St. Maximin

To be honest I completely agree mate, but the issue here with Lampard (or other Tory voters) relates to hatred towards him for his views (to which he has barely publicly mentioned) rather than the party itself. Hating a party is part of politics and there shouldn’t be complaints from me at your opinion on them, even if I didn’t agree

He has mentioned previously that he votes Tory and wanted David Cameron to win an election. I don’t think he has specifically got into depth over what he likes about them or Cameron. If that’s enough to despise the bloke then we should despise each and every Tory voter, but we all know politics is more nuanced than that and on a personal note I’d rather not be a left-leaning voter full of hatred, but each to their own.

Nah, it’s not. This started because people hate Lampard because “he’s a Tory cunt”. Not because he specifically said he has those views you referenced. Simply because he commits the crime the majority of UK voters, including people you and I might see every day, happened to do. I am sure a lot of Tory voters don’t think like that. They just might have one or two reasons that make it more appealing to them, no matter how well thought out or illogical their reasons might actually be. Also you say right-wing views are intolerant, but I think that’s a very specific set of views given a range of views on various topics can be deemed left or right.

Wow, what have I started? I don’t have any issue with resentment towards the Tories, but that wasn’t the issue here. It’s the resentment for anyone who has a different viewpoint and yes the left has to accept they can be responsible. There’s no need to argue with that viewpoint - you can hold left-wing views and have a general hatred for right-wing views, but surely an intolerance for someone just for voting for a right-wing party is ridiculous and indefensible? As we all know politics is complex and voting for a party doesn’t mean you support all their views. You don’t need to look far to see how much Labour has been divided in recent years. Each to their own if you don’t rate Lampard or things he’s said annoy you, but this “he’s a Tory cunt” attitude is just tribalistic and doesn’t reflect well on the left.

Well my mate I spoke too yesterday said he didn’t expect Lampard to do well initially, but thinks survival is good enough and he expects better from him next year, with a fresh start and new players. Some fans of course treated Rafa terribly from the start. Most of them hated him in the end because he was terrible.

I’m going by what Everton fans have said to me, albeit a limited sample. They follow their team more than us and we get criticised for our opinions on our managers. I wasn’t pretending he has done a brilliant job as a manager, but the comments from that journalist seem pretty reasonable. PFM is a silly term and I don’t really care who a manager voted for. Lots of people vote Tory as you know. I don’t agree with them but they certainly aren’t all tossers. Though I realise anything remotely in defence of them is prohibited here and makes me one too so I’ll shut up.

They have a long way to go but those comments seem reasonable though. Even if they are still pretty crap, there seems to be a lot more fight and positivity around than the time before Rafa was sacked. Not really sure why people dislike Lampard anyway but each to their own.

He is right though. Speaking to Everton fans, they are a lot happier with how they’ve been playing since Lampard came in and feel he’s helped transform the team morale. Rafa before was a disaster and Lampard had to pick up a mess, so the transformation won’t come without struggles.

Fair, I think you’ve summed this up very well ? To be honest I know this might make me sound like a Saudi apologist, but quite ironically we shouldn’t see things in black and white. The PIF has over 1000 people and I’m sure many have good intentions and don’t support all of the kingdom’s actions. When people talk about us having the most evil owners possible, they’re clearly being selective over who they’re specifically referring to to suit their opinion, rather than as a whole (same the other way when referring to Staveley and co). It’s perfectly reasonable to see Saudi Arabia in some positive lights while acknowledging there are horrendous human rights issues that can’t be ignored. That this is now happening doesn’t mean the latter gets replaced - almost like some morally superior people want us to hate everything about the country. As has been raised before people are selective over what angers them when it comes to sport. Sky Sports is showing tourism adverts for Saudi Arabia - this is far less subtle rebranding than a short the team will barely ever wear and will barely sell here. Good excuse for some online attention though.

I don’t think journalists explain why sportswashing is effective because it isn’t really. I always hear them talking about “the latest disgraceful example of sportswashing” or the like without them really explaining how it’s working or is expected to. The clearest signs of it to me are the minority of Saudi apologists in our fanbase, but in the grand scheme of things their impacts are minimal and I doubt the main target of the takeover. Sure we would effectively be advertising their ‘brand’ through this, whether we like it or not (I’d rather not), but it’s done for economic purposes.

The sportswashing claims were always going to occur, but as you’ve mentioned it’s to have economic impacts and really that’s what supposed sportswashing attempts are about. I’m pretty sure they aren’t to ‘please’ us worthy westerners while finding some mysterious way to disguise their human rights abuses - they ultimately need to diversify their economy while competing with the other economies in their region. Won’t stop the morally superior journalists from complaining though. For the record I do feel uncomfortable about the blatantly obvious KSA links, but we’re 80% owned by them so can’t really be in denial over the links.

I think he isn’t tbh. You get strikers playing in mid table teams that don’t have his goal record, yet he consistently plays for a terrible team that finishes bottom. Same with Mitrovic. I’m sure most of these ‘Championship strikers’ would score plenty with reasonable service.

Victor Anichebe DJ Campbell

I always think Perez exemplifies the harsh treatment that attacking midfielders/wingers who also can play as strikers get (another example being Rashford, poor as he’s been recently). They don’t play as out-and-out strikers and play positions not much different to wingers that won’t get near to double figures in goals, but don’t get near the same level of criticism. Pretty sure Perez has often played a very similar to role to Fraser and Almiron, who don’t get abuse despite very low goals and assists numbers.

Of course but a comparison is always going to be flawed. Rafa was there from the start of the season and had no poor run of form to pick them up from, whereas Lampard had to take over a team near the relegation zone where morale was clearly very low having lost 9 from 13 - form was also even worse therefore. Whatever other issues there are at that club (loads I imagine), Rafa was terrible.

I don’t see much evidence they’d be in a much better position, if at all, if he’d stayed. They were on the decline for weeks before his sacking, so it’s not like Lampard has made them any worse really. The guy is a legend but it won’t work out everywhere for him and it’s fair to say he made mistakes there if the people that follow the club think so. Surely Lampard was faced with a pretty uphill task anyway given the sorry state of the team when he took over, as opposed to Rafa at the season start, so Rafa has to take blame for that even if the club’s issues do run much deeper.

To be fair while I always wanted him to get a good few months, I was questioning whether he could make us solid enough for a relegation battle. Delighted he’s proven me wrong and gone above that!

Should have got Rafa in while we had the chance tbh.

The new James Perch.

Sorry for the ignorance, but what is ‘athletic’ anyway?! Physical attributes combined? Only so many centre mids have them all I’d have thought. Certainly makes up for it with his technical ability! Also he’s mint.

Fair enough He’s a knob and a crap manager but they can still get things right from time to time. His overall record shows his limitations though. The HBA handling criticism I find interesting also, as I was fuming at it but tbf Pardew is hardly alone there. The player seems to fall out with everyone who manages him… at some point the player might be part of the problem

These things are easy to say, but he was the manager then so you can’t just take all that away from him and it’s how managers are judged ultimately. When you look at the bigger picture and the other three years though you can judge his overall performance much better. He’s still a bad manager as we’ve seen at his other clubs and a personality to match also. Still, there’s nothing wrong with looking back fondly on his time here.

To be fair looking back fondly on his time isn’t the same as looking back fondly on him. We had some great moments then, especially with that 5th place finish. I look back fondly on that year of course and then some fun nights in Europe. FWIW there was a load of filth in there but maybe he got something right also to help us do so well that year (having a great team and Liverpool and Chelsea being poor were the main reasons mind). Also when he left we were midtable and then almost got relegated under the best coach in the league and did the following year.

I’ll happily admit he was frustrating me tonight, but I find some of the criticism he gets very harsh. He’s been excellent for most of his time here - some poor recent performances having potentially not been fully fit firstly shouldn’t detract from that, but also I think we’re used to him being so good that we judge him much more harshly. Granted he is frustrating given his ability, but his ability is actually ridiculous - I don’t know how many of the best attacking players in the world have the combined pace and dribbling ability that compares with his, yet he plays for us and not a CL club, so he’s obviously going to be inconsistent and make bad decisions etc. Pretty sure I’d almost always take that kind of player (who is also clearly out of form) than one of those wingers you can “trust” but ultimately just isn’t very good (thinking Ritchie, Gouffran, Jonas etc.).