Yorkie

On the upside, i've enjoyed my first full-throttle argument with the one and only Vic.

Hey ho. The argument with Vic was about Duff's performances not being helped by Roeder's favouritism towards him. That's something i'll still go with, it's probably got some truth to it, but then i suppose there probably wasn't any other realistic option than the Zog, so i can go in tandom with Vic in some respects.

Gotta admit, looking through, i've come out with some shit in this thread like. Meh. Atleast i can admit it.

(To Shak's post) Just feel that he's a player that we don't need (assuming we'll go 4-3-3 next season), never did, and would be a waste of time trying to sort his performances out when N'Zogbia has more going for him at this stage in his career. Plus, he'll undoubtedly be on big wages having come from Chelsea, and spends half his time on the injury table. He's injured till like December this season anyway! IF we could make a good chunk of our £5m back (and to be fair, i did say that in the first place), i'd be more than happy to snap Spurs' hands off. Not that we would be able to sell him at this moment in time anyway... If he stays, i'm not overly bothered; i've never actually started an i-want-him-out parade. Go back to my very first post and i said Sam needed to kick him up the arse, not Sam needed to boot him out. Just if someone comes in with a decent offer, i'd happily accept it.

How was Duff ever going to get any better when Roeder threw him straight back in the team, without any second thought? Calm down, btw. I've no idea what you're even getting at here, is duff some kind of untried youth player? Nope, he was tried and tested and utterly shit. N'Zogbia wasn't the only other option, he could have played Milner there. Or Emre, or even Pattison or Luque. Fact is, he didn't try (for any prolonged period, anyway). Duff barely had to do owt to earn his place in our side, even if he was playing badly, except win two Premiership titles a couple years back. The initial point was that. There was no competition for left-wing in Roeder's eyes so Duff barely had to push himself. Glad you've cooled yourself.

How was Duff ever going to get any better when Roeder threw him straight back in the team, without any second thought? Calm down, btw.

we need two LW's and we need one who's actually proved himself in the premiership Not if we're playing 4-3-3. And who cares if he's proved himself in the Premiership? He was abysmal last season and is on the downfall. And aye, he was s**** last season, but N'Zogbia's proved he can play in the Premiership aswell. it's nowt personal, i'd love to argue with four people lets be honest he hasn't proved himself in the premiership I enjoy a good debate (wonder who'll be first to 'FYP' me), but i don't have a hope in hellers against four people who disagree with me. I'm just not intelligent enough. Proved himself isn't the term, but N'Zogbia's shown that he's definitely up to it when it comes to playing in the Premiership, as he was good in 04/05 and very good in 05/06. 'Proved himself' is probably one notch higher in the scale, but he's up to it. No question for me. Just needs some guidance.

I make of it that you think you know an awfull lot about the two players minds, and that this at best a simplistic interpretation of events "laid-back favouritism from Roeder contributed to Duff's downfall" FFS I said i was summarising, which is why it was brief. Seeing as you picked out that point, i'll branch off and go into more depth, just for your sake. Roeder favoured Duff, there is absolutely no question about that. It was his big (pointless) signing, and as a weak manager he felt as though he had to play him, not having the balls to drop him, regardless of whether it was for the good of the team or not. This clearly rubbed off on Duff, because he knew that whenever he came back from injury, he'd just cruise straight back into the starting line-up, without even having to sweet talk Roeder. Psychologically speaking, the player is obvioulsy enjoying the easy ride, and it is detrimental to his performance. He didn't have to work for his place. That's why Roeder's favouritism contributed to poor performances. Same could be said for a few other players aswell. Dyer in-particular, who started off well, but then came cemented as an automatic starter and his performances decreased significantly come the end of the season. Vic, instead of saying 'FFS', can't you atleast develop a decent argument?

we need two LW's and we need one who's actually proved himself in the premiership Not if we're playing 4-3-3. And who cares if he's proved himself in the Premiership? He was abysmal last season and is on the downfall. And aye, he was shite last season, but N'Zogbia's proved he can play in the Premiership aswell.

Good post, NE5 - well the last paragraph i mean. I still think Duff was a needless signing. Hopefully people might ignore the Shepherd extract.

I'm arguing against about four people here so i'm just gonna summarise my opinion and leave it at that. N'Zogbia had attitude problems, and he should have handled himself better, i'm not disputing that. Roeder was the main point of his downfall, though. If the players have got a serious problem, either on the pitch or off it or both, it is up to the manager to get a grip and try and help the guy. Roeder fucked up big time. I think N'Zogbia has the potential to be one of the best wingers in the Premiership, providing he is taught right - he'd have been immense at Arsenal - and i was deeply saddened and angry as fuck to see him get wasted last season, when he was so good in 05/06. I don't like Duff, we didn't need him and i couldn't give two shits if we got a fee for him and he buggered off. He was a total waste of space last season, clearly on the downfall, and he's not getting any younger so i can't imagine he'll peak back up to how he was - especially given his rotten injury record. I said Allardyce should be tough with him, because that's exactly what Roeder wasn't; and i feel that the laid-back favouritism from Roeder contributed to Duff's downfall. I never said that N'Zogbia shouldn't be given a good kick up the arse aswell. Those are my honest opinions regarding the two players. Make of it what you will.

Aye, he was immense last year and his injury record is absolutely pristine.

say what you want about Daminen Duff, he's a two time premiership winner who was more than happy to cover at LB on more than one occassion 20 year old Charles N'zogbia (who when started last season was abysmal) refused to sit on the bench we should get rid of Duff because of his attitude problem??? No, i think we should flog him because we don't need him, we never did, and i reckon he's on the downfall. so you'd have total confidence in keeping N'zogbia as our main LW? I'd rather Allardyce tried to sort N'Zogbia out, than try to sort Duff out.

say what you want about Daminen Duff, he's a two time premiership winner who was more than happy to cover at LB on more than one occassion 20 year old Charles N'zogbia (who when started last season was abysmal) refused to sit on the bench we should get rid of Duff because of his attitude problem??? No, i think we should flog him because we don't need him, we never did, and i reckon he's on the downfall - so if we could make our money back i'd be happy. Not that we would.

Why? Because he's got a lot to prove!! If we had Roeder, as soon as he came back from injury, he'd be straight in the team. That probably contributed to the player's downfall last season, he got away with murder. I can only ever recall him being dropped once, at home to Villa. And that was it. Just needs to prove his worth, that's all. Not saying N'Zogbia doesn't.

N'Zogbia and Roeder were in proportion to a seven-year old kid and a single chav mother on the game. Aye, N'Zogbia had problems, but they all sparked from Roeder and there was no way Roeder would be able to sort him out.

Duff's got a fucking lot to do when he gets fit again. Well he should do, and i can imagine Allardyce would be of the same opinion. Roeder played him at the drop of a hat, regardless of whatever circumstances, cos his name was Damien Duff and he came from Chelsea. Hopefully Big Sam will be rough as fuck with him. He ought to be. Still, not overly confident either way with Duff. Wish we could just flog him in all honesty.

Agreed, Shak. N'Zogbia could, probably should, have handled the situation a little better - but the treatment he got from the management set-up was of a suicidal nature to the club. You just don't do that to your brightest, fecking ace, talents.

Dang. There was a glimmer of hope that i'd spoken too soon aswell. Arse.

Must have taken you ages.

Likewise, i wouldn't be happy. I just said that if he were going to in one of the competitions, i'd rather it be the FA Cup...

Why not? All the Spanish papers are saying Barca will probably sell Marquez once they get Gabi Milito. Atletico Madrid are the only club linked with Marquez, but they don't exactly blow us out of the water. Marquez got his Spanish passport last November so he'd have no problems playing over here. AS are claiming that Atletico would want Barca to seriously lower their price or even accept a loan deal. They're looking for a ball playing centre back and Marquez is said to be good friends with their coach. But I think if we were to offer something like £8m Barca would definitely listen. Andrade just went for £6.7M and although Depor are really skint, Marquez is about to become 4th choice at the Nou Camp while Andrade was the star player at Depor. To say we would never have a chance is to suggest that someone like Milan would come and snap him up, yet for the moment I only see Atletico putting their name forward. Yorkie tends to generally be sceptical of our chances of signing anyone tbh. I won't deny that tbh. Well i dunno, i don't think sceptical's the word. Too realistic maybe. I'm probably not ambitious enough.

Be realistic man. Marquez could go to any club in the world.

We all knew that.

What are you on about? If Allardyce were to play weak sides in either of the competitions, i'd rather he did it in the FA Cup, as apposed to the Carling Cup. If that makes sense. However, he probably won't do so in either. I don't see how the FA Cup is that much more difficult to win tbh. It's obviously a bit easier as the Big 4 will be fielding weaker teams early on, but in terms of going all the way we've almost just as good a chance in the FA Cup imo. Answered your own question. The top four have the FA Cup sewn up for a long time now, i reckon.