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No shit. I am making a judgment on his signing. My judgment is we threw away a lot of money and he hasn't been worth the £16m we paid for him. I am also of the opinion that his finishing isn't 'world-class' and that he's no longer deserving of the 'world-class' label that so many seem quite happy to refer to him as. Comprende? In retrospect yes but not at the time. Huge and significant difference in evaluating the 'decision' to buy him, rather than the evaluation of the purchase in hindsight. I hate going over covered ground already (especially since other people have done so) but we overpaid for him if you consider how desperate he was to leave, how Real were willing to let him leave, his performances in the 2 or so seasons prior to that summer and the other teams in direct competition with us for his signing. This isn't hindsight - at least the judgment on his fee isn't. I was excited to have him in the team but we overpaid. Either you're getting really confused, or I am. You claimed that we wouldn't have been in the situation where Owen needed to score at Birmingham if we hadn't signed him. Now you're saying it's simply about the fee? Did spending £16m on Owen stop us signing other players in the future? I personally don't think so. We should have paid the £11m for Anelka, but not instead of signing Owen, but as well as. Between the breaks I've taken to get some reading done, I think I'm really confused But, anyway, I disagree with that last statement. If we had signed Anelka, I think Luque would have proved to be more effective because Souness wanted to play 4-3-3. The real waste is the £10m that was spent on Luque.

I think it's clear you're not a fan of Owen. Still, looking forward to the West Ham match? Actually, I like Owen a lot but I hate to see people exaggerating how good he is because they then underestimate how further we have to go and thus, expectations climb too quickly. I'd rather see Owen being labeled a 'pretty good' striker so that when he misses chances, no one will jump on his back. In a round-about way, I'm just pre-emptively defending him Back to the WH match. Any news on Zoggy and Milner? I hope they both get a place on the bench this time.

No shit. I am making a judgment on his signing. My judgment is we threw away a lot of money and he hasn't been worth the £16m we paid for him. I am also of the opinion that his finishing isn't 'world-class' and that he's no longer deserving of the 'world-class' label that so many seem quite happy to refer to him as. Comprende? In retrospect yes but not at the time. Huge and significant difference in evaluating the 'decision' to buy him, rather than the evaluation of the purchase in hindsight. I hate going over covered ground already (especially since other people have done so) but we overpaid for him if you consider how desperate he was to leave, how Real were willing to let him leave, his performances in the 2 or so seasons prior to that summer and the other teams in direct competition with us for his signing. This isn't hindsight - at least the judgment on his fee isn't. I was excited to have him in the team but we overpaid.

How many fucking sitters will Owen have to miss this season before people realize that he isn't a world-class finisher anymore? The difference between Torres and a pure 'finisher' like RvN, like Baggio has said, is that Torres is a world-class striker who's all-round game makes him world class. To be a world-class finisher, you simply have to finish the easy chances consistently (which Torres doesn't do enough of). This distinction also applies to Owen in that even though he gets brownie points for being in the right position, if he doesn't finish the chances off consistently, he isn't a world-class finisher. It ain't rocket-science man. Just semantics.

What the fuck? No shit. I am making a judgment on his signing. My judgment is we threw away a lot of money and he hasn't been worth the £16m we paid for him. I am also of the opinion that his finishing isn't 'world-class' and that he's no longer deserving of the 'world-class' label that so many seem quite happy to refer to him as. Comprende?

How much money have we lost because he's not been on the pitch though? How much more revenue could we have accumulated over the past 3 years if we instead spent £5m less on someone like Anelka? Anelka had every chance of picking up exactly the same injuries as Owen. Owen's injuries had nothing to do with his past niggles. Where have I said his injuries had something to do with his past niggles? I'm in agreement as well that Owen's goal against Birmingham started the turnaround but you also have to consider the fact that we would probably not have been in that position in the first place if we signed someone else other than Owen. I'm making the point that signing Anelka instead of Owen wasn't a guaranteed way of more success. It's all about "ifs" and "buts". EDIT: Your last line is nonsense by the way. I could quite easily say that we wouldn't have been in that position if we'd signed Cristiano Ronaldo, but we didn't. The Ronaldo thing is bs. The Anelka thing is relevant because he was there for the taking (and was apparently wanted by our manager as well). That's why I've mentioned him and not picked some random bugger. Of course it's all ifs and buts but my point is that the Owen signing hasn't turned out well.

How much money have we lost because he's not been on the pitch though? How much more revenue could we have accumulated over the past 3 years if we instead spent £5m less on someone like Anelka? I'm looking at the facts, not the counter-factual I think his injuries are irrelevant in analysing the decision-making too. Alright then. Fact - Owen has played in 40 out of a possible 106 (35+38+34 so far) league games that he could have played for us. That's 38%.

How much money have we lost because he's not been on the pitch though? How much more revenue could we have accumulated over the past 3 years if we instead spent £5m less on someone like Anelka? Anelka had every chance of picking up exactly the same injuries as Owen. Owen's injuries had nothing to do with his past niggles. Where have I said his injuries had something to do with his past niggles? I'm in agreement as well that Owen's goal against Birmingham started the turnaround but you also have to consider the fact that we would probably not have been in that position in the first place if we signed someone else other than Owen.

3-1 Barca today.

2-0 if we can pass the ball. 1-1 if we struggle to like we did on Sunday. Either way, I think we could realistically end the season unbeaten and top of the form table

How much money have we lost because he's not been on the pitch though? How much more revenue could we have accumulated over the past 3 years if we instead spent £5m less on someone like Anelka?

I agree with this. But, Lampard did improve in the second half whilst Makelele kept giving the ball away. The substitution for Ballack also didn't make that much sense (to me anyway) but once again, Avram Grant seems to have the magic touch. Not that I'm complaining

Hahahaha amazing! I think they're done. Gonna have to go to the Bridge needing to score, and although Chelsea aren't the quintessential counter-attacking team, they should be able to nick one and make it safe. Good times all around. Tbf, I thought the atmosphere today was quite good. The Liverpool fans were loud throughout the entire game, sang till the end and I would have been proud if that was St. James'.

I planned on not ever posting in this thread, but I'm just cutting in to say that Anelka was available and we were actually after him, and for a price much cheaper than what we eventually paid for Owen as well. I remember Souness hinting that he wanted Anelka but somehow we ended up for Owen. It'd be interesting to know the details about why we ended up paying £5m extra for Owen instead of buying Anelka (and thus playing the 4-3-3 that Souness wanted to). Similarly, I'd like to hear Shepherd's perspective on how we ended up with Luque and not Boa Morte (because we already know Souness' view).

I've got some popcorn ready for when this thread fires up again

Groan. It's a sorry state when people are pinning that on him as a detrimental factor. He's scored one 'spectacular' goal this season, anyhow. And that was on the first day of the season. All of his goals this season have been very composed finishes. Aye, he misses a few, but his goalscoring record here is good - especially considering he's thrown about in all sorts of positions this season. Owen's missed more chances than him this year. And i think it's a load of bollocks to say that a player, at 22/23, cannot improve. Especially with the talent he has. The suggestion really is a peculiar one to make atm too when, under Keegan in this roaming role, he's looked better than ever. Yeah, you slagged off my favourite player. Biatch.

The good old days, eh?

Phantom fouled whistled by the ref. I think he was trying to make up for the fact that the corner that we got was actually supposed to be a goal kick (and the Sunderland players were whining like bitches).

1. Player of the year Habib Beye 2. Most improved player Fuck, this is pretty hard considering we haven't had any youngsters coming through but I'll give this one to Harper. I was always iffy about him because of his previous gaffes but he's been good this season. 3. Young player of the year Jose Enrique. It'd be Zoggy but he didn't keep up his early season form, and the fact that he hasn't played a part in a period where we've been at our best all season hurts his candidacy. 4. Goal of the season Zoggy away to Boro. 5. Highlight of the season 4-1 against Spurs 6. Low point of the season 5-1 at home to the cunts 9. Board's performance (out of 10) 6. Should have fired Allardyce earlier if they didn't believe in him, then fucked it up by sacking him at the wrong time but rescued it by appointing Keegan. 12. How can we improve Midfielders and strikers. 13. How do you feel compared to last season (b)happier 14. What made you smile this season? Oba's 4th against Spurs 15. What made you angry this season? Played off the park by Liverpool 16. Which six players would you keep as a base for next season's team if you had to clear the rest out? Enrique, Beye, Owen, Martins, Barton and Faye. 18. Unsung hero at the club? Geremi. 26. Kevin Keegan's performance (out of 10) 8. 27. Do you think the current formationhas a long-term future rather than 4-4-2? Yes/No Yes.

Only if you're a Man U or Barca supporter. Nobody else cares. False.

It's Given's birthday today.

No place for him in a 4-3-3. And it looks like when we switch to 4-4-2 then Duff is the favoured option, possibly because Zog is proving to be a huffy bugger. Could we not scrap Geremi and bring in Zoggy? Geremi seems to me to be the weakest link in the mid. Even though Geremi was only okay-ish (at best) in general play today, he created a goal. He's also been creating a fuck load of goals lately for us so there's no reason not to continue playing this same formation with the same players.

Had a few quality attacking runs to support Geremi (who really looked tired today). He is undoubtedly our player of the season.

Not enough movement in front of him (or in front of the midfield, tbf) but he did what he's paid to do (defend) and did it very well today. To be honest, I'm not that bothered about his attacking game because KK will be bringing in players in the summer whose job will be to score/assist, so as long as Enrique excels defensively, he'll be worth the £6m Allardyce paid for him.

Sell him now, his value won't be any higher than it is