TRon

I wonder if Smith is getting picked because he runs around a lot? He is definitely shit no doubt, but in a relegation battle you need all your players to run non-stop. I don't think many of our team do.

and the fact they are playing shit. Not that we can talk like, but it's true anyway.

It really is time to stand up and be counted. We've played the Man U's, Arsenal's and Liverpools where we expected little and got less. Next monday brings the first head to head against fellow struggling wankers. This is where the questions will be asked of our squad. This is where capitulation after conceding won't be accepted. On a positive note, we've generally played better against the crap sides since Keegan took over. Let's hope the players can at least show something at this sub-standard level.

To be honest, I think that even terminally self-centred spackers like Barton must have realised by now that the Geordie support is second to none. Even at home, where the atmosphere is sometimes lacking, against Blackburn we were great. It isn't going to be the supporters who will be found wanting over the final furlong. We need the players to fight for 90 mins. as well.

Only goals are going to keep us up the way we are defending. Martins has to start, the only question should be whether Owen starts with him. IMO he should.

On the flip side, what if some Italian B player ahd seperated Rooney's foot from his ankle? Would we still say nothing should have happened? Ronaldo winking during the Euros was hard enough to take during the Euros remember.

For once, that's the least of my worries.

the fact that it's a derby has nowt to do with it...in seasons when we are the better team we get a result. in the seasons when they've been the better team they get the result...form works in these games and for all our form is poor they have yet to win away and have only 3 draws.....result...draw or home win. I did say a derby with relegation at stake though. That brings a different pressure into play. Then it becomes a question whether we can rise above it. I think we will, but then I didn't think we'd look so bad against them at their place under Allardyce.

Either a draw or a win for us. 9 times out of 10 I'd say we beat them at home, but this is a derby, with relegation at stake. If we can play with confidence and rise above the fear then we'll win. 2-1 to us I think.

i go along with most of that but i think we have may chance picking up a point at west ham and portsmouth than getting anything against chelsea. birmingham is winnable on blackburn form. im optimistic (if i had to bet i'd bet on us staying up.....and i've bet against us on several occasions...fuck off with the booing, money is season ticket money)and not making a noose yet. West ham is a winnable game, definitely there's at least a point there for the taking. Their form is terrible and confidence wise they are not much better than us. Portsmouth might just be too strong for us to physically cope with.

The significant mistake, amidst all the transfer strategy cautiousness delivered by Mort & Ashley which has already been cited, which may well bring about our relegation. That mistake is the one that counts the most. That one month will go down as a 'not to do' blueprint for other clubs to go by. If we survive the drop, and if Keegan isn't sufficiently backed - surely promises must've have been made when considering the manner in which Keegan originally left - in the Summer as far as i'm concerned Ashley can bring in the scaffolders have them remove his "...... Direct" advertising and sell-up & bugger off, sooner rather than later that is. *Yet some many people still can't see the point. I guess 'not being Freddy Shepherd' is one factor, along with all the other stuff ie. Ashley's "i stand as the leader of Toon Army - i bleed as they do" warcry in the press and by getting down & dirty in the terraces and generally coming across as your everyday grassroots supporter.... and the debt reduction issue is also a relevant point, which weighs in Ashley & Mort's favour at the minute. This idea that because we couldn't buy in the January transfer window, we have endangered the club's Premier future sounds damning, but when you look at the actual circumstances it was perfectly understandable. The money wasn't going to be released to Allardyce because we didn't want to buy any more Smiths, Bartons or Nolans etc. He was sacked for abysmal results during an easy early fixture list (KK's now suffering the consequences). Keegan couldn't get in the players he wanted in a very short space of time, and here we are. What could we have done differently? Kept Allardyce which would have meant starting again in the summer. Is that the argument? not making excuse after excuse for not recognising a serous situation and putting the club in danger of relegation would be a start. Quite amazing the hypocrisy on here. People slating Shepherd for not splashing cash every time we lose, then complaining about debts and saying Ashley did right not to waste money on a team in relegation trouble. Then we have the sacking of a manager at a "bad time", where the last regime was absolutely slaughtered for it. It would really appear that being a fat bastard who eats all the pies is the ultimate crime, and you can get away with anything else. So your objections are 1) That Allardyce was sacked at a bad time, meaning you must believe that appointing Keegan was a mistake, seeing as Allardyce should still be boss in your own words. In which case: 2) Allardyce should have been given serious money to spend in January, regardless of the fact he wasted £18m on Smith, Enrique and Barton? This is where you're reasoning seems to be leading. Fair enough but your hypocrisy is astounding as you were more than happy enough at the time when Keegan was appointed. Once again people making arguments armed with shitloads of hindsight. Hindsight in what exactly ? I have ALWAYS said there is no such thing as a "bad time" to boot out a manager who has to go, nor is there any such thing as a "bad time" to appoint a new one if he's the right man. Look through my posts if you don't believe me. This is absolutely proven by the fact that I disagreed with loads of people who constantly moaned on about the fat bastard getting his timing wrong, and other such bollocks, see Allardyce having all the summer to "plan", the new board having all summer to "plan" [which a huge amount of people insisted would see us in good stead this season. You tell me what has happened. So much for "timing" and "planning". Yes I'm happy with Keegan. If he stays. No I'm not happy with the comments coming out of Ashleys mouthpiece which seem to be saying that the club are operating a sell to buy policy, and appear to be hoping that we are going to find the best young players all over the world before anybody else and win loads of trophies in 10 years time when they all become the new Gazza. Aye, right. mackems.gif The club failed to respond to an increasingly serious predicament ie a looming relegation battle, whereby Ashleys mouthpiece said a month or so before the transfer deadline that if the club buys any players they would be players for the future. If YOU can't see these points, its YOUR problem, but continue slating the fat bastard for eating all the pies while the replacements struggle to match the results, european qualifications and league positions the club gained under the old regime and continuing to delude yourself they are "better" just because you don't like the fat bastard. Basically, they aren't as good as the old board until they have proved it by virtue of those european and Champions League qualifications. This is not rocket science. Neither is the fact that they have so far shown only a distinct lack of awareness of what it takes to do it. Do you always talk out of both sides of your mouth? Nice party trick pretty staightforward really, its the personnel that count not the timing. I thought I'd made it clear enough but obviously you aren't even bright enough to understand that. Nice of you to - predictably - ignore the rest of the post, being factual information that doesn't suit your "opinion" I'm just talking about this season and how to determine if Ashley and Mort have failed the real test which is the point of the thread which is why I said so if you can answer by showing how you would prefer it to have been done we can mve forward.

If you use the search button you will see that I've not said we deserve to go down at all, so please don't make out I said things that I didn't. Btw are you saying we wouldn't be in a relegation scrap if Allardyce had stayed? I don't think we would Baggio. Without the big upheaval we may have got players in, SA had identified targets, even saying so in a press confrence the day of his sacking. It's too late now though. The change happened and we *have* to get behind the lads. It's Allardyce wasting money on the likes of Smith and Barton that has put us in the s*** in the first place, who honestly trusts him with any more money? After the money he wasted I dread to think what sort of player he'd target, we were linked with Kevin Nolan iirc. As for us not being in a relegation battle, which of the teams have we played since he left do you think we would have picked up more points from if he were still here? I think his dire brand of football would have collected more points, yes. In which games? Bolton (w), Boro(w), Blackburn(D) But I don't see the point in speculating like this I could see us floating around 11th. Worth considering all the same. Only to support an argument which is hypothetical in the first place. It's like saying if we were to play against Liverpool at home under Allardyce, there's no way we'd get pounded 3-0 where the score could be double figures. In fact that's exactly what happened shocking though it seems.

Ashley hedged with Sam, but as he'd just been appointed manager by Shepherd, it would have been unrealistic to sack him immediately. It was common sense to give him a chance, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. He was backed with money in the summer as well. We bought Barton, Smith and Enrique for significant money, despite being handicapped by having to clear off so much debt in such a short space of time. Big Sam went on record as saying how grateful he was to have been given the backing iirc. At this point let's not forget, relegation was not in anybody's mind. The reason given for sacking Allardyce in January was to give the new manager time to assess the squad in readiness for next season. What good would it have done to kept Allardyce as manager in limbo? Are there any guarantees he would have got better results?

Depends how we play i expect us to loose but that doesnt give them an excuse not to play well or to register a shot on goal. It doesnt mean we should go there and get battered which will get a reaction on here. On the other hand we could play decent for 10 minutes and some poeple say it is encouraging even f we still loose 4-0 If we approach the game in a way which suggests we don't expect to lose - by that I mean keeping our shape and discipline for 90 mins, I wouldn't have any arguments whatever the result. They have better players so they would be expected to win, but worse teams than us have got results there, so if you set up right and play well it can be done.

The significant mistake, amidst all the transfer strategy cautiousness delivered by Mort & Ashley which has already been cited, which may well bring about our relegation. That mistake is the one that counts the most. That one month will go down as a 'not to do' blueprint for other clubs to go by. If we survive the drop, and if Keegan isn't sufficiently backed - surely promises must've have been made when considering the manner in which Keegan originally left - in the Summer as far as i'm concerned Ashley can bring in the scaffolders have them remove his "...... Direct" advertising and sell-up & bugger off, sooner rather than later that is. *Yet some many people still can't see the point. I guess 'not being Freddy Shepherd' is one factor, along with all the other stuff ie. Ashley's "i stand as the leader of Toon Army - i bleed as they do" warcry in the press and by getting down & dirty in the terraces and generally coming across as your everyday grassroots supporter.... and the debt reduction issue is also a relevant point, which weighs in Ashley & Mort's favour at the minute. This idea that because we couldn't buy in the January transfer window, we have endangered the club's Premier future sounds damning, but when you look at the actual circumstances it was perfectly understandable. The money wasn't going to be released to Allardyce because we didn't want to buy any more Smiths, Bartons or Nolans etc. He was sacked for abysmal results during an easy early fixture list (KK's now suffering the consequences). Keegan couldn't get in the players he wanted in a very short space of time, and here we are. What could we have done differently? Kept Allardyce which would have meant starting again in the summer. Is that the argument? not making excuse after excuse for not recognising a serous situation and putting the club in danger of relegation would be a start. Quite amazing the hypocrisy on here. People slating Shepherd for not splashing cash every time we lose, then complaining about debts and saying Ashley did right not to waste money on a team in relegation trouble. Then we have the sacking of a manager at a "bad time", where the last regime was absolutely slaughtered for it. It would really appear that being a fat bastard who eats all the pies is the ultimate crime, and you can get away with anything else. So your objections are 1) That Allardyce was sacked at a bad time, meaning you must believe that appointing Keegan was a mistake, seeing as Allardyce should still be boss in your own words. In which case: 2) Allardyce should have been given serious money to spend in January, regardless of the fact he wasted £18m on Smith, Enrique and Barton? This is where you're reasoning seems to be leading. Fair enough but your hypocrisy is astounding as you were more than happy enough at the time when Keegan was appointed. Once again people making arguments armed with shitloads of hindsight. Hindsight in what exactly ? I have ALWAYS said there is no such thing as a "bad time" to boot out a manager who has to go, nor is there any such thing as a "bad time" to appoint a new one if he's the right man. Look through my posts if you don't believe me. This is absolutely proven by the fact that I disagreed with loads of people who constantly moaned on about the fat bastard getting his timing wrong, and other such bollocks, see Allardyce having all the summer to "plan", the new board having all summer to "plan" [which a huge amount of people insisted would see us in good stead this season. You tell me what has happened. So much for "timing" and "planning". Yes I'm happy with Keegan. If he stays. No I'm not happy with the comments coming out of Ashleys mouthpiece which seem to be saying that the club are operating a sell to buy policy, and appear to be hoping that we are going to find the best young players all over the world before anybody else and win loads of trophies in 10 years time when they all become the new Gazza. Aye, right. mackems.gif The club failed to respond to an increasingly serious predicament ie a looming relegation battle, whereby Ashleys mouthpiece said a month or so before the transfer deadline that if the club buys any players they would be players for the future. If YOU can't see these points, its YOUR problem, but continue slating the fat bastard for eating all the pies while the replacements struggle to match the results, european qualifications and league positions the club gained under the old regime and continuing to delude yourself they are "better" just because you don't like the fat bastard. Basically, they aren't as good as the old board until they have proved it by virtue of those european and Champions League qualifications. This is not rocket science. Neither is the fact that they have so far shown only a distinct lack of awareness of what it takes to do it. Do you always talk out of both sides of your mouth? Nice party trick

Parker maybe had 2 games he did well in that's it. The rest of the time he was shit, to say one is better than the other is bollocks tbh. At least he passed the ball to his own players and kept the ball well, which is the basic requirement of any midfielder. He scored the odd goal as well. Parker was a bits' n pieces player who could do a job, Barton is a liability. Neither good enough, end of.

0? Roeder may never have been a manager that was going to get us challenging back at the top, but he is nowhere near one of the worst managers the Premiership has ever had. Even Souness isn't tbh. They were both bad appointments showing lack of judgement. In context of what's being discussed that's the important part.

Barton does look for the defence splitting pass which is something we need, but his overall ball retention is so bad he can become a liability. In his role, he needs to keep the ball better, and score some goals as well as making the odd cute pass.

If Torres is rested, Babel will probably have a field day instead.

The significant mistake, amidst all the transfer strategy cautiousness delivered by Mort & Ashley which has already been cited, which may well bring about our relegation. That mistake is the one that counts the most. That one month will go down as a 'not to do' blueprint for other clubs to go by. If we survive the drop, and if Keegan isn't sufficiently backed - surely promises must've have been made when considering the manner in which Keegan originally left - in the Summer as far as i'm concerned Ashley can bring in the scaffolders have them remove his "...... Direct" advertising and sell-up & bugger off, sooner rather than later that is. *Yet some many people still can't see the point. I guess 'not being Freddy Shepherd' is one factor, along with all the other stuff ie. Ashley's "i stand as the leader of Toon Army - i bleed as they do" warcry in the press and by getting down & dirty in the terraces and generally coming across as your everyday grassroots supporter.... and the debt reduction issue is also a relevant point, which weighs in Ashley & Mort's favour at the minute. This idea that because we couldn't buy in the January transfer window, we have endangered the club's Premier future sounds damning, but when you look at the actual circumstances it was perfectly understandable. The money wasn't going to be released to Allardyce because we didn't want to buy any more Smiths, Bartons or Nolans etc. He was sacked for abysmal results during an easy early fixture list (KK's now suffering the consequences). Keegan couldn't get in the players he wanted in a very short space of time, and here we are. What could we have done differently? Kept Allardyce which would have meant starting again in the summer. Is that the argument? not making excuse after excuse for not recognising a serous situation and putting the club in danger of relegation would be a start. Quite amazing the hypocrisy on here. People slating Shepherd for not splashing cash every time we lose, then complaining about debts and saying Ashley did right not to waste money on a team in relegation trouble. Then we have the sacking of a manager at a "bad time", where the last regime was absolutely slaughtered for it. It would really appear that being a fat bastard who eats all the pies is the ultimate crime, and you can get away with anything else. So your objections are 1) That Allardyce was sacked at a bad time, meaning you must believe that appointing Keegan was a mistake, seeing as Allardyce should still be boss in your own words. In which case: 2) Allardyce should have been given serious money to spend in January, regardless of the fact he wasted £18m on Smith, Enrique and Barton? This is where you're reasoning seems to be leading. Fair enough but your hypocrisy is astounding as you were more than happy enough at the time when Keegan was appointed. Once again people making arguments armed with shitloads of hindsight.

Surprising. These quick fix deals are usually binned after the trial deal is over. Hopefully he's getting a contract because we like what we've seen, not because we're desperate.

The significant mistake, amidst all the transfer strategy cautiousness delivered by Mort & Ashley which has already been cited, which may well bring about our relegation. That mistake is the one that counts the most. That one month will go down as a 'not to do' blueprint for other clubs to go by. If we survive the drop, and if Keegan isn't sufficiently backed - surely promises must've have been made when considering the manner in which Keegan originally left - in the Summer as far as i'm concerned Ashley can bring in the scaffolders have them remove his "...... Direct" advertising and sell-up & bugger off, sooner rather than later that is. *Yet some many people still can't see the point. I guess 'not being Freddy Shepherd' is one factor, along with all the other stuff ie. Ashley's "i stand as the leader of Toon Army - i bleed as they do" warcry in the press and by getting down & dirty in the terraces and generally coming across as your everyday grassroots supporter.... and the debt reduction issue is also a relevant point, which weighs in Ashley & Mort's favour at the minute. This idea that because we couldn't buy in the January transfer window, we have endangered the club's Premier future sounds damning, but when you look at the actual circumstances it was perfectly understandable. The money wasn't going to be released to Allardyce because we didn't want to buy any more Smiths, Bartons or Nolans etc. He was sacked for abysmal results during an easy early fixture list (KK's now suffering the consequences). Keegan couldn't get in the players he wanted in a very short space of time, and here we are. What could we have done differently? Kept Allardyce which would have meant starting again in the summer. Is that the argument?

The "frightening" thing is that this same topic has been covered before and the timelines were all posted yet once again it seems to be dragged up to slate the way the club is being run, we complain about the press having a go at the club yet we're as good as them at spinning, if not better at times. For some people it's more important to back Fat Fred than their football club. For some people its more important to slate someone off for eating all the pies than to be able to see that running a club who qualify for europe more than every team bar 4 actually means they are doing a decent job of running the football club. Still dont listen do you, i cant believe someone can use a stat which doesnt hold much water considering it doesnt paint the true situation of the club. You conitue to use the 7 european qualifications out of 10 years as opposed to the 4 top 10 finishes in the same 10 years stat, even thought the top 10 finishes show the truer picture for the club. If we were to look at who had the most top 10 finishes for the club in those 10 years, do you think we'd still be the 5th best? Nope. Show much for your ambitious chairman crap. No wonder your "opinions" hold no water on this board when you talkabout "facts" which have no relevant context to the situation and are contrived to fit a silly agenda. If you want to talk about relevance, what relevance is the arbitrary choice of 10th? Top half. Wow. No footballing significance whatsoever. Mid table is much of a muchness, pretty much a lottery where you end up. Oh noes Spurs were better than us because in the 8 years they finished mid table they came 9th twice and 10th twice, but in the 6 years we came mid table the best we did was 11th! If you want to talk about relevance you have to talk about relevant achievements. Qualifying for Europe is a relevant achievement. It's a hell of a lot harder to get a team into the top 4 (which we did 5 times under the previous board) than it is to win the also-ran pissing contest in the middle. Never mind, we'll be great now we're under new management, and thank god we didn't waste any money on players in January eh? You must be well chuffed about that. Only if they were complete idiots. You didn't did you? The success under the previous boards was never under-appreciated, especially while Freddie Fletcher and John Hall were still on board, but the appointments of Souness and Roeder showed a complete lack of judgement and football knowledge. There were other daft diversions as well, like spending all summer chasing Rooney then failing to sign anyone else when it all fell through. Shepherd vetoed too many good targets then replaced them with inferior playes. Anelka could have come if we'd pushed hard enough while he was in Turkey. Robson was refused Miguel because Shepherd wouldn't back him, and instead we got Carr. For someone who supposedly backed his managers Shepherd interfered quite a lot. oh dear. Coming from someone who is slating the old board for overspending, and defending the new board for underspending, I hope you see the irony in this but I don't expect you to. To be fair, I can think of a few others just like you mackems.gif I assume you can read, but anyway, over-spending or under-spending wasn't the key part of my last post. It was about wise judgements and good decisions as Chairman.

it's funny how NE5 wants to associate Fat Fred with Chairman Hall, during the successful period, but wants to blame Hall for the shite decisions made by Shepherd when he was made Chairman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/w/west_ham_utd/6706955.stm Parker was sold to West Ham on the 6th of June, we then happen to raise whatever our intial offer was for Barton and it gets accepted in the process - ie. to match West Ham's bid: and West Ham were looking to buy 2 central midfielders at the time - and this took place after Parker's outgoing transfer was finalised. We eventually sign Barton a week later. The timeline backs up this opinion imo, that is from even getting from first to second base - getting to the stage where City let us through the door and allowed us to the talk to the player in question. Mick's point, backed up by his link of course, is still a moot one. It was worrying at the time to see the board waiting on incoming funds, rather than knocking the ambitious Hammers right of the water from the get-go, before getting back in the ball-park. Closely resembles a 'finance through sales/sell to buy' transfer policy to me. Cheers. Just about the only transfer that stands on it's own - ie. one that wasn't financed by one major outgoing transfer, or through the sell-offs of bits & pieces or bit-part players - was the Smith transfer, and even that went on the back of a period of inactivity while the cautious buggers up top scoured over the books - something they should've down prior to buying SJH's shareholding...... all the while Allardyce's alleged targets slipped through the net, and i'm sure this is the transfer which Mick alluded to as being the deal that dependant on the book-end sales of Parker & Dyer at both ends of the transfer window. Despite the shambolic happenings pertaining to January there seems to be quite a bit of resolute defending of Ashley & Mort going on here. I have a sneaking suspicion this might be the case simply because they're not Freddy Shepherd. or it might be they put their money where their mouth is.