Mick

I think it does. He mentioned it as being a bad buy, I think it was a brilliant buy, he was massive, authoritive, agile and dominating. Did you see him, if you disagree ? Clearly Mick didn't see him. But then again, for some people Lee falls into the category that Shepherd does, ie because Lee sold MacDonald he couldn't do anything right. Thats all there is to it really, unfortunately selling MacDonald was proved to be the correct decision and when he left, Everton went on to enjoy 4 seasons of what would now be regular Champions League football, and leaving behind the players for Kendall that I named earlier, while our unhappy players were sold by McGarry and we went down for 6 years. And unlike the crap in that toonarama piece, that is all fact. Waiting for Mick to now be adult enough to give us factual answers to the questions he has been posed by myself, HTL and NE15. McGarry sold unhappy players? I didn't like McGarry one bit but he was right to get rid of the players who thought they were bigger than the club. These players who thought they should tell the club who we should have as manager. Were they right to do this? yet you thought Souness wrong to sell Bellamy [at least you get something right sometimes] And what about Gullit and Shearer, do you also think that we should have sold Shearer and backed Gullit ? More double standards and hypocrisy. I thought Souness engineered the Bellamy situation and that Bellamy was stupid enough to fall for it. I blame Shepherd for appointing Souness in the first place and I blame Shepherd for not doing anything when his manager went in front of the cameras before Bellamy did to let everyone know what was happening, he should have been screwed to the wall for that, yes. I don't blame him for not letting Bellamy think he was bigger than the club if that's what he thought, nobody is and that includes both Shepherd and Souness, two people who this thread isn't about. Personally, I'd have been happy at the time for Gullit to sell Shearer because Shearer did look as if he thought he was bigger than the club. Shearer didn't play for the club in my opinion, he couldn't be bothered, I'm not saying that it was deliberate, that's not something I could know.

Cheeky twat.

This is fast becoming pointless, this is the last time I'll repeat this here, you knocked the style of football played under Keegan, you did it by having a go at the "crash bang wallop" style before Lee arrived. I know you've stuck up for Keegan but he played "crash bang wallop" football as you call it, his approach was if they score three, we'll score four and you can't deny it, he was all out attack and we all loved it, the thing is, you're now using that against Joe Harvey in an attempt to make Lee look good. I have no problem with your opinion on Roger Jones, I don't share it but that's life, my memory of him was a good first game then the next time I saw him was a game against Man U when he picked the ball out of the net 4 times. If Toonarama got Tony Green right, maybe you've got Gordon Lee wrong, maybe they are also right about Macdonald and Gordon Lee. If the fans didn't like Macdonald, why did so many turn up against Arsenal when he played against us? Why did 10,000 turn up for that one game and not turn up the season before or the next season when we played Arsenal but he was injured so didn't play? Why is this game against Arsenal the only game that season with a 10,000 gate increase? I've answered why Lee left, try reading the answer, you can repeat the question, I'll only answer it once. As for players striking, they wanted Dinnis as manager you know that so why are you asking, did you actually go to matches at that time or do you only read it in books? Gordon Lee had one end of season at Newcastle, we were 15th in the league, fact. How is it pedantic? As you say we were 9th when Lee left, anything could have happened if he had stayed, including another 15th finish.

I think it does. He mentioned it as being a bad buy, I think it was a brilliant buy, he was massive, authoritive, agile and dominating. Did you see him, if you disagree ? Clearly Mick didn't see him. But then again, for some people Lee falls into the category that Shepherd does, ie because Lee sold MacDonald he couldn't do anything right. Thats all there is to it really, unfortunately selling MacDonald was proved to be the correct decision and when he left, Everton went on to enjoy 4 seasons of what would now be regular Champions League football, and leaving behind the players for Kendall that I named earlier, while our unhappy players were sold by McGarry and we went down for 6 years. And unlike the crap in that toonarama piece, that is all fact. Waiting for Mick to now be adult enough to give us factual answers to the questions he has been posed by myself, HTL and NE15. McGarry sold unhappy players? I didn't like McGarry one bit but he was right to get rid of the players who thought they were bigger than the club. These players who thought they should tell the club who we should have as manager. Were they right to do this?

Did the players revolt have anything to do with the way Gordon Lee had them as his inner circle? He openly talked with players like Gowling and Micky Burns about other players, he did it in front of the players they were talking about. What sort of man-management is that?

Roger Jones played 5 or 6 games but was injured twice, in those 5 or 6 games you could see enough in him to claim that he's the best keeper you've seen at Newcastle, talk about knee-jerk. I don't remember the Leazes ever singing "Gordon we love you", you've said this before and have not been able to back it up so I'll just go off what I can remember and I was in the Leazes end about half way up behind the goal. I didn't have to correct you about the last game being the Man City game, I questioned what this had to do with the size of the crowd considering nobody knew he'd resigned apart from the directors and players. Regarding Toonarama, I agree about Keeley and Bird although Alex Bruce was hardly given a chance and he didn't look that bad when he got a game, he looked a tidy player. As for not talking about that web site, fair enough, I'm not surprised in the slightest that you don't want to mention it considering it goes against your opinion. Gordon Lee only finished 1 season at Newcastle, we finished 15th in the league, we never qualified for Europe with him as manager, as you like to say, FACT. Lee said he left Newcastle to be with his Family in Lancashire, later on he said it was because Newcastle had no ambition, the pay rise had noting to do with him going to Everton. I mentioned Keegan because you knocked the style of football played under him, you did it by having a go at the "crash bang wallop" style before Lee arrived, when did Keegan preach possession football? The gates were reducing before we sold any of Waddle, Beardsley and Gazza, do you know that the club could afford to keep these players? I don't, I'm not saying that they couldn't as a fact, I'm saying that the club may not have been able to afford it, do you think crowds of 26,228, 23,434, 24,750, 21,038, 22,810, 21,525 were big enough to afford them and then spend a load of cash keeping them happy? Before you start going on about us now having 52,000 crowds, remember what NE15 said, we were one of the best supported clubs at that time in the country, did that mean we were successful?

That wasn't a rant at all, if you can read then you would have noticed that it was a copy and paste job from Toonarama, I even added a link and it backs up what I was saying about what people thought of Gordon Lee but it is better for your view of things if it looks like they were my words. The ability to read would also show that I had answered all of the questions that NE15 and HTL asked, at least I think I have. Also, I wasn't asked any questions about the transfer fee of Goddard and Simpson, learn to read and you will see that I agreed with what Steve had said about Goddard costing £415k so why would he question me? I did go to games, you're so arrogant, it just doesn't suit your argument as I have a different view to yours, it's a view held by plenty of others and the Toonarama view just backs that up. You say the fans were chanting for him to stay, I can't ever remember that happening, his resignation would not have bumped the crowd up if the Toonarama version of events is correct when they say "Within weeks he had resigned, helpfully informing the players the morning of the FA Cup tie at home to Man City." I can't remember anything about his resignation until afterwards, you'll no doubt give your opinion that we all knew and you'll try to pass it off as fact. As for me preferring to have a number 9 to hang my hat on in preference to having a good, successful team. Again it's you twisting my words, I said I preferred the football that we played while we had Macdonald, you also go on about the two different styles of football, the one you run down is the style Keegan brought to Newcastle and the style you seem quite happy to have watched under him, is this double standards? Were you screaming for "controlled possession" football, rather than "crash bang wallop"? It's good to see that Roger Jones made such an impression on you that he became the best keeper you had ever seen play for Newcastle while playing how many games?

I suppose one of the reasons was we were known at a cup side since winning the FA Cup 3 times in the 50's and winning the Fairs Cup. oh my god :obi: Well you explain why we had a crowd of 28,954 against Man City in the league and 45,300 against the same team a few weeks earlier in the 4th round of the FA Cup during 1977. Why did we get 29,344 against a small club like Wrexham in the 4th round of the FA Cup in 1978 then only get 28,933 against Everton in the league a few weeks later and 20,256 against Man City 4 days after Everton. Or 1975, Notts County in the League Cup with a gate of 31,114 and only 26,152 to see us play Ipswich at home in the league during the same month. Let's have your words of wisdom to explain that. Here's something about the wonderful Gordon Lee http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mickzoe/managers/glee.html The Glee Club? The article "Domestic Distress" revealed that in terms of results achieved Gordon Lee is one of the most succesful managers in the club's history. In his first season at the club (1975/76) he guided them to the League Cup Final and the Sixth Round of the FA Cup; and in the following season he guided them into the top six of the first division; the first time the club had reached such heady heights since the 1950's Yet he is also one of the most unpopular managers to sit in the St. James' hot seat. Why? Because he sold the star players and replaced them with also-rans, he encouraged negative football and he walked out on the club when he was offered better money by the Toffeemen In this article we re-evaluate his contribution to the club and offer a startling explanation of the methods behind his apparent madness. Successful Lee? There can be no doubt that Lee's managerial career was comparatively successful His first managerial post was with Port Vale whom he guided to the Third Division in his second season in charge. He spent another 4 seasons in the Midlands but never managed to take the team any higher. At Port Vale money was very scarce and Lee had to rely on free-transfers and homegrown talent, but as he proudly stated; "I have players who would literally dive through a brick wall for Port Vale" In January 1974 he took over from Ken Furphy at Blackburn and guided them to the Third Division championship in the following season. The United board were sufficiently impressed to ask him to take over from Joe Harvey. The Blackburn board were less impressed and reported United for making an illegal approach; it was to be the start of a long running feud with the Lancastrians. In his first season on the Toon (1975/76) he steered United to a League Cup Final and the 6th round of the FA Cup and if the club had not been struck with a plague of injury and illness of almost biblical proportions they might have done even better. The League campaign was more disappointing as the team ended 15th (the same position as the last season under Harvey). The sale of Supermac provided the prelude to the following season and the bookies immediately made United favourites for relegation. But after a shaky start the team closed ranks and steadily climbed the table until they reached the dizzy heights of third by the end of November.There were some notable performances including a 1-0 home win over leaders Liverpool and a 2-2 draw at Leeds after which Lee claimed "we showed Leeds how to play football." In January 1977 Lee resigned to take over at Everton and steered them away from the relegation zone and took them through to the League Cup Final and the FA Cup semi-finals The next seasons saw Everton finishing in third and fourth place respectively, but in 1979-1980 season things turned sour and - after months of speculation and a place just above the relegation positions - he was sacked. Lee had further spells as manager of Preston (12/1981 - 12/1983) and Leicester (1/91 - 5/91), but his time had gone and further success eluded him Whatever it takes Lee was from the Alan Durban (if you want entertainment go to a circus) school of management. Even in his first job at Port Vale the "negative" tactics he employed often came in for criticism, but he never apologised for playing "the style that gets results" In 1973 West Ham manager Ron Greenwood accused Port Vale of "diabolical intimidation" in a a cup tie "For the first time in my life, I could relate violence on the field to violence on the terraces. People can say we were lucky. I agree Iucky to come away alive". Lee's response was 'I can only treat the remarks with the contempt they deserve'. When Lee took over at United he derided Newcastle's "crash bang wallop" style of play; believing that to achieve success you needed to play "controlled" posession football. Despite this his first season at United had goals galore and thrills aplenty (indeed United scored more goals than any club in the country). It wasn't until the following season that Lee managed to stamp his personal "style" on the team. The southern press derided Lee's team as "dull and workmanlike" and even some of the local pressmen were critical of the style of play. The fans too were openly critical of the team's new tactics (at least when they did not work). There was no doubt that on their day with their best players available United's were a match for the best in the land, but when players were missing or simply off-form they no longer had any players with the individual brilliance to turn a game. Purge of the Infidels Immediately on joining Lee made it clear what sort of player he wanted at the club. "I have to make sure everybody in the team is working for everybody else. Anyone not prepared to work is out!". So one by one he set about purging the side of the players he considered were not contributing to his team ethic. In reality the players that were moved on represented the "old guard". With the exception of Keeley they were all players who had been at the club a number of years; and nearly all were first-teamers Terry Hibbitt - £100,000 to Birmingham [september 1975] Lee pinpointed Terry Hibbitt as a "troublemaker" and he was out of the door within months of Lee's arrival. Hibbitt found out he was leaving when he finished getting changed after an away match against Derby and found his boots wrapped up in a paper bag on top of a skip. Lee having already negotiated a transfer deal with Birmingham. Alex Bruce - part exchange to preston [september 1975] Bruce had been signed from Preston a couple of years earlier but had failed to break into the side and he was used as a makeweight in the deal that brought John Bird to Tyneside Glen Keeley - £30,000 to Blackburn [August 1976] Keeley was a promising young 21 year old who had established himself in Joe Harvey's last year in charge, but he was rarely given a chance by Lee. He went on to have a notable career at Ewood Park where he played for 11 seasons (many as captain). Pat Howard - £50,000 to Arsenal [september 1976] Centre-back Howard had made more than 250 appearances for the club and was still only 28 when he was sold. United turned down bids from Nottm Forest and Southampton before finally selling him to the Gunners. John Tudor - £30,000 to Stoke [October 1976] Supermac's old strike-partner Tudor was the last of the "old-guard" to be sold. A succession of injuries and the arrival of Gowling limited Tudor to 7(1) appearances during Lee's reign Malcolm Macdonald - £333,333 to Arsenal [July 1976] The sale of Supermac was of course the one that really took the headlines. In reality it had been on the cards since Lee first wandered through the gates at SJP, but it was still a monumental shock when he left Mac and Lee As soon as Lee arrived at the club he made his feelings clear regarding footballing superstars. "Stars are something you see in the sky at night; they're for astrologers" was Lee's oft repeated refrain. "It's like another word people like to use these days, 'flair',. When I hear that word I think of something you light a fire with or the bottom of someone's trousers" Newcastle only had one true star at the time, Supermac In his many autobiographies Macdonald relates why he could not work with Lee. He tells of their first meeting when Lee asked him about Hibbitt the "trouble maker". He talks about the new "joke" training sessions that reminded him of PE lessons he had a school with a female sports mistress. He reveals how angry he was with the way Lee treated his mate Terry Hibbitt. And he also talks about numerous verbal altercations that the pair had. Further, as far as Macdonald was concerned Lee was "jealous" of the relationship Macdonald had with the Newcastle public. Publicly though the pair were putting on a United front. I an interview with Shoot magazine in August 1975 Macdonald stated that in training "the air has been supercharged and there is a completely new enthusiasm among the players since Mr Lee has taken over our coaching sessions" And after the home game with Leicester Lee talked in glowing terms about Macdonald. But in reality their relationship went steadily downhill. Macdonald had been used to special treatment; he had a special relationship with Joe Harvey whereby he "never had to ask for a rise". Lee preferred to favour his own type of player; Gowling, Burns and Nulty forming an inner sanctum at the club. As Macdonald stated later "suddenly we had a players commitee, small meetings in locked rooms and a lot of gossip running throughout the club" Lee actively encouraged other players to voice their opinions about Macdonald and this (according to Gowling) reached a crescendo on the post season tour of Malaysia in 1976 Mac refused to take part in the team picture at the start of the 1976/77 season because "he wouldn't be able to raise a smile" and within days he was off to London to join Arsenal When Lee moved on to Everton he was asked if he would go back to Newcastle for any of his old players. His reply was typically forthright "If they wanted £333,000 for Macdonald, God only knows what they will want for the good players!" Of course Suermac wasn't the only seventies star who failed to impress Gordon. Supermac When manager of Blackburn, Lee described Leeds United's Duncan McKenzie as a ‘piss pot player’. Not surprisingly when they met up again at Everton the player was soon moved on Bargain-less Basement Lee's replacements were all picked up frm the Third and Fourth Divisions. Unfortunately that's where the majority of them belonged. As a consequence his successor "Richard Dinnis" was left with a paper-thin and inadequate squad of players. Disaster was just around the corner Alan Gowling - £75,000 from Huddersfield [August 1975] Twenty Six year old Gowling was rescued from the ailing Yorkshire club that now found itself in the bottom division. He was Lee's first and arguably only successful signing. When he signed him Lee controversially claimed he would outscore Supermac and to everyone's surpise he did just that in 1975/76 scoring 30 goals in 57 appearances whereas Mac managed 24 goals in 53 appearances. However once Mac had left the goals dried up somewhat and he ended with a strike rate of only 33%. He was one of the protaganists in the "player power" of the Dinnis era and the arrival of strict disciplinarian Bill Mcgarry was him moving on to to Bolton in March 1978 with a strike rate of only 33% John Bird - £100,000 from Preston [september 1975] Centre-back Bird was Preston's captain and the move resulted in their manager Bobby Charlton resigning. He had a torrid debut in a 4-0 defeat at Maine Road and faced heavy criticism from media and fans alike during his first season at the club. Dropped by Lee he was disciplined for speaking out in the press. He never fully established himself in the side, but still remained at the club for five seasons Roger Jones - £100,000 from Blackburn [March 1976] Lee went back to his old club to snap up 29 year old goalkeeper Roger Jones. he made 5 appearances during the rest of the season and appeared to be regarded by Lee as his number one. He then suffered a shoulder injury in pre-season training and United claimed that they had been advised by a specialist that the injury was so serious that he would no longer play again. Eventually he joined Stoke on a free in February 1977 and continued playing for another eight seasons A medical misjudgement or something more sinister? United used the injury as an excuse for refusing to cough up the money they owed Blackburn. Graham Oates - £100,000 from Blackburn [March 1976] Utility man Oates was snapped up at the same time as Jones and according to Supermac was given a wonderful build-up by Lee. Unfortunately he didn't live up to his reputation and his fate with the fans was sealed within four minutes of his home debut when he smacked a 25 yard back-pass into the roof of his own net. He struggled on (making a total of 29(10) appearances and scoring 3 goals) before joining the exodus of Football League failures in the American League Martin Gorry - £50,000 from Barnsley [October 1976] 21 year old Gorry was signed as a future prospect, but ended up making only one substitute appearance for the club in 1977/78 before joining Hartlepool on a free. Steve Hardwick - £80,000 from Chesterfield [December 1976] The injury to Roger Jones led Lee to buy another 'keeper, 20 year old Steve Hardwick. Hardwick was a former England youth and amatuer international. He eventually became the first choice keeper during 1978/79 and 1979/80, but was prone to errors which earned him stick from sections of the crowd and eventually his place in the side. He joined Oxford in February 1983 after making 101 appearances. Personal Lee Lee could not work with "stars", but he certainly gained the respect of the other more mundane players Tony Parkes (who was his assistant at Blackburn) has told of how many players were in tears when Lee resigned; some even went to his house to try and persuade him to stay At Newcastle he was very popular with the "rump" that was left. Stewart Barrowclough's said at the time "I believe there is a new spirit at the club. Before we had some fine individuals at the club, now everyone works as part of a team" But It has even been suggested in some quarters that it was not just stars that Lee took a dislike to. Supposedly Newcastle were all set to sign Alan Hansen, but dropped out of the deal at the last minute because Lee did not rate Scottish players. More seriously it has been said that he would not entertain signing players who were not white. When the directors sanctioned the sale of Macdonald they were putting an enormous amount of faith in a manager that frankly didn't deserve it. He had walked out on Blackburn after serving only 18 months of his contract and never actually got round to buying a house on Tyneside. Indeed the fact that his family was still in Lancashire was one of a number of "reasons" he gave for resigning his job in charge of a side currently in the top six for a side struggling against relegation A couple of weeks before Lee resigned he was quoted in the club programme. "There is a very happy atmosphere within the club .. and the relationship between the playing staff, the coaches, myself and the Board of Directors is excellent". Within weeks he had resigned, helpfully informing the players the morning of the FA Cup Tie at home to Man City. Terrifying Lee So there we have it; misunderstood genius or evil meddler?. If we consider the evidence a terrifying picture emerges Lee had a complete aversion to "stars"; believing that they belonged in the heavens.It was a hatred that seemed to be almost evil The person he had most trouble with was Macdonald who was worshipped like a God on Tyneside. Even the song "Supermac, superstar, how many goals have you scored so far" was based on a song about Jesus When he resigned to take over at Everton he criticised the Newcastle board for "talking big" but not "acting big". He obviously felt that he could not achieve his vision working within such a parochial and parsimonious framework. What were his bigger plans? He sold established first division players and replaced them with his own 3rd and 4th rate "disciples"; players such as Jones and Oates who had been with him at Blackburn. And created an inner sanctum at the club which he used to help oust his enemies If you spell Lee's name backwards you get "eel". An eel is a term occasionally used to describe "an evasive and untrustworthy person" Astonishingly - if you take the surname of all the players he bought one of the anagrams that can be created is "Why Sir CG, rigid Gordon Lee job work Satan" Now take a look at that elongated forehead and deep sunken eyes; is this the look of a man of this earth? I know your sceptical. The idea that one of our former managers is one of the devils own, some sort of inhuman zombie is a bit hard to swallow but I leave you with a quote from the man/zombie himself "Even when you're dead you shouldn't lie down and let yourself be buried" I rest my case.

I can't really argue with the figures you mention except to say that the only figures I've ever seen are that Spurs offered Gazza £125,000 a year which was twice what we offered, I have no idea if this is true, it could be bullshit.

NE5, you are the one who thinks crowds are a measure of success; you keep banging on about getting 52,000 and that being a measure of our success when compared to old attendance figures. I've always tried to say that our crowd figures were proportionally good so was that a measure of past success?

Our average league gates with Waddle, Beardsley and Gazza were: 1983/84 - 29,811 1984/85 - 26,228, Waddles last season. 1985/86 - 23,434 1986/87 - 24,750, Beardsleys last season. 1987/88 - 21,038 1988/89 - 22,810, Gascoignes last season. 1989/90 - 21,525 The gates were falling before we sold anybody. Gazza's last season 88/89 pmsl. Mick if yee had any first hand knowledge of the toon in the 80's you would not have forgotten our opening home game of that season. Gazza's home coming with Spurs! If the toon had've been succesful (come 10th say) in 88/89 we'd have averaged 30,000 no problem. We got two 14,000 gates when we had already been relegated, or was it West Ham that put us doon? I remember Lormor's over head kick in the first minute. It's a miracle having been totally fucking shite, that we averaged 23,000, no other club that would come last in the league would've got 23,000. The reason the season before was so low was because the capacity was just over 25,000. Totally flawed points Mick, wor crowds had **** all to do with players leaving, totally ridiculous to suggest that was a reason they left. I know I got Gazza wrong, it was the season before. The point I'm trying to make with gates is that maybe the club didn't have the money to keep them. I remember Jack Charlton commenting that the club had spent/wasted (I'm not sure which) a fortune on players. I'm not trying to put our gates down, I've tried to explain to NE5 that most clubs gates were falling not just ours, I know we were always one of the best supported teams even when struggling, clubs must have been over the moon when we played them as we took so many to away games.

Lee won nothing in his career other than promotion twice, I've said that already, Souness did better than that. Where have I tried to mislead people? I understand the relavance of league position, I have no problem with that.

I suppose one of the reasons was we were known at a cup side since winning the FA Cup 3 times in the 50's and winning the Fairs Cup.

Our average league gates with Waddle, Beardsley and Gazza were: 1983/84 - 29,811 1984/85 - 26,228, Waddles last season. 1985/86 - 23,434 1986/87 - 24,750, Beardsleys last season. 1987/88 - 21,038 1988/89 - 22,810, Gascoignes last season. 1989/90 - 21,525 The gates were falling before we sold anybody.

I'll repeat again what I said for your information, I mentioned falling attendances before Sky arrived on the scene, were attendances falling or not? Or, are you going to try to change history? Gordon Lee did such a good job at Everton that they sacked him, he went to Preston where they were in such a bad state when he left that they had to be bailed out by directors, he then went to Leicester 6 years after the Preston job for one season, he won nothing during his career other than promotion from the third division twice. I've already said I preferrd the football before Lee came and I'll stand by that, it doesn't mean I prefer mediocrity.

The average attendances were roughtly the same under Gordon Lee, they were 1,000 down during his first season and were roughtly the same during the second season unless you remove the figure for the mackem game which brought a high crowd anyway and would have boosted the earlier figures if they had been in the same division, take away the Arsenal game when the crowd was massively up on what we would get against Arsenal and was only higher because of the bloke wearing the number 9 shirt for Arsenal and it was down another 1,000 which is 2,000 less than before Lee came. To be fair the gates had been falling since 1969/1970. I like the way you try to put those down who stopped going as mindless, maybe they thought we were the mindless ones for still going, I kept going but didn't enjoy the football as much, I like to enjoy the style of play as much as the result. 2 things. Why are you trying to manipulate a season long average attendance figure by removing some matches? I could just as easily go through the fixtures and remove some low ones, but I hadn't even thought of it until you started on about removing some high ones. You either want to go for an average figure or you don't. Which is it to be? Perhaps some of the clubs that were promoted and relegated that season meant that we played some 'small' clubs and our attendances were lower for that reason. Perhaps it's the other way around? Not sure why you want to go on like this, why not just stick with the average and be done with it? Oh I know, it doesn't quite suit what you're trying to portray, does it Mick? I'm not trying to put anyone down for not going. I wasn't even aware I'd said some people had stopped going, could have sworn I said attendances were roughly the same. How does that translate to me saying people stopped going? A game against Sunderland was a one off for that season and it brought in 49,664, it was a one off and the highest gate since we played Leeds in 1973, it was a blip and distorted the average figure, our average would have been higher for those years if we'd played them. I work with figures all of the time and it's normal to take something like that out when looking for a true trend, the same goes for the Arsenal game, Macdonald playing in the game put extra on the gate, are you saying that he didn't? Sorry, I'd misread your mindless comment, you're right, it didn't translate into them not going that was a mistake.

I'm still stuck looking for most of the transfer fee's mentioned, it looks as if we spent more than we brought in but not by a great deal, it could be close. I'm looking for a tie in with the gates we were getting and an initial impression is that we couldn't afford to keep Beardsley and Gazza because our gates were so low even with them playing in the team. I'm now looking at our gates from the same period to see if spending and selling is tied in, it looks like our downfall was employing Gordon Lee and selling Malcolm Macdonald. For instance, our crowd against Arsenal was 21,895 two seasons before selling Macdonald and 34,698 the season before. Macdonald went to Arsenal and we played them at home our gate was 44,677 which is a huge rise and not in keeping with our gates at that time, no other crowd figure went up anywhere near as much as that. Gates against the teams that normally lifted the crowd figures at Newcastle were reduced when Macdonald left, Boro at home had 7,000 less without Macdonald, the Man U gate was down in the region of 6,000 after selling Macdonald, Liverpool was down almost 7,000. Arsenal was the only gate that went up by any great deal, we also played the mackems that season but not the season before, we had 49,664 against the mackems which was a lot higher than any gate we had the season before, when we didn't play the mackems. The season after the big increase against Arsenal we played them again but this time Macdonald didn't play because of injury, the crowd was down to 23,679. All in all, we should stop employing managers from Blackburn, they are not good for the health of the club. do you always enjoy and support mediocrity more than people who give you top 5 teams ? BTW, the bold bits are hilarious. as for THIS, what, by the same criteria, is your comment on us getting 52k crowds since the capacity was increased, and only half that for years prior to 1992 ? Don't let straightforward logic applied by your own criteria get in the way of an opininon with no basis mind Most football clubs, but not all, were suffering from reducing crowds before Sky took over, ours were no different. Our problems date back to appointing Gordon Lee if attendances are a measure of satisfaction amongst the fans. Straightforward logic is something you don't seem to understand, if crowds are a measure of success then Lee was a failure, that's your logic, it's what you've just used. Average attendances... 31842 70/71 12th (Harvey) 32397 71/72 11th (Harvey) 26308 72/73 8th (Harvey) 32791 73/74 15th (Harvey) 33690 74/75 15th (Harvey) 34269 75/76 15th (Lee took over from Joe Harvey ) 33934 76/77 5th (Lee until Jan, then Dinnis) 25037 77/78 21st (Dinnis, relegation then McGarry) 20926 78/79 (2nd Division) 23711 79/80 (2nd Division) The attendances were roughly similar until yet again the supporters were kicked in the teeth by the Board failing to back Gordon Lee. The attendances dropped during the relegation season under Dinnis/McGarry, and then further after the relegation itself. The problem wasn't the arrival of Gordon Lee, it was the manner of his departure that brought about the feeling that once again we were being let down. Gordon Lee wanted to strengthen the side when he knew we were pushing for Europe in 1977, but he wasn't allowed to by the Board. The price was his resignation, relegation and stagnation. They aren't league attendances, I went off league attendances as we always got higher figures for the cup.

I said most clubs gates were going down before Sky, prove they were not or accept it. Gordon Lee only had 1 full season and we finished 15th, yes we were 5th when he left but anything could have happened if he'd stayed including finishing higher, he didn't so we don't know what might have happened. What happened to this manager who was ahead of his time after leaving Newcastle? I'm guessing that he went on to great things and achieved great success producing many trophies along the way, how did he get on?

The average attendances were roughtly the same under Gordon Lee, they were 1,000 down during his first season and were roughtly the same during the second season unless you remove the figure for the mackem game which brought a high crowd anyway and would have boosted the earlier figures if they had been in the same division, take away the Arsenal game when the crowd was massively up on what we would get against Arsenal and was only higher because of the bloke wearing the number 9 shirt for Arsenal and it was down another 1,000 which is 2,000 less than before Lee came. To be fair the gates had been falling since 1969/1970. I like the way you try to put those down who stopped going as mindless, maybe they thought we were the mindless ones for still going, I kept going but didn't enjoy the football as much, I like to enjoy the style of play as much as the result.

Like it or not but most of the fans were not impressed with the football that Lee served up, I know I wasn't. As for Gordon Lee knowing a good player when he saw one, what did you think of Graham Oates? Was Gordon Lee right to let Frank Clark go for nothing only to see Clark lift the second division, first division and European Cup with Forrest in three seasons? I can't remember his asking for Souness and Mills, I'm not saying that he didn't, Souness would have done a good job for us, I'm not sure that Mills would have been a good signing. Lee was a horrible person and only got the job because our first coice turned us down, pity. you're doing a sterling job with that research Mick, Gordon Lee didn't decide to move Frank Clark on, he was gone before he arrived. You DID say you supported the club during this time ......... Gordon Lee was appointed Newcastle manager in June, Clark left in July and was the first player to go once Lee arrived, that's my memory of it unless you have proof to change my mind, go for it.

I'm still stuck looking for most of the transfer fee's mentioned, it looks as if we spent more than we brought in but not by a great deal, it could be close. I'm looking for a tie in with the gates we were getting and an initial impression is that we couldn't afford to keep Beardsley and Gazza because our gates were so low even with them playing in the team. I'm now looking at our gates from the same period to see if spending and selling is tied in, it looks like our downfall was employing Gordon Lee and selling Malcolm Macdonald. For instance, our crowd against Arsenal was 21,895 two seasons before selling Macdonald and 34,698 the season before. Macdonald went to Arsenal and we played them at home our gate was 44,677 which is a huge rise and not in keeping with our gates at that time, no other crowd figure went up anywhere near as much as that. Gates against the teams that normally lifted the crowd figures at Newcastle were reduced when Macdonald left, Boro at home had 7,000 less without Macdonald, the Man U gate was down in the region of 6,000 after selling Macdonald, Liverpool was down almost 7,000. Arsenal was the only gate that went up by any great deal, we also played the mackems that season but not the season before, we had 49,664 against the mackems which was a lot higher than any gate we had the season before, when we didn't play the mackems. The season after the big increase against Arsenal we played them again but this time Macdonald didn't play because of injury, the crowd was down to 23,679. All in all, we should stop employing managers from Blackburn, they are not good for the health of the club. do you always enjoy and support mediocrity more than people who give you top 5 teams ? BTW, the bold bits are hilarious. as for THIS, what, by the same criteria, is your comment on us getting 52k crowds since the capacity was increased, and only half that for years prior to 1992 ? Don't let straightforward logic applied by your own criteria get in the way of an opininon with no basis mind Most football clubs, but not all, were suffering from reducing crowds before Sky took over, ours were no different. Our problems date back to appointing Gordon Lee if attendances are a measure of satisfaction amongst the fans. Straightforward logic is something you don't seem to understand, if crowds are a measure of success then Lee was a failure, that's your logic, it's what you've just used.

Like it or not but most of the fans were not impressed with the football that Lee served up, I know I wasn't. As for Gordon Lee knowing a good player when he saw one, what did you think of Graham Oates? Was Gordon Lee right to let Frank Clark go for nothing only to see Clark lift the second division, first division and European Cup with Forrest in three seasons? I can't remember his asking for Souness and Mills, I'm not saying that he didn't, Souness would have done a good job for us, I'm not sure that Mills would have been a good signing. Lee was a horrible person and only got the job because our first coice turned us down, pity.

I'm still stuck looking for most of the transfer fee's mentioned, it looks as if we spent more than we brought in but not by a great deal, it could be close. I'm looking for a tie in with the gates we were getting and an initial impression is that we couldn't afford to keep Beardsley and Gazza because our gates were so low even with them playing in the team. I'm now looking at our gates from the same period to see if spending and selling is tied in, it looks like our downfall was employing Gordon Lee and selling Malcolm Macdonald. For instance, our crowd against Arsenal was 21,895 two seasons before selling Macdonald and 34,698 the season before. Macdonald went to Arsenal and we played them at home our gate was 44,677 which is a huge rise and not in keeping with our gates at that time, no other crowd figure went up anywhere near as much as that. Gates against the teams that normally lifted the crowd figures at Newcastle were reduced when Macdonald left, Boro at home had 7,000 less without Macdonald, the Man U gate was down in the region of 6,000 after selling Macdonald, Liverpool was down almost 7,000. Arsenal was the only gate that went up by any great deal, we also played the mackems that season but not the season before, we had 49,664 against the mackems which was a lot higher than any gate we had the season before, when we didn't play the mackems. The season after the big increase against Arsenal we played them again but this time Macdonald didn't play because of injury, the crowd was down to 23,679. All in all, we should stop employing managers from Blackburn, they are not good for the health of the club.

I don't think the manager organises the friendlies, I remember Bobby Robson moaning about travelling for friendlies, I don't think he'd have moaned if he organised them.

If Roeder is the best we could get when Souness was sacked and Souness was the best we could get when we sacked Sir Bobby, what the hell would we get next time? I don't think Roeder has done anything special at all so far other than use some common sense, I've seen nothing from him that I haven't seen from other caretaker managers in the past and they've gone onto fail but he's doing the job that he was given, probably because nobody else wanted it. I think we're stuck with him no matter what happens so we might as well support him, not blindly, but still support him. Looking at what has happened with out last two appointments makes me think if Roeder goes we'll give Kevin Bond or terry Mac' the job, does anybody want that? I certainly don't so I'll support Roeder and hope he does better than I expect, I'm not even setting him the same target that Freddy set Sir Bobby or the one that I thought Souness had to reach when he spent almost £50 million, Roeder has a history which suggests that he's not capable of doing a job in management, maybe our crazy club is the one that brings the best out of him, we'll soon find out. I might be wrong but it looks like he's operating with a handicap, a handicap of picking up the pieces of the last failed manager and his transfer policy of spend, spend, spend. Time will tell, he's got my full support, if only because we seem to be the club that nobody else wants.