afar

We are not in a position to "send the right message", we need to win football games. Shelvey is infinitely superior to Perez and should be brought in for him imo. However if Rafa won't play a more flat central 3 and prefers to go with Perez in the hole, even though he doesn't really play that role that well, then he'll drop one of Merino or Hayden, my guess would be Merino. Shelvey will be up for this one too, anxious to repay the team for his stupidity and keen to put one over his old team. He's also the player we were built around in pre-season, I can't imagine all that preperation will be thrown away by Rafa.

Douglas said he has to START 20 games before the option to buy kicks in, that seems awfully high, I hope he's wrong and it 20 games played, as I can see him being used off the bench more often than not this season.

If it were just about names and reputation, football would be so predictable, thankfully it's not. Personally I would bet on Rafa ahead of any of the other managers we'll be competing against at the bottom, those other teams are not so stacked with superior talent to mitigate all of Rafa's ability. Paul Clement is in his second manager's job, he's never completed a full season and was sacked from Derby County in his only other job.

Such a frustrating player, still young, have no doubt in my mind if we sell him he'll go on to another team score a hat full and they'll in turn sell him to another club for a huge profit. It's our luck. If we hold onto him he'll probably continue to frustrate and never progress. Actually think a season long loan for him would have been a great move for us and him, only we had no cover up front to make that remotely possible.

I would say that's about right, based on the manager we have. We are definitely in the battle at the bottom but there are plenty of teams with either questionable quality (Brighton, Huddersfield, Burnley, Bournemouth, Watford) or poor/unproven/potential unsitable coaching (West Ham, Palace, Southampton and Stoke) or both. Having a multi trophy winner as your manager makes a poor squad of players a whole lot more competitive and I think 7th fav to go down is about right. This all changes of course if Rafa leaves.

Gates & matchday is about £25m The wage bill the year we went down was triple that. That can't even buy you Danny Drinkwater. Ticket income is becoming less and less important as the ridiculous TV money increases. The wage bill we took into the season was a lot less than what we went down with, with the sales and loan outs we made, no way the inbounds made the amount of those we got shot of. Also we did get paachute payments (or PL TV deal, since that's paid in arrears I think). I'll say it again, you should not need 73 million just to survive one season in the champ, the money has just gone into the fat man's pocket but through accountancy magic it'll be seen as him bailing us out.

It's ludicrous to believe despite slashing the wage bill that we needed 73 million (40 million transfer profits plus the 33 million "loan") to stay afloat last year, if every club needed that amount to survive when they go down, they would all be in administration surely, especially when we more or less filled out our stadium every game last season, no one else who gets relegated will come anywhere near our average attendance. Just tax fiddling and a way to say to everyone how much we our in debt to his benevolent leadership.

It might in the end help motivate him to get over his mental issues about his hamstrings. He can't continue being a fanny about it and focus on his form if he wants to get his place back in the team.

Who's your source, who said he must be selling, presume you are referring to Ashley?

If Ashley wanted rid of Rafa because he's popular, then why not get rid after promotion when talks were held to persuade Rafa to stay? He could, in theory, have parted ways with Rafa and brought in a puppet with barely a murmur of discontent (most of us would have considered it a real possibility that Rafa would leave after what happened in January). Could have put out news stories about Rafa wanting to move on or wanting different challenges compared to what NUFC can offer to placate fans. Obviously we don't know if contract clauses would have affected those discussions, though if Rafa was unhappy with the discussions what other option would he have had other than to leave? And whilst I imagine Rafa allegedly communicating his unhappiness with the transfer situation through the media during the summer may have irked Ashley, Rafa did the same in January, so it's nothing new. Nothing makes sense with Ashley. There's many possibilities, but one of them that I won't rule out just yet is that this is all to do with not wanting to spend until the money is actually received and banked. Wishful thinking probably, but it's still a possibility. I think that is absolutely the case, despite this TV money being guaranteed he's standing to his stance that Rafa can have all the money that we make but no more. The thing that will piss of Rafa most though is the mixed messages he's undoubtedly received, expected to be able to spend that 30 million plus he made last window, expected to be able to spend the upcoming PL TV money, told to ship players out to cut the wage bill, but then not able to secure replacements for the players left. Gibbs was a strange one for me, we were in for him at the start of the window, he goes to Stoke and doesn't agree terms but then ends up at WBA for 7 million. That's a figure surely we should have been all over, but we didn't appear to be interested yet we were desperate for a LB.

It's shocking really how average Argentina have been during the Messi years, it's not like he's been their only world class player in that period. Is it his fault or the management ?

Seems like they are very happy with their day, looks totally underwhelming to me, but hey ho: https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/well-done-sunderland.1389258/

I've been trying to mobilise some co-workers because their terms and conditions are changing for the worse without our consent, and it's almost an impossible task. The apathy of folks and lack of appetite to try to force change is incredulous. The same has happened and will continue to happen with Ashley, unless there is a seismic change in that attitude to just go along with things, then we are stuck with him until he gets the money he wants for it to be beneficial to walk away.

This was posted on the beeb transfer deadline page, lot of stuff I didn't know here, like only being able to register 2 loans at a time, that must have changed since Sunderland's PL days as half their squad didn't seem to belong to them: Premier League loan rules Deals, deals, deals. But what are the rules that govern them? The Premier League have given us some guidance on loan deals. Here we go... These are officially called temporary transfers. Under Premier League rules, there are restrictions on how many players Premier League clubs can loan from other Premier League/English clubs. They are: Premier League clubs may not register more than two players on loan at any one time. The maximum number of loans registrable in the same season is four, and, under no circumstances, shall more than one be from the same club at any one time. Premier League clubs cannot loan to another Premier League club a player they have acquired in the same transfer window. A Premier League club may loan not more than one of its goalkeepers to another Premier League club With the exception of Welsh clubs competing in the competitions listed under Rule V.6.2, loans from a club in membership of another National Association do not count towards the above quotas (international loans are governed by FIFA under separate regulations)

Has fell through. They're raging. They tired to apply for an extension at 1am, ffs what are they complaining about, why leave it so damn late !

He would get that extra control with a middle of Shelvey, Merino and Hayden as opposed to the likely Perez, Shelvey and Hayden. I think when we are playing away from home that might be the better way to go with Shelvey a little more advanced than the other two. The sad fact is though, Perez is our only real number 10 right now, who's his back up now that Diame has been moved back to a more withdrawn role ?

That won't change a thing. Bournemouth paid 20 million for a player this off season, on gates of what 11k. The only thing AShley responds to is money and the money is in the TV deal, this squad although weak is still capable of making 17th, he'll be delighted with that. You have no idea whether it would definitely change a thing, but what you do know is that a packed stadium definitely wouldn't change a thing. Sky aren't going to televise an empty PL stadium btw, it's bad for the brand. You are overplaying the importance of the live televised games in the UK, the big money is the amount all clubs get through the UK and oversees deals. Hell I watched the WBA/Stoke game live here in Canada, they didn't stop showing it because of the masses of empty seats. Attendance bears little relation to the decisions they make on the games they pick.

Yeah I don't get that from nufc.com, none of this shambles is Rafa's fault, yes he had some failures in the market, but which manager hasn't ? You absolutely need to absolve him from any blame here, it's all completely on the shoulders of the owner and his lackies.

Spot on.

Yeah that's not true like, there's a lot of dross at the bottom of the PL. Getting up was a major achievement that had the potential to be career threatening for Rafa, he was expected to get us up, now he's working under an owner that has not backed him, a lot less pressure on him and a lot easier to play the style of counter attacking football he likes. We'll see. What is there to see ? You are totally under playing the fabulous effort it was to get us up last year, Rafa took a huge personal gamble, had he failed his career would have gone Moyes like. The bulk of the clubs at the bottom of the PL are not that much better than those at the top of Champ, get 40 - 50 points to get safe is not that much more difficult than having to slog through the 46 game Champ season, when every week the other team has their cup final, with Jack Colback and Yoann Gouffran in your team.

Yeah that's not true like, there's a lot of dross at the bottom of the PL. Getting up was a major achievement that had the potential to be career threatening for Rafa, he was expected to get us up, now he's working under an owner that has not backed him, a lot less pressure on him and a lot easier to play the style of counter attacking football he likes.

That won't change a thing. Bournemouth paid 20 million for a player this off season, on gates of what 11k. The only thing AShley responds to is money and the money is in the TV deal, this squad although weak is still capable of making 17th, he'll be delighted with that.

Exactly, i don't really get the argument they are the same as ashley Wasn't Bilic whining the other day that he had no sympathy for Rafa because West Ham's Net spend was less than ours, and just look at that team that turned up at SJP, James f***ing Collins at CB, that's tragic. Not sure they've backed Bilic at all this summer although unlike Rafa that's probably a wise move. Bilic isn't going to blame himself is he, nor is he right about the net spend. There was a table a few pages back. James Collins, agreed. They also turned up with Hernandez, Zabaleta, Hart, and without a suspended Arnautovic too. Zabaleta and Hart are long past their sell by dates, thought they were both extremely poor at SJP. Arnautovic is average at best and as much of a live wire as Shelvey or Mitro. Hernandez is their best singing of the summer but is only useful to you inside the penalty area (heard a startling fact during the commentary on Saturday, that all his PL goals have come inside the penalty area), he's Gayle like in his contribution to the build up play, they are struggling to get the ball in the box, so could be argued that he's not going to be a great fit there. This is all irrelevant, man. The point is about backing managers and Rafa would have his own signings. Hey I agree he will go when a club come along that look like they know what they are doing, West Ham though are not that club. Money talks though, if they pay up the break clause and offer Rafa a salary equal to one he's on here, you would be crazy not to worry that he will take it but it's not because West Ham are better run than us because they are not, those two jokers don't have the wealth of Ashley either, so he'll be working under the same restrictions of spending what the club makes. It'll be either a choice between the "grass is greener" or "better the devil you know for him". That's why he may very well decide to sit it out and wait for a better situation to open up, he can surely pick and chose his options.

Exactly what I said, there is no simple solution.

Exactly, i don't really get the argument they are the same as ashley Wasn't Bilic whining the other day that he had no sympathy for Rafa because West Ham's Net spend was less than ours, and just look at that team that turned up at SJP, James f***ing Collins at CB, that's tragic. Not sure they've backed Bilic at all this summer although unlike Rafa that's probably a wise move. Bilic isn't going to blame himself is he, nor is he right about the net spend. There was a table a few pages back. James Collins, agreed. They also turned up with Hernandez, Zabaleta, Hart, and without a suspended Arnautovic too. Zabaleta and Hart are long past their sell by dates, thought they were both extremely poor at SJP. Arnautovic is average at best and as much of a live wire as Shelvey or Mitro. Hernandez is their best singing of the summer but is only useful to you inside the penalty area (heard a startling fact during the commentary on Saturday, that all his PL goals have come inside the penalty area), he's Gayle like in his contribution to the build up play, they are struggling to get the ball in the box, so could be argued that he's not going to be a great fit there.