magorific

Which shows you choose to beleive the first of my 2 scenarios that i gave - whereas im probably a disciple of the second. You have just as much evidence as i do regarding what actually went on at the club - yet you have blindly backed one man deifintitely over the other with absolutely no knowledge of the truth. I have probably chosen to back the other man becasue i believed in what he had planned for the club and i saw that as being more important than the whims of a manager who's managerial record doesnt warrant such blind faith. You have chosen to back a manager purely and simply becasue of something he achieved 15 years ago for the club, and you believe that that is more imporant for the club in the long run. The difference between our beliefs is that one has already dramatically changed the future of the club for no good reason and the other hasnt. I am not backing KK purely and simply because of events of 15 years ago, I'm backing him because all the evidence (including some fed to national Sunday papers by Ashley's camp a week or two into this saga) is that Keegan didn't get players he was promised in the final days of the window, and was landed with Gonzalez and Xisco instead. Your final paragraph is just gibberish. Sunday papers? Each paper has its own view and version of the events. And if you say he didnt get the players he was promised - do you know the circumstances if which the players didnt join? Or are you assuming that Wise didnt fancy them and therefore didnt even bother going for them? Im not, my basis of belief is not becasue x undrmined y, or y stabbed z in the back, its that i value the long term plan which Ashley seemed to be pitching over any individual at the club. Supposing, things did go smoother - we could have had Deschamps, we could have had Terim we could even have had Zico by now, would that of been such a resounding disaster? To me, no. If Ashley allowed his director of football to overrule Deschamps, Terim or Zico on transfers, it would be a disaster, yes. So no decent retort then? Nice one. WTF? I am challenging the validity of Ashley's long-term plan. That's my retort. Where's yours?

Which shows you choose to beleive the first of my 2 scenarios that i gave - whereas im probably a disciple of the second. You have just as much evidence as i do regarding what actually went on at the club - yet you have blindly backed one man deifintitely over the other with absolutely no knowledge of the truth. I have probably chosen to back the other man becasue i believed in what he had planned for the club and i saw that as being more important than the whims of a manager who's managerial record doesnt warrant such blind faith. You have chosen to back a manager purely and simply becasue of something he achieved 15 years ago for the club, and you believe that that is more imporant for the club in the long run. The difference between our beliefs is that one has already dramatically changed the future of the club for no good reason and the other hasnt. I am not backing KK purely and simply because of events of 15 years ago, I'm backing him because all the evidence (including some fed to national Sunday papers by Ashley's camp a week or two into this saga) is that Keegan didn't get players he was promised in the final days of the window, and was landed with Gonzalez and Xisco instead. Your final paragraph is just gibberish. Sunday papers? Each paper has its own view and version of the events. And if you say he didnt get the players he was promised - do you know the circumstances if which the players didnt join? Or are you assuming that Wise didnt fancy them and therefore didnt even bother going for them? Im not, my basis of belief is not becasue x undrmined y, or y stabbed z in the back, its that i value the long term plan which Ashley seemed to be pitching over any individual at the club. Supposing, things did go smoother - we could have had Deschamps, we could have had Terim we could even have had Zico by now, would that of been such a resounding disaster? To me, no. If Ashley allowed his director of football to overrule Deschamps, Terim or Zico on transfers, it would be a disaster, yes.

Which shows you choose to beleive the first of my 2 scenarios that i gave - whereas im probably a disciple of the second. You have just as much evidence as i do regarding what actually went on at the club - yet you have blindly backed one man deifintitely over the other with absolutely no knowledge of the truth. I have probably chosen to back the other man becasue i believed in what he had planned for the club and i saw that as being more important than the whims of a manager who's managerial record doesnt warrant such blind faith. You have chosen to back a manager purely and simply becasue of something he achieved 15 years ago for the club, and you believe that that is more imporant for the club in the long run. The difference between our beliefs is that one has already dramatically changed the future of the club for no good reason and the other hasnt. I am not backing KK purely and simply because of events of 15 years ago, I'm backing him because all the evidence (including some fed to national Sunday papers by Ashley's camp a week or two into this saga) is that Keegan didn't get players he was promised in the final days of the window, and was landed with Gonzalez and Xisco instead. Your final paragraph is just gibberish.

Can you quote the seasons when any of those got within a million miles (or 4 points) of winning the title? Thanks. I like the way you specify the number of points we were from winning. Goes to show how threadbare your argument actually is. Okay one place, two games, 4 days anyway you like - explain how those managers have achieved as much as KK did. We all know Keegan was/is "over" emotional - that's one of the reasons why he connected with the fans so its okay to comment on it but comparing what he did with non-entities and football murderers shows you've completely missed what he did. At a time when so many people are simply falling out of love with football, Keegan was the perfect antidote to that. In the cold light of day its possible that someone more clinical could have and still will be "better" for the club in the medium/long term but this sniping at a man who has done more for Newcastle United than anyone in my lifetime is absolutely pathetic. Ok, i was gonna edit my last post - becasue i didnt want people to think i was anti keegan and go down a whole different debate, my major point and the point of this whole thread is that maybe the fans have thought with there hearts and not there heads - they've blindly backed a manager with a not so great managerial record with no facts and by doing that have sacrificed the remotest possiblty of seeing what i think is a good much needed long term plan come anywhere near into fruition. I think thats why maybe the media are half correct by calling us impatient and delusional becasue theres an definitive element of 'not seeing the wood for the trees'. EDIT: another who's proved my point - thinking with their hearts not there heads- by that token of sentimentality Shepherad et al are untouchable in your eyes as there achievments HAVE to be paralleled with Keegans. Can you quote the seasons when any of those got within a million miles (or 4 points) of winning the title? Thanks. I like the way you specify the number of points we were from winning. Goes to show how threadbare your argument actually is. Okay one place, two games, 4 days anyway you like - explain how those managers have achieved as much as KK did. We all know Keegan was/is "over" emotional - that's one of the reasons why he connected with the fans so its okay to comment on it but comparing what he did with non-entities and football murderers shows you've completely missed what he did. At a time when so many people are simply falling out of love with football, Keegan was the perfect antidote to that. In the cold light of day its possible that someone more clinical could have and still will be "better" for the club in the medium/long term but this sniping at a man who has done more for Newcastle United than anyone in my lifetime is absolutely pathetic. Ok, i was gonna edit my last post - becasue i didnt want people to think i was anti keegan and go down a whole different debate, my major point and the point of this whole thread is that maybe the fans have thought with there hearts and not there heads - they've blindly backed a manager with a not so great managerial record with no facts and by doing that have sacrificed the remotest possiblty of seeing what i think is a good much needed long term plan come anywhere near into fruition. I think thats why maybe the media are half correct by calling us impatient and delusional becasue theres an definitive element of 'not seeing the wood for the trees'. EDIT: another who's proved my point - thinking with their hearts not there heads- by that token of sentimentality Shepherad et al are untouchable in your eyes as there achievments HAVE to be paralleled with Keegans. Can you quote the seasons when any of those got within a million miles (or 4 points) of winning the title? Thanks. I like the way you specify the number of points we were from winning. Goes to show how threadbare your argument actually is. Okay one place, two games, 4 days anyway you like - explain how those managers have achieved as much as KK did. We all know Keegan was/is "over" emotional - that's one of the reasons why he connected with the fans so its okay to comment on it but comparing what he did with non-entities and football murderers shows you've completely missed what he did. At a time when so many people are simply falling out of love with football, Keegan was the perfect antidote to that. In the cold light of day its possible that someone more clinical could have and still will be "better" for the club in the medium/long term but this sniping at a man who has done more for Newcastle United than anyone in my lifetime is absolutely pathetic. Ok, i was gonna edit my last post - becasue i didnt want people to think i was anti keegan and go down a whole different debate, my major point and the point of this whole thread is that maybe the fans have thought with there hearts and not there heads - they've blindly backed a manager with a not so great managerial record with no facts and by doing that have sacrificed the remotest possiblty of seeing what i think is a good much needed long term plan come anywhere near into fruition. I think thats why maybe the media are half correct by calling us impatient and delusional becasue theres an definitive element of 'not seeing the wood for the trees'. And my major point about your major point was that Ashley's was NOT a "good, much needed long-term plan" - because his plan was to let Dennis Wise overrule our manager on transfers.

How about someone who didn't nearly relegate a team five times stronger than ours in his last job, six years ago. Someone who's biggest achievement in the last fifteen years is more impressive than winning seven games out of twenty six with Boro. We've got a better manager running our academy for f*** sake. To be fair, he had to sell Ferdinand, Keane and Bowyer before the start of the season, and Woodgate, Bowyer and Fowler in the January

Do the names Hamilton, Brady, Serrant, Georgiadis, Perez, Andersson and Guivarc'h - or the words "attack, attack, attack" - mean anything to you?

What, we will have "lost out dramatically" by getting rid of a bloke who thinks a part-time director of football with f*** all qualifications for the job should sign players against our manager's wishes??? Yes, we're in a mess, but it's of Ashley's making.

Can you quote the seasons when any of those got within a million miles (or 4 points) of winning the title? Thanks. I like the way you specify the number of points we were from winning. Goes to show how threadbare your argument actually is. Okay one place, two games, 4 days anyway you like - explain how those managers have achieved as much as KK did. We all know Keegan was/is "over" emotional - that's one of the reasons why he connected with the fans so its okay to comment on it but comparing what he did with non-entities and football murderers shows you've completely missed what he did. At a time when so many people are simply falling out of love with football, Keegan was the perfect antidote to that. In the cold light of day its possible that someone more clinical could have and still will be "better" for the club in the medium/long term but this sniping at a man who has done more for Newcastle United than anyone in my lifetime is absolutely pathetic. Spot on. Of course KK is a flawed personality, but as flawed as the decision to appoint Wise as a director of football with the power (which KK HADN'T been informed about) to take unilateral decisions on transfers? Nowhere f***ing near.

WUM?

When you say "so long" you actually mean 10 days (?), right? Were you one of non exisiting people who have alway hated the clubs secrecy and hated that the media knew 'nothing'? If so, then i suppose 10 days IS a long time, then again, for me i was happy to wait - especially as we dont know the nature of the meeting that Ahley had with keegan and especially as how Ashley was on 'business' at the time. Still doesnt equate to forcing him out, especially after having put in so much of his personal welath into the club, bringing back a hugely popular figure, regenerating the youth system and improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues. He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place. As for your diluted protests - who's to say? Moot point really. Ok, so Mclaren was one of 4 manager i mentioned - although strictly speaking silverware will always been on your permanent record of achievments, not " got a team from second division to near the top of the premier league - with a fair bit of cash". Pedantic i know, but unfortunately true. The bottom line is that he IS part of a group of mediocre managers, any defence of him is defence based purely on personal feelings for the man, becasue someone with equal record at antoerh club wouldnt get a second hearing here, and that isnt subjectivity. As for your final question - it depends on what side you view the argument - if you genuinely believe that Wise hasbeen indermining Keegan from the start and Keegan actually had NO say on the signings then it would be Wise who should of left - and Keegan should of left when he was first undermined as his principles are so strong. But if you view the argument as Keegans targets not fitting into the policy of the club and possibly dragging his heels over the situation forcing Wise to sign players over his head without his authoriy then maybe Keegan was right to leave. As you can see, in both scenarios Keegan doesnt come of favourably so i'd say that for the best interests of the club Keegan should definitely of left and replaced with a manager who could defintiely work within a team structure. There is also a case for Wise becoming an antagonist and him therefore leaving as well. He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place . . ." WTF? You condemn Keegan unreservedly for NOT accepting Wise's input, then conclude by saying Wise could be an "antagonist" and should go as well. WTF? You say the point about diluted protests is "moot", yet the basis of your original argument was that the strength of those very same protests proved NUFC fans are not patient enough. WTF? "improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues . . ." WTF??? We are playing David f***ing Edgar at right-back ffs......................

Oh aye, dont get me wrong i was happy with what keegan was doing - in fact supremeley happy with that way the club was going upto the end of the transfer window- thats not to say that had the window shut under normal circumstance i wouldnt of been lambasting the board for the lack of depth in the squad, becasue i would of. My point is that there seems to be a huge majority of fans who have been thinking with their hearts and not with there heads - they've prioritised the wrong thing in my opinion. As you say, it's no good having the sytems if you dont have someone who can manage the players - well it turns out that Keegan couldnt manage the players becasue he couldnt fit into the system so he leaves. Thats the simple equation. We should of voiced our concerns, voiced our unhappiness at a good start being wasted and politics undermining the fans and the club but thats as far as it shouldof gone, forcing the owner out seems like such a disproportionate reaction. Losing keegan wouldnt of been the end of the world for this club. the stats is a very relevant point to be fair - he is a mediocre manager, he doesnt havent a record which is that much better than the likes of Curbishly, Allardyce, Veneable even Mclaren has more solid achievemnts than him. The point is that his major managerial achievment was over 15 years ago and the fans have put that sentimentality above the sytem that Ashley and co have tried to input, and for the life of me i cant see why, hence my belief that the fans are thinking with there hearts not their heads. football is a passionate game- but when it comes to deciding the future of your entire club - what your heart says should be a million miles away from what you should actually be doing. Why is wanting to get rid of an owner who said NOTHING, and authorised his club to say NOTHING for so long after KK disappeared so wrong? Had Ashley explained himself, I've no doubt the protests would have been seriously diluted. That isn't my heart talking, it's my head. The FACTS are also that he and his chosen people failed to address several basic necessities in the summer transfer market. As for your stats argument, it falls down - in my view- when you start suggesting his record is no better than that of a manager like McClaren (how does winning the League Cup compare with turning Newcastle from certainties for the old Div 3 into marginally the second best team in the country?). To finish, a question for you: who should have stayed at Newcastle after the end of the transfer window: Keegan or Wise?

IF Ashley cannot sell NUFC and the club goes down, you will be proved right especially about damaging the club. On the other hand, any new owners will know that they cant take NUFC over and f*** about with the fans and take them for granted like Mike Ashley and his mates did. This could and should ultimately result in us getting a more stable club that is ran in a far more professional manner than what it ever was under Mike Ashleys "team" of non communicators. Nufc fans will only take to an owner who's gonna lavish them with transfer funds - they're too impatient to see a long term policy and system take shape especially at the expense of a statistically mediocre manager. How many Abramovich's are there out there? Theres something like 2000 billlionaires out there, how many do you think would be keen to blow there money on nufc? A club which now has a history of forcing out the previous incumbents, maybe even 2 of them. How many of these billoinaires at a guess do you think would be keen to own a club where the fans are more powerful than the man with the purse strings? Im still unsure how you've come to the conclusion that he's taken the fans for granted. As for your final dig - the club spends its entire tenure keeping a privacy shield away from the media and with that also the fans and the club is congratulated for keeping out the poisonous press, but the fans couldnt wait 2 weeks to see how things transpired before the club made a statement and is lambasted for the lack of communication.....damned if you do, damned if you dont. You really couldnt make it up. Rubbish, frankly. Was there any sign or sound of fans' revolt in the air in the last few weeks of last season? The majority were happy we seemed to be making slow but steady progress under Keegan, with the promise of the squad being significantly - but NOT spectacularly - in the summer. It wasn't. KK felt betrayed. So do the fans. Why would we look to revolt at the end of last season? If you're trying to say that nufc fans would be happy with an owner who has a long term plan for the club with slow steady progress, then what was wrong with Ashley's plan? Putting aside the still unknown circumstances of Keegans departures, what problems did you see with a club who looked to invest in younger players from around the whole of europe and not just the big clubs of the major leagues, looking to develop them and making them stars for the club? I am more than happy to admit i was very dissapointed with the lack of acitvity surrounding this club - however with a club that was rowing in seperate directions i can see, but not understand why we had so little activity. EDIT: The sad fact of this case is that the fans are using the lack of numbers as another stick to beat Ashley with (which they are well within there rights) but are conviniently forgetting that the clubs squad has dramatically improved. Which was more important out the 2? Put it simply, would you rather have a good sized squad with similar quality to last year or would you rather have a similar sizeds squad which was better than last year? I know which is more important - you have to ask yourself if you do and if you do you'll understand where you arguments fall down. Only just logged back on now, so apologies for late reply. Of course there is nothing wrong with a plan to curb over-spending on trophy signings and search for talented youngsters worldwide. But Ashley pursued that plan with men totally ill equipped to follow Arsenal's lead. Dennis f*****g Wise and an ex Chelsea steward ffs. Had he put a Frank Arneson type in to do the job of finding talent, we'd have found some worth having, Keegan would still be here and the fans would be saying nowt. As it is, Ashley's stuck by men who have unearthed precious little in the way of decent young talent (Kadar aside, perhaps) and made one undeniably good senior signing (Gutierrez), while ignoring blatant shortcomings (lack of full-backs, creative midfielders) in a squad that you, bizarrely, claim has been "dramatically" strengthened. That's not to mention that Ashley himself was promising corporate fans a "wow" signing before the close of the transfer window.....

IF Ashley cannot sell NUFC and the club goes down, you will be proved right especially about damaging the club. On the other hand, any new owners will know that they cant take NUFC over and f*** about with the fans and take them for granted like Mike Ashley and his mates did. This could and should ultimately result in us getting a more stable club that is ran in a far more professional manner than what it ever was under Mike Ashleys "team" of non communicators. Nufc fans will only take to an owner who's gonna lavish them with transfer funds - they're too impatient to see a long term policy and system take shape especially at the expense of a statistically mediocre manager. How many Abramovich's are there out there? Theres something like 2000 billlionaires out there, how many do you think would be keen to blow there money on nufc? A club which now has a history of forcing out the previous incumbents, maybe even 2 of them. How many of these billoinaires at a guess do you think would be keen to own a club where the fans are more powerful than the man with the purse strings? Im still unsure how you've come to the conclusion that he's taken the fans for granted. As for your final dig - the club spends its entire tenure keeping a privacy shield away from the media and with that also the fans and the club is congratulated for keeping out the poisonous press, but the fans couldnt wait 2 weeks to see how things transpired before the club made a statement and is lambasted for the lack of communication.....damned if you do, damned if you dont. You really couldnt make it up. Rubbish, frankly. Was there any sign or sound of fans' revolt in the air in the last few weeks of last season? The majority were happy we seemed to be making slow but steady progress under Keegan, with the promise of the squad being significantly - but NOT spectacularly - in the summer. It wasn't. KK felt betrayed. So do the fans.

David Craig: "It's all over .... er, no it isn't, er yes it is ........."

I heard the same.

Steve Bruce's odds tumbling everywhere today. Either the bookies are running scared or someone has lumped quite serious money on him.

I'm sick of people blaming KK for things. Piss of you twats. i'm sick of people blindly believing one side or the other with no f***ing evidence. piss off you twats. Quite. No evidence? FFS, look at the state of our f**ing squad! Not one fit full-back after KK went on for literally months about needing new full-backs in.

They (Reliance) said they hadn't been able to have a serious discussion with anyone at the club re a takeover. Sad if true.

What is this Newcastle Echo?

Ince's odds have plummeted to as low as 6/1. At least it shows the bookies don't have a clue what's what....

Oh aye - I can just see the generous Blackburn board freely releasing Ince from that brand new contract The article seems to base its theory solely on the fact that the Wiki page says Ince and Wise are mates...........

Tonight's Chron says Ince is now a contender. Mind, AO quotes directly from Ince's Wikipedia page......

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any. Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way. I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst. Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan. I'll say no more... Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently...... I'm told a statement from Ashley, which won't do him any favours, is imminent Are you "sensing" a statement is imminent, David Craig style? No.

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any. Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way. I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst. Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan. I'll say no more... Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently...... I'm told a statement from Ashley, which won't do him any favours, is imminent

Ashley is getting a lot of stick from some fans although nobody knows what part he's played in all of this, if any. Keegan has done what he's done in the past, he's walked away from a managers job when things haven't gone his way. I'll reserve judgement before deciding who has come out of it the worst. Ashley appointed Wise on a premise that he failed to stick to You won't have long to wait for proof that the goalposts were moved on Keegan. I'll say no more... Howay man, spit it out. Facts and specifics have been a bit thin on the ground recently...... Ashley will Keegan was told that he had the final say. So why the f*** are you slagging him off then?