The Prophet

I honestly think it will be that kind of margain again this year. The league hasn't settled down yet. West Brom are fucked in my honest opinion, they just don't have enough to stay in the league, simple as that. Then you start to look at the other contenders: I think both Bolton and Stoke will struggle on the road but will pick up points at home due to their rough-house tactics. Fulham as always will be down their. Hull have given themselves a great chance but will gate-crash the scrap. Sunderland look good bets to struggle as well as ourselves. If we continue to pick up results at home, as well as the the odd away result and I think we'll keep our heads' above water

So what do you propose we do about it? We're snookered until Ashley sells up.

I'm unsure why people were so desperate to get Owen on the park. When your going to a ground like Fulham you know the play is going to be as tight as a ducks arse. As it happened it turned out that way and I was disappointed with the way Kinnear reacted to it. Why on earth did he bring Owen on? Whats the point in bringing on a finisher when there was no chances to finish? In that situation you want someone who can create a yard of space, keep posession and pick a pass in the final third. For me we really lacked Guthrie today, I was slightly bermused as to why he wasn't brought on. Guthrie and Gonzales would of worked wonders for us today and I'd have brought the former on before I'd of even considered Owen.

I'm just shocked anyone was expecting any different.

Aye we've never turned in a pathetic display at the cottage before have we? Jesus. It's not about one result, it's about where we are as a club, and why.. I agree with you, but the comment above is an utterly pointless with no relavence to the point at all. We've always had a problem travelling to smaller opposition. It's doesn't indicate we're going backwards.

Aye we've never turned in a pathetic display at the cottage before have we? Jesus.

He is. At least he doesn't f*** off when the going gets tough. When the "truth" comes out that might prove to be the bare bones of it, but as it stands it's nowt more than speculation. I was meaning as far as man-management and the like goes, more than anything, despite the fact that seems to be one of Big Joe's strong-points. Obviously I hope he continues to do well but anyone seeing him as a long-term answer will be sorely disappointed I think. it looks like a roeder situation all over again. i was interested to see how roeder fared given how well he did in the caretaker role but after that sorry escapade, not again. i wouldn't be against Kinnear leading us for the remainder of the season if he has proven to be good enough by the time the takeover goes through. so far i'd say he's done pretty well but a defeat today and everyone will saying he's s**** - as they did after the mackem match (and to a lesser extent west brom). jury is still very much out on JFK. But it really isn't. Yes the scenario is the same but given the full time job I think Kinnear would handle it very differently. Roeder was afraid to upset people. He was pleasant toward the fans, the media and I would think the players. If you remember at the time a majority felt in the end he had to go but had mixed feeling because he was such a sound bloke. Roeder was undoubtly a good coach but he just didn't have the metal to make it as a manager. Joe on the other hand is an old fashioned manager. He has an old fashioned attitude towards football and won't hold back when he feels something needs to be said. He's got the whole siege mentality going on and it really looks like it's rubbing off on the players who are playing as a solid unit. Do I think Joe should be given the Job? (See an earlier post of mine) The jury is very much out. Should he be in contention? Very much so. how is it not? you're looking at the situation from our position today, you have to forget everything that happened after roeder was appointed and compare now to when roeder finished the season with us as caretaker. qualifying for europe after souness left us relegation threatened was nothing short of miraculous, and roeder did far better in the job, and had more support to be a permanent manager, than Kinnear. Kinnear is an old fashioned manager who delights in adversity and creating an us vs them mentality. he thrives in situations like this, being underdogs, having problems, swearing at the press and so on. it's just like the crazy gang routine. but that is not going to cut it in a full-time job when circumstances will be different. if he is to be in contention his record should be viewed objectively like every other candidate out there, and that means looking at his time at luton or notts forest too. I was looking from the perspective of the managers credentials but even their time in charge has been different. You can't judge the two on results until the end of Kinnear's reign. So what exactly is the same? It's a different period in the season minus the injury crisis and the threat of relegation. Not to mention Roeder had the fan's hero by his side. If anything Roeder had the more difficult scenario, but Joe has more to lose. The only factor linking the two is that they're both in temporary charge and want a crack at the full time position.

He is. At least he doesn't f*** off when the going gets tough. When the "truth" comes out that might prove to be the bare bones of it, but as it stands it's nowt more than speculation. I was meaning as far as man-management and the like goes, more than anything, despite the fact that seems to be one of Big Joe's strong-points. Obviously I hope he continues to do well but anyone seeing him as a long-term answer will be sorely disappointed I think. it looks like a roeder situation all over again. i was interested to see how roeder fared given how well he did in the caretaker role but after that sorry escapade, not again. i wouldn't be against Kinnear leading us for the remainder of the season if he has proven to be good enough by the time the takeover goes through. so far i'd say he's done pretty well but a defeat today and everyone will saying he's s**** - as they did after the mackem match (and to a lesser extent west brom). jury is still very much out on JFK. But it really isn't. Yes the scenario is the same but given the full time job I think Kinnear would handle it very differently. Roeder was afraid to upset people. He was pleasant toward the fans, the media and I would think the players. If you remember at the time a majority felt in the end he had to go but had mixed feeling because he was such a sound bloke. Roeder was undoubtly a good coach but he just didn't have the metal to make it as a manager. Joe on the other hand is an old fashioned manager. He has an old fashioned attitude towards football and won't hold back when he feels something needs to be said. He's got the whole siege mentality going on and it really looks like it's rubbing off on the players who are playing as a solid unit. Do I think Joe should be given the Job? (See an earlier post of mine) The jury is very much out. Should he be in contention? Very much so.

Whilst all that is undoubtedly true, it's not the way I've taken the thread personally. There have been people saying we've gone back 20 years over the past few months, that it's been the worst period in our recent history (I bet some mongs have even just said "history") despite the fact that we've had loads of injury problems allied to everything else. Yes the Keegan stuff has been the straw which seems to have broken a fair few thousand camel's backs after years of frustration, but as far as the playing squad goes and the infrastructure within the club goes (talking Academy/Reserves/First Team squad here), things aren't as bad as they've been made out to be, despite all the s**** that's gone on outside of that. Hopefully more than anything it's shown people just how much a manager - sometimes any manager - can influence a certain set of players and get them playing above themselves/to the best of their ability. It's not as simple a game as some like to make out, not by a long chalk. Oh I agree things have been blown out all of all proportion, that's why we're sat here with an owner wanting to sell up and a interim manager. As for your second point it comes down to that old cliche really: "the game isn't played on paper"

It's already been said, silly thread. By the opening post I take it we're discussing the team on the field. You can't compare two different teams from two different generations. Times have changed, the weaker teams are now stronger, the stronger teams are even stronger not to mention the problems off the park. Can you honestly tell me Sir Bob's team would be doing any better than the current crop? I doubt it. Same goes for the current side. Would they have finished third five years ago? Again it's very difficult to say. There's no argument to be had here, just speculation.

I'd keep things as they are for the time being. I'm not Shola's greatest fan but he doesn't seem to be working too badly with Martins. If it ain't broke then don't fix it. We should probably start to adjust to life without Owen, especially if he wants to talk to other clubs in January.

You could argue that he could have done better against Everton (to call it a silly mistake is bollocks) but what was this rick against WBA? Aye silly mistake is a bit strong. Didn't exactly cover himself in glory for Miller's goal did he? The centre backs were just as culpable like. Just as culpable? Far more I would say. Perfect pass, nothing Shay could have done. I was critical last season but he's been back to his best this year so far. Fair crack, I disagree though. Thought first couple of matches his saves won us points but as the team have lossed form so has he to an extent. I'm not saying he's been poor, anything but, but I still wouldn't say he's been back to his best.

You could argue that he could have done better against Everton (to call it a silly mistake is bollocks) but what was this rick against WBA? Aye silly mistake is a bit strong. Didn't exactly cover himself in glory for Miller's goal did he? The centre backs were just as culpable like.

First of all this was a theoretical point aiming to provoke discussion, it would be naive to think in this day and age you'd be able to take your time building a squad when other team a few years to build when you've got so many teams throwing large amounts of money about. Secondly Given has been both good and bad this season. Outstanding in his first couple of matches but he's made silly mistakes against Everton and WBA which have cost us goals. His general keeping has also been suspect at time, don't get me wrong still a great keeper, he just set a high standard and hasn't quite matched it this year. Also regarding your comment about how many matches I've seen is it really relevant?

I know it's a crazy notion, but I think a couple of seasons of near misses could do us the world of good. Now don't get me wrong I always want this club to do well but it might just be that it needs to go backwards before it can move forwards again. When you look up and down the league what do all the teams up the top of end of the table have that the rest don't? I think they have at least three or four players who you can look at who consistently perform. They don't necessarily set the world alight but they enjoy playing for their football team and play with a bit of pride and passion. You have Man United at the top of the league with the likes of Ferdinand, Scholes, Carrick and Rooney, lower down the league you have Villa with Laursen, Barry, Young and Agbonlahor and if you look at a team who's improved a fair bit this year take Boro who now posses players such as Wheater, Digard, Downing and Alves. Now obviously the better the team the better core of players they have at their disposal, but that core provides the foundation for the entire squad to be built on and I think that's where we're going wrong. On match day who do you look at on the team sheet and think: "They'll definetly perform today"? At the minute the only player I can think of in the entire squad who fits into that bracket is Jonas. What about the rest: Given hasn't been himself for about a year now, Coloccini has been largely a success but is still capable of a poor showing, Martins is a mixed bag and Owen tends to miss more chances than he puts away (when he's fit) and don't get me started on the midfield. If we go back a couple of years to the Sir Bob era Given was arguably the best keeper in the league, Speed was a rock, Solano would always put on a show out wide and Shearer was simply a legend. Can you see what I'm saying? Just look at Spurs as another example of a side that lack this core, hence their inconsistency. Now what does this have to do with the opening point you ask. well currently the foundation of our team is built upon a group of players who are paid large sums and produce little on the field. Now I know we're currently in a bit of a crisis but this has been going on since the days of Souness. The question is would you be able to stand a couple of relegation dogfights if we could wipe the slate clean? Wouldn't it be nice if those wasters took their greed to elsewhere and we could start again? It would take at least a couple of seasons to get rid of the current crock and begin to lay these foundations, then as we get better we begin to add the luxury players. Now this is very theoretical point. If we were to start such a rebuilding process based on a long term plan in this day and age there's the risk we'd get left behind. The money being pumped into Premier League sides now means you can't afford to hang around. The problem is with the current squad I don't think we're going anywhere fast, we need some kind of foundation and structure to the squad otherwise we're just pouring money into a bottomless pit. I'm also ignoring the fact of our current plight which still needs to be overcome, obviously new board members and management staff will have to employed before any form of team rebuilding could begin. The point is, we've gone about building our side the wrong way for too long now and a clean slate could be just what we need to progress. Discuss...

I agree to an extent. It was a fantastic effort but the keeper could of done better. He had a serious case of the old crisp packet hands. It was better than say Alonso's against ourselves but it wasn't as good as Taylor's efforts or Drogba's volley against Everton, and that didn't even manage it into goal of the season.

Wouldn't describe Guthrie as a box-to-box midfielder, he's anything but. The lad hasn't got an engine.

I loved how Barton almost ran straight for the ball as soon as the penalty had been given. So full of confidence and so eager to prove himself. Showed signs of captain material tonight IMO, gave instructions to Enrique before the game and Colo when coming out after half time. Completely agree, the best character on the pitch. Did you see him and Colocinni coming out for the second half? Whatever was said obviously didnt pan out but he was giving him loads of instructions. Proper leader. Barton? Captain? Don' let the PC brigade hear that, a Hitler of the twenty first century have you not heard?

I didn't get round to watch the game but just a couple of points to bear in mind: 1) At this stage in the Premier League their are no mugs. It's worth bearing in mind before today West Brom had a margain over us, in our current state I'd take any kind of win I couldn't care less how it comes about. 2) There's a thread about the negative play in the second half, why not focus on the positives in the first? It's about time we actually had some to discuss. 3) There's no doubt Kinnear is tactically static, this became apparent in the derby defeat, but at the same time I can understand where he was coming from. As I said before: I'd take any kind of win at the moment and I think he had the same mindset and tried to shut the game down. (This DOESN'T mean I agree with his tactics , needless to say anyone who has followed our team for any length of time knows how inept we are at holding on to a lead.)

Most recently the Partizan Belgrade match, it wasn't just a bad result but the whole night went tits up. Was the begining of the end for Sir Bob really. mackems.gif You s*** yourself in the Gallowgate, bet you got some funny looks as you ran to the toilets like a cowboy.

Some interesting points in this thread. I think the defensive midfielder has become more common in recent years as football has become more tactical due to the money involved. I wouldn't give the position a text book mould because you get different types of player who play in that position. Obviously the bread and butter job of a defensive midfielder is to sit in front of the defence and break up the opposition attacks. He remains disciplined and takes a bit of pressure of the defence. However I think this position has evolved in recent years. You now have players play in that position to receive the ball from the back four and dictate play, take Pirlo for example. He never really gets out of his own half due to his defensive duties but his footballing brain and long range distribution are a fantastic asset for launching attacks. You also get defensive midfielders who remain defensive but still get forward. By this I mean they don't just sit in front of the defence all game. They remain there when under attack or during slow build up but when the pressure is off and their team is comfortable they will venture up and join the attack. The most recent example I can think for this is Gilberto Silva. I don't think a defensive midfielder is essential. It would be pointless someone like Derby in last year's campaign having a someone in this role when they were shipping goals for fun anyway, they may as well have another player contributing to the attack. However there's no doubt this position has become more common of late, especially in the Premier League. I think some of this has to do with the emergence of Makelele at Chelsea and what a fantastic job he did, but I think the main reason is money. When you see two top sides play now the first half is usually like a chess game. Neither team want to risk going a goal down early on so they stick a lad in front of the back four for a bit of extra protection. This is due to the high stakes in these games which is born out of the fact that winning them and achieving long term success increases revenue. Now this sounds far fetched but think about how tactical the game has become in recent years, attacking midfielders, defensive midfielders, the increased reliance on full backs have all emerged as teams have tried to evolve and become more successful because that's where the money is. As one team attempts it and succeeds other teams will follow. I'm not sure where this leaves the box-to-box midfielder, put it this way if you want to play that position you have to be very good at it. You can see the consequences of playing the position badly by watching Scott Parker and his spell here. Whenever he sat in front of the back four, fine. As soon as he had his action man cap on it all went to pot, his midfield partner didn't know whether he was on his head or his arse, was he defending? Was he attacking? And there were pockets of space all over the park because of this. So I do think the box-to-box midfielder can work but it has to be played in the correct system where the individual is given a lisence to play this role knowing his team mates will be positioned to cover any gaps he leaves free and knowing his positioning will not affect the shape of the team (See Gerrard at Liverpool). So yeah the defensive midfielder is becoming more popular rightly or wrongly and there are many pros and cons to having one but I don't think they are essential. However with the multi-million pounds being pumped into the game and managers becoming more cautious as a knock on effect I think they're here to stay for some time yet. This also applies to the box-to-box midfilder. As formations become more diciplined the need to fill a particular role in the team will become more crucial which spells troube for a position that improves football matches (from a viewing perspective) when it is played in the right manner.

Been saying this for a while now, I really fancy them for the top five this season. Last season they were a back four away from having a very good year. They have creativity and industriousness in the middle, pace and great delivery from the wings and a big strong forward up top. If they can continue keeping clean sheets I can only see them improving again this season.

It's far too easy to blame yesterdays display on Kinnear. When we employed him, for me, he was nothing more than an unknown quantity. He wanted to get his name back on the footballing scene and he actually had the bollocks to take on a club in a dark situation. It was a situation where the opportunity was (and still is) there for him to get himself a job, whether as manager of our team or of another. Yesterday showed he is going to be no messiah, but should he take the heat for the performance? I'm not so sure. I have no complaints about the side that was fielded, it was a team with a bit of confidence after a battling display against Man City. First half was a typical derby display I expected no less. Both sides went for it and the half finished level, the game was there to be won and this is where the problems began to creep in. Second half the midfield became over-ran and consequently the defence had no protection and the strikers no service. Butt was his usual sloppy-self, Guthrie was on best behaviour after a booking and the wingers didn't get involved. Now in the scenario surely some responsability has to be taken on both sides. Butt, on the field as captain, not to mention other players have to start earning their keep. Why didn't the wingers tuck in? Why didn't the strikers drop a bit deeper? Both of these would have helped shift the midfield battle back in our favour and surely it's up to the skipper must see these things. Similarly why didn't Kinnear replace Guthrie or one of the wingers who were having little influence in the game. I know, eventually he did but by then the damage had been done. Also surely Kinnear must have noticed the the midfield was struggling, why didn't he pass on a message to Butt? It became evident yesterday Kinnear isn't brilliant at thinking on his feet, but to write him off already is just pathetic, it's as though some fans couldn't wait for a bad result so they could give us the old "I told you so" speech. There's no doubt this result has been blown out of proportion. The fact it was a local derby and the recent s*** we've had to endure hasn't exactly helped matters, but then I suppose that's the point. Kinnear was the only one brave enough to take this job. Is he a hero or is he just bonkers? I don't know. The fact is until we clear the fallout from this mess up no one is going to be able to do an effective job at this club. Yes, Kinnear didn't cover himself in glory yesterday but there again neither did the players. He may of shown glimpses that he isn't able to cut it in the big time but surely it's too soon to tell? So do I blame Kinnear for yesterdays result? A little, same goes for the lads on the park, but I still look at the likes of Ashley, Wise and Keegan before I go laying the blame on his doorstep.

It's been coming like a mile of bad road but awful timing with an important match tomorrow.

At the end of the day we've known he was s*** for ages, we've said for ages he should be replaced, its one of the many areas we need to strengthen. If we truly want to go back to the days of Champions League football we need a deep squad something we've not got by any standard. His minds good but his poor speed and tackling is f***ing us over constantly. Im starting to debate his reading of the game with examples like Everton and Hull penalties. Yet some fans would still have him in the side. Why not drop Guthrie back into the deeper role and have Barton, Geremi or N'Zogbia playing attacking midfield, it can't be any worse can it? People talk about needing a new attacking midfielder but a new defensive midfielder is just as vital. The defence will never improve until we are capable of at first winning and then retaining the ball in midfield.