. Lets ignore the decent manager who picks the team. After all, you really know more than they do. So what´s your take on that goal? Was it a shot, in which case what´s Owen got to do with it? Was it a pass, in which case it was either a bad pass or Owen didn´t have the pace to get to it? I agree Gordon probably positioned himself for the way our strikers were set up, but you could argue that everybody inside the box at the time of the pass/shot had an effect on the goal. The only noteworty thing Owen did in the Sunderland match was make a good run on a Harper long ball and miss a chance he could/should (?) have scored for a player of his stature.. As Milner says, and I had said myself before his World Interview, Owen made a very good diagonal run in front of the defenders to the near post which brought Gordon to the near post to make a save, and also brought two defenders towards Owen. Had Owen not made that run, Gordon would not have been so close to the near post, so would have dived outwards to catch the cross, and if he missed, one of the two defenders might have been in a position to clear the ball off the line. Other strikers wouldn't have made that run, or wouldnt have got in front of Sunderland's defence. In that situation, Martins usually stands on the penalty spot. The bit in bold though shows that you don't have much football knowledge to be honest. Milner played a good ball in the box, it was a ball with good odds, he wasn't aiming for anything specific, but he would have known that the likeliest possibilities from that ball were: a) A corner b) A goal by a team mate attacking the goal c) An own goal d) A clearance off the line e) A goal for Milner f) Everyone misses It is extremely stupid to think that it was a bad pass - players dont specifically aim for another player, they take a chance and try to find the area most likely to yield an outcome, and Milner did just that. It is just as stupid to accuse Owen of missing the cross through lack of pace. Owen doesn't know exactly where the ball is going to be delivered, he gambles and takes a chance, but always attacks the goal with his run. Keep playing balls into the right area, and have attackers gambling by attacking the six yard line, and we will score more than if we dont gamble. If one move doesn't pay off, it is not a bad pass or a slow run, its probability. Thus Milner and Owen did what was needed of them, andwe scored. Now we need to work on getting more opportunities for putting those kind of balls into the box. Martins just doesn't gamble. He hovers and waits for a perfect ball which is never going to happen. As Shearer said last season, he will never be a good striker if he never learns to gamble. If we cant rely on Owen, we'll need to find someone else to attack the ball in the box.

Given's a world class shot stopper, but we need the good attributes of Jaaskelainen than we need the good attributes of Given at this moment.

I actually believe that Shola would be better in the Spanish leagues than he can be in the Premiership

My point exactly.. Besides, if a player would `only` contribute by scoring, he would have to score a hell of a lot more than Owen ever did. Van Nistelrooij is a good example. He will not create too much himself, but over the course of his career has consistently scored almost twice as many goals as Owen. We are playing Rolls Royce wages for a very untrustworthy Jaguar (sorry NE5 ).. Matter of fact Owen is only a great finisher inside the box. Outside of it he isn't a threat as his shots from outside the box are rather pathetic. I'm really not sure he would score more goals than martins at themoment at all. I think you'll find that most good teams score most of their goals from inside the box. Long range finishing is a useful ability but should never ever be put ahead of finishing from inside the area. I'd rather have someone who could do both as Martins does. Martins is below average inside the area as he doesn't attack the ball. It can be taught, but until that happens there are so many better players in that department.

Yes, lets ignore what the the professional player says. Lets ignore the decent manager who picks the team. After all, you really know more than they do.

My point exactly.. Besides, if a player would `only` contribute by scoring, he would have to score a hell of a lot more than Owen ever did. Van Nistelrooij is a good example. He will not create too much himself, but over the course of his career has consistently scored almost twice as many goals as Owen. We are playing Rolls Royce wages for a very untrustworthy Jaguar (sorry NE5 ).. Matter of fact Owen is only a great finisher inside the box. Outside of it he isn't a threat as his shots from outside the box are rather pathetic. I'm really not sure he would score more goals than martins at themoment at all. I think you'll find that most good teams score most of their goals from inside the box. Long range finishing is a useful ability but should never ever be put ahead of finishing from inside the area.

And I would not disagree with that. However, I know its not very popular on here, but Allardyce likes to play with averages and so do I. Sometimes the odds dont pay, but we are more likely to get the goal with Owen than with Martins when both are fit. Thus I would always pick Owen if I had to choose for a single 90 minute match. I don't think its the Owen over Martins thing that people disagree with its the "If Owen didn't play this game we wouldn't have scored" with examples which I think most people are questioning. My initial post was a response to the comments that Martins would have done everything Owen did for us this season plus even more. If you reread my post, its not referring to nothing happenning against Sunderland if Martins was on the pitch for the whole game instead of Owen, but rather if Martins was in Owen's place for the one move leading upto the goal. I'm merely pointing out that Owen has made a contribution that other players at our disposal probably (not definitely, I never said something would definitely happen or not happen, people are putting words into my mouth here) would not have made. One of the reasons we have been shit post Shearer is that we've had no-one attacking the ball in the area. Owen is one person likely to do that, but fitness has kept him away from that role. We'll probably have to sign someone, no-one at our disposal is the answer. If we can get someone who can hold the ball up and attack the ball, we can partner him with Martins, otherwise, this player would need to play with Viduka and Martins must stay on the bench.

And I would not disagree with that. However, I know its not very popular on here, but Allardyce likes to play with averages and so do I. Sometimes the odds dont pay, but we are more likely to get the goal with Owen than with Martins when both are fit. Thus I would always pick Owen if I had to choose for a single 90 minute match.

Hasn't it occured to you that if Martins had played instead of Owen he might just of scored himself? Or got a hat-trick? Or set up numerous goals? Or been sent off? You dont know with Martins, anything could have happenned. But you can be sure that if you get everyone else playing well, and consistently get the ball into the box, we'd score more goals over the course of a season with a fit Owen than a fit Martins, as for 89 minutes, Owen's attacking play is better than Martins.

The Milner quotes are on Newcastle World if people still dont believe that the proffessionals reckon Owen played a big big part in our goal vs Sunderland.

Milner said Owen deserved credit for his goal vs Sunderland. I dont know if you see MOTD in Holland, but last season, Martins was criticised by Shearer for not attacking the six yard box, but instead looking for space at the edge of the box. Thus Owen is making the right decisions, and Martins has not. I cant fully remember the Reading goal, as stated in my initial post, so I wont discuss that one until I see it again.

Gejon let me explain the points I made, then perhaps you will better understand where i am coming from.: Milner basically confirmed that his cross went in because the run from Owen drew Craig Gordon out of position. When the ball has been in that kind of area, and Martins was on the pitch, Martins would have (probably)ran backwards towards the eighteen yard line to find space, which would have meant that Gordon had an easy catch. There were similar situations for the Portsmouth and Reading goals where Owen occupied areas where Martins would normally have not. The passing success rates come from Telegraph match stats. And the last paragraph consists of ifs and buts based on what went before.

You're a fucking fruit loop. I don't care what you think thank you.

I hope this post is a piss take Obviously I'm ignoring the hideous injury record and his inability to fit in with the team's best system, but when it comes down to quality, there is only one winner.

Put it this way, if Martins was on the pitch instead of Owen when Milner scored against the Mackems we wouldn't have scored, and we would have lost. We wouldn't have scored against Portsmouth either. Nor Reading either (iirc Owen's involvement). That means Owen has played a vital contribution in our last two or three goals. Add to that the fact that Owen is consistently completing 10-20% more passes than Martins. Owen's overall contribution has been let down by injuries and poor tactics. If the rest of the team were playing as well as earlier in the season when Owen was injured and Martins was in his place, I'm sure that he'd be our top scorer by now.

Allardyce has done the right thing regarding transfers, the players he wants have been unavailable or turned us down so he's prepared to wait for the right players to come along. After how far the club has gone backwards in the past few years he's going to struggle to attract any real quality, especially in January. Crouch, Ben Haim, Diouf, Arshavin, Jaaskelainen etc are the sort of players we will be looking to attract, not top class but players who will help improve the squad and push us back up to a European place. But isn't that the problem. Faye Cacapa Roz Taylor are all good players, Ben Haim isn't that much of a step up. Arshavin could work out but again, is he that much of a step up from Barton Emre etc, the same with Jaaskelainen over Given. Adding more good players isn't going to boost us significantly, and just add to the likelyhood of more shuffling of the pack trying to fit players in. I'm sure the current squad is good enough to get us to a similar level and it is just the system they are trying to play that is holding the team back to an extent. Sort out a first 11, get them playing to a style they are comfortable with and then spend big if we have a chance at a player that really can add to the mix. You could argue that, the players we are being connected with are the players that can work with Sams tactics better than the ones currently at his disposal, but that doesn't say much when a good deal of the team are his own buys in the first place. Which is what I was getting at and you can understand where he's coming from if he does sign the likes of Crouch, Diouf and Arshavin, 3 players who you would think are suited to the 4-3-3 formation which he favours, I think his problem at the moment is the strikers he has are not really suited to it apart from maybe Martins, we've seen what Viduka's like up top in a 4-3-3 and he doesn't look too clever, Owen doesn't have anything that makes you think he could play there either. The problem he has is that the better players he want didn't want to come in the Summer, so I think the best thing he can do is take the long term view of getting the team playing how he wants(4-3-3) and add quality when hopefully we improve under the tactics he knows best, I said in another thread that some of the players he brought in were with a short term view just to get numbers in rather than being an important part of the team for the future. Agreed, but even as 'bodies' they have been dissapointing, and that has more to do with Sam than the squads individual abilities in my opinion. Sadly this will probably mean the end of the road for some of our more popular players, and I can see people getting somewhat disgruntled with the replacements, despite the need for them if we are to stick with Sam and follow his long term plans through to their logical conclusions. Personally, I can see Owen, Emre, Martins, Milner, and N'Zogbia all being potential long-term casualties, and this could prove unpopular with many.

Terms agreed with Bruce.

We will not spend more than £10m in January because other clubs wont want to sell. Asking for anything more is stupid and unrealistic.

Well now we get a month to see whether we are better without Owen in the team as some have claimed. If so, it will be down to tactics rather than player quality, but it is easier to change one player than a whole team. In that case, get rid, even though he is less of a financial worry than he was under Shepherd. If we dont do any better without him though, we should stick with him as he is better than Martins at scoring goals if the supply is there. Whatever the situation, and whoever he is playing for, I think it is pefectly reasonable for his employers to publicly request that Owen is not selected for any more internationals this season if England aren't going to be in the Euros.

England are bound to lose as many English players are stupid enough to not want to play abroad.

I like the sound of that. There isn't really much for a captain to do most of the year, as the squad aren't together. Maybe though we could announce who the permanent captain is for international tournaments.

I reckon January would be the best time to sign this guy, I can perceive Allardyce doing what Fergie did with Evra and Vidic. Thus he could be a bit of a Luque until 2008/09, but then he becomes a bit brilliant, playing in some attacking midfield role in whatever system Allardyce is slowly trying to tune this season.

Perhaps its six months out if he needs surgery. He clearly has a major long-term problem that was caused by a thug called Marlon Harewood.

Whenever someone slates Bobby, just remind them that a defence of: Griffin Bramble O'Brien Hughes beat Juventus 1-0 in the Champions League Not to mention: Griffin Dabizas O'Brien Hughes who beat Feyenoord 3-2. Makes him well worth the money.