TRon

No one can gag Keegan unless he agrees to it, and the only way he will settle quietly is if his case isn't watertight (which it obviously isn't). A settlement is an agreement between the two parts, so Keegan will of course have to agree to it. But you have no reason to assume Keegan will accept it only if his case isn't watertight. They may chose to pay him more in a settlement than he could expect from a court case, rather than risking a PR disaster, and Keegan might think money is worth more than publicly humiliating the people at the club. We don't know. But basically, a settlement means the club think they may have more to lose by letting the case go public, and that Keegan think he has no more to win, or small chance of it, by taking it further. Interesting opinion. One that just seems to pluck any possibility out of thin air with no regard to how probable it is in reality. Do you have experience of employment litigation issues? To be offering such wildly improbable scenarios i'd hazard not. "Lets give him 12m out of court so we dont have to give him 9m in court". Genius. Clearly not what he was trying to say, but fair play for being so pig headed. Keegan will not necessarily get the full £9 million he is asking for but still win the case and still get some compo from the club, as well as having the satisfaction of having the lame excuses trotted out by those in charge on full view to all and sundry. Ashley isn't in the business of giving away cash so the fact they're trying to settle out of court speaks volumes. With Keegan apparently liable for 2m then an out of court settlement doesnt speak volumes about anything. If Keegan is liable and the club aren't at fault why are they giving him £4 million? Are they giving him £4m? It would be useful to know that's a fact before going into whys or wherefores..

No one can gag Keegan unless he agrees to it, and the only way he will settle quietly is if his case isn't watertight (which it obviously isn't). A settlement is an agreement between the two parts, so Keegan will of course have to agree to it. But you have no reason to assume Keegan will accept it only if his case isn't watertight. They may chose to pay him more in a settlement than he could expect from a court case, rather than risking a PR disaster, and Keegan might think money is worth more than publicly humiliating the people at the club. We don't know. But basically, a settlement means the club think they may have more to lose by letting the case go public, and that Keegan think he has no more to win, or small chance of it, by taking it further. Interesting opinion. One that just seems to pluck any possibility out of thin air with no regard to how probable it is in reality. Do you have experience of employment litigation issues? To be offering such wildly improbable scenarios i'd hazard not. "Lets give him 12m out of court so we dont have to give him 9m in court". Genius. Clearly not what he was trying to say, but fair play for being so pig headed. Keegan will not necessarily get the full £9 million he is asking for but still win the case and still get some compo from the club, as well as having the satisfaction of having the lame excuses trotted out by those in charge on full view to all and sundry. Ashley isn't in the business of giving away cash so the fact they're trying to settle out of court speaks volumes. Have you told those sitting at the tribunal all this yet? The judge might not have access to all the facts you seem to have.

End of story. Tino was the last person to blame, but he became a convenient scapegoat. I think Tino's goal which put us 2-1 up at the epic 4-3 game at Anfield is one of my favourite memories. No one else could even have imagined a a more crazily crafted finish. Pure genius.

He showed a great attitude and desire since day one. I remember being impressed with his "can't wait to play for Newcastle" approach even when we were looking at him with a possibility to sign him. When Beye comes back into the side the mean machine back four will be back to full strength

Dont be crazy. As if Ashley is thinking of 'hanging Keegan out to dry' after the reaction of the fans to him leaving. PR disaster. Turn of phrase which seemed appropriate as I was thinking back to their 'FACT' phase. If they're in the right, they should set about demonstrating it as clearly as possible so as to nullify that reaction you speak of. It still hangs over the club, we've lived through the PR disaster - I dare say it can't get any worse, as I think going forwards, things that are going to drive attendances down and generally upset the support are going to relate far more to their overall running of the club (appearing to seriously consider Kinnear the long-term manager of the club etc.). 'Out of court settlements' and silence are going to be for the worse, if they're serious about wanting to drive this club on with the spirit it possessed not so long ago. On a personal level, I agree with you. I dont think a lot of other fans would accept Keegan getting another fucking over from the club, nor do i think the club's hierarchy understands where some fans (the open-minded ones) are with regards to the whole debate. I might be wrong, but my judgement is most of those who would have a support-ending reaction to Keegan getting fucked already have done, though it might make some others feel temporarily sore again. Still, making a triage judgement, I also think it would make many feel less sore about the previous fucking - and for yet more, it would dispel some of the fog that has surrounded the regime's motivations since it all took place. People won't keep looking back to that period wondering what took place and whether it means the regime do or don't deserve faith over future matters. Agreed on your last point about the club not understanding. They seem to be consistently clueless as to what people want out of the club. Thinking about your ref to that FACT pr gaff. If as they maintained at the time they felt absolved, then why hesitate? Take KK to court and prove him wrong. If you prove him wrong you win back the good will of thousands at a stroke and save money. Not sure if it would pan out like that in reality tbh.

I wouldn't say total losses of £34 million are sustainable no, just like the £20M loss made in 2000 wasn't. But losses like that come from a club that's used to competing at the top end, with top players missing out on the big payout that comes from playing in Europe. Not from a small growth in interest repayments. When it happened in the past, suitable action was taken (new manager, new players) and we went on to qualify the following year. Why do you keep asking about other owners that lend money to their clubs? What is your point? ...and why do you need to be so rude? Have I been curt with you at some point? It's not just a case of getting in new players, the club is desperate to get it's act together on the financial side of things and it finally looks like it is being pulled around, my own opinion on the subject is that Newcastle is one of the biggest clubs in the Country which is shown by the massive turnover the club brings in however that isn't much good if you're losing £20 million a season on top of that. If they can turn it around which they look like doing then we will come out of it in a far stronger position at the end of it and I'm prepared to live with the short term shit if this is the case. The point about what other club owners put in is a valid one, once the club is on stable footing financially I'm hoping that the money Ashley has been putting in to cover costs will be switched to going into the transfer kitty, add that to the money that the club will hopefully be making rather than losing and it has the potential to be a bright future, with only a handful of club owners willing to put their hand in their own pocket it should make us much better off than the majority of the Premiership. As for being being rude, if you want to have a serious football debate then I'm happy to do it, if you're going to start calling me son and claiming you've handed my arse to me like you did over the past few days then don't expect such a warm reply. But I'm older than you kidda. I can't agree that spending within your means is the route to success. You borrow, spend big and use the rewards you reap to keep paying off the cost of getting there and staying there. It's what Villa have done and succeeded (so far). It's what Spurs have done and failed (so far). It's been repeatedly stated, but in the top 10.... Man U £453 million in debt from bank borrowings - over half of the entire Premier League's total borrowings from banks - and £152 million in debt from other loans. Liverpool had a debt of £43 million in bank borrowings, and £13 million in other loans Chelsea have the biggest debt. At the end of the 2006/07 season Chelsea had a net borrowing of £620 million Villa recorded £63 million of debt in the summer of 2007. Arsenal have the third highest debt. At the end of 2006/07 their net borrowings stood at £268 million, with the second highest loans balances in the country Everton failed to raise enough revenue to cancel out their wage bill during 2006/07, and in fact were left with a deficit of £8.1 million Wigan sustained a £14 million deficit in 2007 as their revenue did not match their wages even closely. They are squarely in the "danger level" of cost management. Fulham are £182 million in debt. West Ham have £142 million of debt Man City are £103 million debt. It's not about having debt though because not all debt is bad, an example is that when we extended the ground we had the stadium debt to pay off but the extra revenue will more than cover what we had to pay back plus leave us with more left over to be used on improving the club, the problem is when you have debt but are making huge losses to go with it, the club has lost over £50 million between 2006 and 2008 without making any sort of extravagant signings in that time, so trying to compare our situation to that of Man Utd who turn over £50 million profits a season or Arsenal who turn over £30 million profits is pointless. Villa are an interesting example because any debt they do have (I'll take your word for the £63 million debt) is because of what they've spent on players since Lerner has been there, fair play to him of course but he did take over a debt free club which he bought on the cheap, according to Doug Ellis Lerner looked at buying us and Everton but was put off by the amounts of debt attached to both, perhaps he realised that any money he put in (in the form of a loan which shows as debt, like Ashley, Gibson and Abramovich have done) could go in to improving the first team rather than balancing the books which is what put him off here. I'm not going to bother going into detail about other clubs because I'm not going to pretend that I know what their situations are, what I do know is that in 18 months from now if we can be classed as being debt free (apart from what we owe Ashley that he seems happy to get back when he sells the club) make a profit of £10-£15 million every season as well as what Ashley is prepared to put in on top then we will be in a stronger position than the majority of Premiership clubs with a model that is both sustainable and make us richer than than other clubs. That's not to say that I'm happy to see us kicking around in the bottom half because I'm not and I put in a lot of time and money to watch this shite, however I do understand what he's trying to achieve and I think he can do it in the long run and for that reason I will still keep giving up my time and money to support my club. Admirable support Baggio, I just hope that at some point they will actually look to invest this money once the books are balanced. Can't say I'd blame fans for giving up their season tickets at the prospect of watching more dross like this season with Kinnear at the helm for another two years.

No one can gag Keegan unless he agrees to it, and the only way he will settle quietly is if his case isn't watertight (which it obviously isn't). A settlement is an agreement between the two parts, so Keegan will of course have to agree to it. But you have no reason to assume Keegan will accept it only if his case isn't watertight. They may chose to pay him more in a settlement than he could expect from a court case, rather than risking a PR disaster, and Keegan might think money is worth more than publicly humiliating the people at the club. We don't know. But basically, a settlement means the club think they may have more to lose by letting the case go public, and that Keegan think he has no more to win, or small chance of it, by taking it further. Interesting opinion. One that just seems to pluck any possibility out of thin air with no regard to how probable it is in reality. Do you have experience of employment litigation issues? To be offering such wildly improbable scenarios i'd hazard not. "Lets give him 12m out of court so we dont have to give him 9m in court". Genius. I'm not sure it's worth even debating this issue with people who's minds are already made up. I think Llambias should also have mentioned the possibility that the transfer kitty could be boosted by £2m if the club won the case against Keegan. It seems unnecessarily defensive to be talking about the case as if Keegan is going to win it even if it isn't likely to be anything like £8m.

Exactly. A court case will also make the facts of the situation public, whereas a settlement will come with a gag order for Keegan. No one can gag Keegan unless he agrees to it, and the only way he will settle quietly is if his case isn't watertight (which it obviously isn't).

The theory is brilliant and very wise - impossible to argue with. As you rightly question though (when asking about Kinnear), are the football decisions being made as wisely because they have to balance the good business plan with making sure what happens on the pitch keeps the club in the top level as well. Neglect the first team and the rest is near enough pointless. Agree. Also an under performing first team will lead to a hole being blown in the gate/season ticket revenue. The real issue I have with all this is the fact that we seem to be expected to believe that Kinnear is the man to implement this vision onto the pitch. I find it hard to use the words "vision" and "Kinnear" in the same sentence tbh. FWIW I don't think the 2008/2009 version of Keegan was the man for this type of plan either. It looks like we will be run on tight financial restraints for the next couple of years so that's probably why Ashley is so keen to keep Joe on board, hiring a high profile manager will only lead to discontent whenhe finds his hands tied in the transfer market. I assume Ashley must have budgeted for falling attendances as fans decide they don't want to watch a transitional Newcastle which will be aiming for survival in the Premier for a couple of seasons.

I haven't read through all five pages yet so I might be missing some crucial information but Keegan is only going to get that sort of compensation if he can prove his case fairly convincingly. If he does then Ashley will need to explain how such a costly mistake was made by the club.

It als makes me wonder why won't anyone else buy the club? What is wrong with these people?

I totally agree, my post related to Baggio's comment that no other owners funded their club to £10m a year out of their own pocket. I think that's bollocks. I personally dont know how debts are structured at other clubs. Boro are over 70m in debt, wonder how much Gibson 'gave' the club? (just deleted another post, apologies if quoted, realised i was actually incorrect). I'm not about to start sifting through other clubs accounts. If someone can prove my statements incorrect, then fine. I fully admit they are speculation based on logical economics. Someone must be servicing that debt at Boro as it certainly isn't going to be covering itself and they won't be getting many more loans from the bank. It's a tit for tat argument, my basic point is that I would bet money Ashley, on an ongoing basis, is not putting in a great deal (or in fact any) more in than the majority of owners in our league. What that means can be argued all night. I wouldn't want to be in a 'boro fan's shoes right now. Chairman of the Century Steve Gibson spent shitloads on trying to keep up with the glamour clubs and at the end of it all they are heading for relegation, empty stands and a £75m debt. Not the best club to use as an argument for borrowing in the hope of future success.

:lol: £10M budget and Joe Kinnear in charge. Arsenal and Villa must be shitting thaself. Isn't the £10 million what he's prepared to put in? Not sure how many other clubs owners are prepared to stick their hand in their pocket to finance their clubs. He is loaning newcastle the money ain't he, with zero interest? alternatively there is always the possibility that he has no other choice. "While the club made a profit of £8million during the transfer window, Ashley has insisted that all incoming signings are paid for up front. The norm in football is for clubs to make and receive staged payments for players" The clearest sign for me that he still wants to sell. He is looking for ongoing transparency in the accounts so as not to put off buyers. Something he has learnt from personal experience. The best case scenario is that he expects a buyer to be found in the summer once Premiership status has been assured hopefully. If there is still no one willing to put the money down and take over the club then Ashley' s way is the only way like it or complain bitterly about it while paying £10 per head for the privelege. FYP FYP

Hope the rest of the squad share that motivation, probably Kinnear's redeeming quality is he's probably a popular figure if a bit clueless about modern football.

:lol: £10M budget and Joe Kinnear in charge. Arsenal and Villa must be shitting thaself. Isn't the £10 million what he's prepared to put in? Not sure how many other clubs owners are prepared to stick their hand in their pocket to finance their clubs. He is loaning newcastle the money ain't he, with zero interest? alternatively there is always the possibility that he has no other choice. "While the club made a profit of £8million during the transfer window, Ashley has insisted that all incoming signings are paid for up front. The norm in football is for clubs to make and receive staged payments for players" The clearest sign for me that he still wants to sell. He is looking for ongoing transparency in the accounts so as not to put off buyers. Something he has learnt from personal experience. The best case scenario is that he expects a buyer to be found in the summer once Premiership status has been assured hopefully. If there is still no one willing to put the money down and take over the club then Ashley' s way is the only way like it or lump it.

That would be handy if we were actually buying players.

It does seem pretty obvious that the club balance sheet comes above everything else including the strength of the first team squad. It's the mirror opposite of Fat Fred's reckless pursuit of glory by mortgaging the future by spending everything up front. Interesting that we expect to pay out compensation to Keegan seeing as the contract he signed was loaded in the club's favour whereby he had to pay us £2m if he quit. Look's like contracts and signatures don't mean as much as being as good as your word even in this day and age. Fair play to Kev and up yours Ashley and chums if he gets his money.

It's not the reduction in price that people are complaining about.

It's unbelievable that the club haven't even considered how this will look to the rest of the football world. Here we have a small time manager who has been out of football for years due to heart trouble, he comes to Newcastle in a temporary role and ends up needing a heart bypass. Yet we are talking about him carrying on the job once he's recovered! It's staggering tbh. A complete fucking joke.

We might not be able to attract a world class manager but we could have a go at attracting an up and coming manager like Martinez. There are probably even top notch managers who would come under the right circumstances, the likes of Fatih Terim for example. Mike Ashley gives me the impression he needs a bloke he could have a pint with though, so I don't see any foreign appointments in the near future.

Of course they would but how could that happen right now? It needs to happen before next season begins. I think Ashley will have a job on his hands convincing anyone it will even if he genuinely intends to make it happen.

Yep. First time he's done it. He looks like he's carrying too much weight though. That might be worth a fine if he can't get it down. Don't know if it's a weight problem but he runs like an old man. That might have something to do with the mis-timed tackle as well. He might have lost his bearings due to early senile dementia.

It's not stupidity on Kinnear's part, quite the opposite. He has no business managing a Premiership club, he'd basically be an average sort of manager in the lower divisions truth be told, and deep down he probbaly knows that. In his wildest dreams he can't have imagined he'd ever get the chance to manage a Premiership club again, and he'll hang on for dear life to the opportunity as long as he can. If that requires he tow the line and do what he's told by the guys in charge, not a problem. I reckon he'd suck Llambias off to keep the job if that's what was asked of him, because once he's gone from Newcastle he'll never have a job like it again. Shambles. The only question is why that contract remains unsigned. Nice one. Hang your hat on that then, it's the only thing left.

I think people would rather pay more for their season tickets if it meant getting a proper manager and investing more in the squad.

and he did this because 2 vital strikers were passed fit to start for him for the first time, meaning we had 3 very good strikers to attack with. his methods didnt just "click" suddenly. did we attack teams in the same manner with smith, ameobi and owen upfront? no, we didnt. dude, you're starting to annoy me with the repetitiveness of this now...i agree with you in the sense that when we had those three things clicked and he changed the system to accommodate, and it worked very well what was the alternative before they came back? what would a better manager have done with the tools at his disposal? only thing i can see is throw in untested bairns in the hope they'd do better than duff/smith etc... what else could have have done with such s****? which, again, is my entire point. the thread (i think) is bashing somebody because the football we're playing isnt great but with all the players missing what are people expecting? we looked s*** last year before martins and viduka came back so, like you say, how else can we attack teams with any potency without our best 3 strikers? if we get owen, martins and viduka (and possibly barton) all fit and playing we'll look infinitely better, like we did last year. It's not a bashing thread, more of a questioning one of where are we going? Not now, but come next season. Will we look to bring in a highly rated manager who will build a squad over the next couple of years that will play attractive progressive football? Or will we look to hire a cheap coach who will toe the line and buy hard working players who will graft out a result and try and keep us out of relegation trouble? I'm asking because it's undeniable that Kinnear was offered a two year contract extension. How does that sit with the expectations of last summer when Keegan was downplaying Ashley's aims of a top four place, saying we could aim for top eight maybe? Only the board can answer that in May, the decisions they make will tell us a lot. Good post. I would like to think we will bring in a highly rated manager playing attractive football but I cant see such a manager coming here with the current footballing set up (i.e. without full control over transfers and in all likelihood with little funding available) There will be funds available according to Llambias, the money raised from Given and N'Zogbia, plus we should be losing a few highly paid wasters at the end of the season. Someone on TT claims to be ITK that Steve Bruce is coming here in May, read what you want into that.