Kid Icarus

Don't begrudge anyone that at all like.

You see all of the comments on here and on Twitter from Newcastle fans excusing or deflecting away from Saudi human rights abuses who wouldn't be doing any excusing or deflecting if they weren't buying the football team they support? That's just one part of how it works. Once they revitalise the region that's another step among people who might not even necessarily follow football - 'say what you will about the Saudis, but they've done wonders for the region' will be something we're likely to hear a lot imo. This is a good article on it - https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/manchester-city-abu-dhabi-uae-sports-washing-199116 It works both ways though. By adopting a British football club they also have to buy into how we do sport. When they show Newcastle matches in Saudi Arabia, they'll be seeing women at football games, probably the odd close up of someone swilling lager, etc. All this filters back into their society as well, hopefully it will improve it. The alternative is to be like Isis or North Korea, and just ban everything and refuse interaction with the outside world full stop. Same goes for us, we could also, as a country, just tell Saudi Arabia to do one, but we don't, if anything they are key trade partners. Does that mean their regime is any less reprehensible? No, but it does show that when we as a country aren't prepared to put our foot down because it suits our interests not to, then it's not the job of Newcastle fans to f*** over our own club to satisfy Martin Samuels and other c***s like him. No one has said it's our responsibility of our fans to do anything tbf, just that we shouldn't be manipulated into excusing or glorifying their actions because they might improve the fortunes of our favourite football team. Having interaction isn't the issue though, it's the nature of the interaction. If the interactions our country is having with the Saudi's was part of a U.N Human Rights improvement initiative or something, fair enough, but our country's interaction has been to sell them weapons so they can bomb children's hospitals in Yemen, and our club and city's interaction will likely be to overlook their human rights record because they've improved our material interests. I don't think we should underestimate how comfortable power is with having blatant double standards. The man who's buying the club who you say will have to buy in our way of doing sport, currently has a Saudi princess under house arrest for wanting exactly the reforms and improvements you're saying could filter back to their society and improve it.

To be completely honest I hadn't looked at who the potential owner was at that point I'd probably not be posting at all if it wasn't for who he is and for being bored and in isolation. I stopped caring about the club around last July, but I do care about this piece of shit turning around the public perception of him and the Saudis among the people in our city.

You see all of the comments on here and on Twitter from Newcastle fans excusing or deflecting away from Saudi human rights abuses who wouldn't be doing any excusing or deflecting if they weren't buying the football team they support? That's just one part of how it works. Once they revitalise the region that's another step among people who might not even necessarily follow football - 'say what you will about the Saudis, but they've done wonders for the region' will be something we're likely to hear a lot imo. This is a good article on it - https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/manchester-city-abu-dhabi-uae-sports-washing-199116

All this post has done is just show everyone that you've never been in the chat section tbh. There's quite literally a thread on the Saudi's that's been there since 2015 and likewise the U.S thread. Plenty on here put the graft in for political parties, organisations, charities, and in QuakesMag's case has even made documentaries about this sort of stuff. You're just showing your own ignorance by assuming this has only been brought up now tbh. Again though, framing not wanting the football club to be owned by literal murders isn't a PC bollocks like. It's just not.

Probably should have included that in my post tbh, but just thought it would be a given.

The answer to that is simple, they do. https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/national-security/ good point. The likes of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have been critical of the USG for as long as they've existed. I wasnt looking but wasnt aware of Amnesty condemning the Wilder Fury fight. The U.S doesn't use sport, that's the difference. They largely represent the west and (unfortunately) the overwhelmingly popular opinion in the west is that they're the good guys, so they don’t need to do it. Imo a much better U.S comparison would be the Chicago School of Economics whitewashing the U.S foreign regime change by pushing laissez faire capitalism in universities around the world, or the U.S missionaries who’ve done the same but with Christianity. The point being, A.I has still condemned the U.S for its atrocities.

I'd be very surprised if you proved any point with that question tbh, there'll be plenty who won't go and those that do aren't disqualified from stating a preference for non-murdering owners or indulging in unparalleled whataboutisms.

Well, if you're not ok with it, then just walk away. Or watch with disinterest and disapproval if you like. For me it's always been about wanting to watch a successful Newcastle team, I'll leave the politics to other people. If PIF are passed fit to be owners by those who are charged with these duties, then that's that far as I'm concerned. I will certainly enjoy watching Newcastle become a proper football club again, I don't think it will cost me much at all. This ... Will they walk away though ? Or will they find an excuse to attend whilst attempting to claim the moral high ground as opposed to the poor beknighted masses ? I can understand not wanting to be associated with the Saudis tbh, but everyone has their own limit. I sympathise with those who feel it more strongly, I would hate not to be able to enjoy being part of a successful NUFC. For me that would be the cost I couldn't live with. Its telling that they are continually being asked the question : " Will you still attend matches " ? and all you get back is silence ... I'll answer then. No, I won't be attending matches or giving them any money. Happy?

The answer to that is simple, they do. https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/national-security/ good point. The likes of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have been critical of the USG for as long as they've existed. Not only that either, but you know as well as I do that there are plenty on here who've discussed U.S foreign regime change on here over the years, so it's not like folk are being inconsistent.

Tbf it seems pretty obvious that people care about whether others care about the Saudi's human rights record, like. There are people clearly interpreting the personal choices of others as automatic moral chastising of their own.

Over and over and over and over and over, like a monkey with a miniature symbol

https://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/usa/

The answer to that is simple, they do. https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/national-security/

Ah there we go , get the class hatred out of your system You might be happy with framing it as a class trait, but I can assure you other people within the same class aren't. You know very well who he was aiming that statement at ... Yeah, squarely at the people doing it. If it was solely a class issue I'd be agreeing with you but it's not, you've just chosen to interpret it that way or think you speak on behalf of the working class.

Ah there we go , get the class hatred out of your system You might be happy with framing it as a class trait, but I can assure you other people within the same class aren't.

It's possible to support your football club and make whatever decision your conscience is comfortable with without feeling the need to defend baby bombers or indulging in unparalleled whataboutisms, like. You don't need to do both and your participation in something you have no control over but would like to see improved/prefer not to participate in doesn't make you a hypocrite either. If it did make you a hypocrite, the thousands who despise Ashley yet still insist on attending matches and giving him money wouldn't have been using the support the team not the regime excuse for the last 13 years. So why the same people would now feel the need to go beyond that and actually defend someone who's objectively infinitely more revolting than Ashley, I don't know. Conversely anyone not automatically on their knees boot-licking the devil because they might improve their favourite football team's fortunes isn't a snowflake in that situation either, that's an insult reserved for people with IDPol brain, not people uncomfortable with the club they support being owned by one of the most reprehensible people in the world ffs. Absolutely nothing wrong with anything Mr Misery said imo.

Excellent post

For some reason I can't edit my post, but deleted that one bit above because it's a distinction without a difference.

you can have all the systems you like the common problem is humanity itself not the systems. To lay the blame solely at capatalism or whatever else you can name is to ignore the fact theres always lot of scumbags who weasel themselves into positions of power and will try and screw everyone over for their benefit Humanity isn't solely good or bad by nature, it's good and bad by nature. So likewise you can't just say that humanity's to fault so we shouldn't bother with apportioning any blame to systems that support the bad and not attempt to improve. If your premise was correct, civilisation would have never advanced.

Tbf, it's not the best system we have, it's just the only system we have and it collapses on average every 7 to 10 years. Funnily enough the same point you're making was made endlessly about feudalism before capitalism began. There aren't different forms of capitalism either really, only restricted versions that will always always fight to be unrestricted. Probably something for another thread as a wider discussion like, but it's undeniable that it relates to this discussion though, because capitalism is responsible for ripping the soul out of football, and more or less anything that can be monetised.

Although I dunno if you're making that as a side point to this or as an excuse.

Wrong thread for discussion on capitalism. Just as relevant as it would be in the Covid-19 thread tbh

Good stuff Greg.

It's more cultural cleaning, no? The UK policy with the Saudis is already: