The Times today speculated that the players have turned on Allardyce

[Guest Ridzuan]

Well the Guardian said the same thing but in a different manner.

 

Football managers on losing streaks often resemble men stuck in lifts, randomly pressing buttons in the hope that one stab of a forefinger might suddenly end their torment. Sometimes tea-cup throwing galvanises players, on other occasions they respond to bonding breaks in the sun, the introduction of a new first-team coach or perhaps even a few sessions with a psychologist.

 

Sam Allardyce, along with his similarly troubled north-east peers, Roy Keane and Gareth Southgate, has done angry in recent weeks but received little response from his Newcastle United squad. Accordingly, after Saturday's comprehensive 3-0 home defeat by Liverpool, the former Bolton manager tried placing things on a more personal footing.

 

Newcastle's players apparently looked suitably awkward as Allardyce asked them if they did not like him and whether they were unhappy with his training methods. According to insiders, he was largely met by "a wall of silence" punctuated by the odd mumbled response. Earlier that day a leak, either direct or indirect, from the squad had ended up as a newspaper story claiming that Allardyce had lost the dressing room.

Joey Barton and Alan Smith have defended their manager, insisting that the reverse is true, but others, including James Milner and, more significantly, Michael Owen are reputed to be less enamoured with a man short-listed for the England job 18 months ago.

 

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/11/27/all_paths_leads_to_failure_in.html

 

Theres more to it but I dont think thats important.Seems the confidence in the dressing room is very low at the moment,as was expected and its going to get worse  if we lose the next 2 games,which looks likely to be the case.

 

[Cronky]

I doubt if it's Allardyce's personality or training methods that's the issue. Judging from what players have said about him in the past, those aren't weak areas.

 

My hunch is that with all this chopping and changing, some players feel that they are being dropped unfairly. Milner, Given, Geremi and Martins spring to mind. Owen might also feel he's being asked to play a role that doesn't suit him and, as with Eriksson in the World Cup, he's reluctant to budge. Perhaps Allardyce won't assert himself with Owen, and the other players are seeing the gaffer make allowances for Owen while at the same time they are having to adjust for the sake of the team.

 

Yeah, yeah, it's all speculation. Something's not right though, and I just get the feeling that the situation would be a lot simpler if Owen wasn't there.

[Keefaz]

I know Oba's come out with quotes saying he really likes Big Sam. If the players have a grievance it's up to one of the senior players to have a chat with Sam and get it sorted.

[buzza]

I know Sam has his own philosophy on how he wants teams to play and this will obviously take time, players and adaptation from the crowd. Whether he will get this is another matter as we all want to see good flowing football which is not what we are seeing. I wouldn't mind seeing a chelsea-esque 4-3-3 either but...

I think that Sam is so confident that his system works that he is shoehorning players into it who really don't fit (milner, zoggy, smith..etc.) e.g. Sam's 4-3-3

I think to get the maximum from our team he would have to play more attacking minded football, simpler tactics (that team understands) as I think we have better players as attacking midfielders/forwards than they are at defending or hanging on to a lead e.g.

zoggy --- Barton---emre---milner

--------smith/vid---owen/martins-----

 

versus

 

butt---emre---milner

smith----viduka---geremi

 

The way to get confidence with players is to win games, the way to win games is solely done by scoring goals, at this moment in time we are playing or lining up in a manner which seems to only want to "not lose" a game and perhaps nick a win if we are lucky. In my opinion we won't gain confidence playing a rigid containing game but we will if we oppose ourselves on the other team and put them on the back foot not us, obviously taking up more defensive positions when they have the ball. The crowd will also sense this and would perhaps not be so bitter if we actually looked like we "could have" won the game when we lose...

 

I like Sam and I think he has taken us forward (methods, facility renovations, innovations, signings) in such a small spacxe of time

but I think he is cutting his nose to spite his face at the moment with his inflexibility to team selection and what is best for the team (philosophy).... Come on mate! take a step back and get a perspective...please!

 

Please do not try and  shoot down my comments for lack of experience; I play five a side once a week and if I had large teeth and a pigtail my mates would call me Ronaldinho. so there!

[Guest shaun11177]

Actually i think you are spot on, Sam likes 433 but has discovered you cant play it with this set of players, why it took this tactical genius 8 games to work it out i have no idea as most fans had worked it out before a ball was kicked. So Plan A has gone out the window.

Plan B seemed to be to play ultra defensive and for Owen to somehow score enough goals to get us in the top half of the table-basically the Dalglish model of play. This is now in the dustbin. Plan C is er well there isnt one.

The situation of Smith shows the confusion-signed purely because he was available but with the belief from Sam that he could play in midfield well he can but not well enough, according to Sam he was to be the link between midfield and attack but i have not seen any sign of this. It would have been far more sensible to spend the 6m on a replacement for Solano.

Mort has hit it on the head he says Sam is still searching for the right combination and basically he isnt getting any more money until he can prove he knows what he is doing with this set of players .i.e we are not going to throw money at the problem.

 

[Dunedin]

I agree that the owners want evidence that BS can actually buy the right players. However what worries me is the way he is wasting the talent at his disposal now. Also, if he sells Taylor and Nzogbia I will be seriously pissed off. These better be rumours only. I need convincing that the dressing room is still on side as I remain extremely worried at the state of things at the moment. The only really thing clear to me at the moment is that there is something desperately wrong with the whole club. Whether this can be put right over the next 5 or 6 games remains the question.

[buzza]

It is normal that the players lose confidence in their manager after a run of bad games, after all they are the one who should be able to deliver a solution to the bad play. Because we aren't in the training sessions every day we can't see if he is doing things to change this run or whether he is stubborn and set in his ways so much that he won't admit they aren't working and refuses to change. This latter option WILL turn the players against him.

It's obvious to all of us that playing players out of position won't get the best out of them and that by playing defensively we won't beat many teams, it's as simple as that!!

[Skirge]

I have heard a few mumblings about him not getting on with players, such as Shay and Owen. God knows how true it is though, but then again they do not seem like a team doing their best for their manager do they.

[Rich]

 

 

 

At this stage last season we were 17th in the table, having only won 3 of our opening 14 games. We had 13 points and had scored 6 goals at SJP in 7 games.

 

This season we're 11th in the table, having won 5 of our opening 13 games, we have 18 points and have scored 11 goals at SJP in 7 games.

 

There is progress being made, believe it or not. Nobody ever claimed it would be an instant rise.

 

Stevie Wonder could have took over the team and made progress on the shite from last season, point still is that weve been crap this season, and getting worse by the game. Things look ok (nothing special) after the Everton and Spuds results (2 teams there for the beating) but now things look far from great.

 

Aye, but that's blatantly obvious to all and sundry. Nobody is saying otherwise. It's just not as bad as the reaction on Saturday would have us believe. We're nowhere near the bottom three, for starters.

 

I'm personally frustrated that Allardyce is taking this much stick at such an early stage when compared to Roeder and Souness, two managers who have proven themselves to be massively inferior to our current boss. He is paying the ongoing price for the problems brought about since Bobby Robson was sacked more than anything. Aye, it hasn't been a pretty start but there has been a hell of a lot of change flying around at St. James' since May - the whole club is undergoing an overhaul.

 

Personally I'm willing to allow for bad performances and embarrassing losses far more than I was last season, because the progress is plain to see, if we were 17th again and if we'd been as bad as last season then I'd be a lot more worried than I am. People's expectations have, rightly or wrongly, been inflated by the takeover and by the end of Shepherd.

 

Last season I couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, the whole club was rotten from top to bottom, but these days I can, thanks in no small part to our new owner and manager. This is the important point.

[James]

I just wish we went back to playing the types of teams that played against Everton and West Ham.

[Dave]

Agree James. He's jst trying to be a bit too clever right now and it's backfiring badly.

[ChezGiven]

Just an observation but it is probably largely the same people chanting for Allardyce to go on saturday who were chanting for Shepherd to go after Sheff Utd last year. What did they want again? Oh yeah that was it, a rich new owner and a manager with proven success in the prem.

 

Theres something deeply profound to be learnt from that but not sure what it is. 

[Skirge]

Fact is the teams we have beaten have been very poor, anyone that have given us a game has beaten us or at least taken a point.

We had an okay start to the season but not because of our own quality and now we are playing teams that have found a bit of form we are doing crap against them. Sam is out of his depth if he does not play long ball football. The bigger problem is we do not have the right players to do his everyone drop back and close the door style of defending, we drop back to deep and look totally clueless as what to do after that.

 

The first people that will know if a manager is up to it or not is the players and they really do not seem to be responding to Big Sam's plans..

[tmonkey]

Just an observation but it is probably largely the same people chanting for Allardyce to go on saturday who were chanting for Shepherd to go after Sheff Utd last year. What did they want again? Oh yeah that was it, a rich new owner and a manager with proven success in the prem.

 

Theres something deeply profound to be learnt from that but not sure what it is. 

 

Dont wish for something better, otherwise you might just get it...

 

...or something. I think. Not sure.

 

To be fair, regardless of performances, we were lucky for that Ashley did take over, given the true level of debt that according to our new chairman, would have been a noose around the club's neck, and explains why the Halls were so desperate to get rid.

[Rich]

Just an observation but it is probably largely the same people chanting for Allardyce to go on saturday who were chanting for Shepherd to go after Sheff Utd last year. What did they want again? Oh yeah that was it, a rich new owner and a manager with proven success in the prem.

 

Theres something deeply profound to be learnt from that but not sure what it is. 

 

It's surely just indicitive of modern society?

 

The only thing I take heart from is that we're not the only ones. I'd love to see what fans of other teams would be like after what we've been through since 1969 here.

 

I do also think that a lot of our fans see success as some sort of "divine right" for us because we turn up and pay the admission fee in our droves, the media spin on the "passionate Geordie crowd" (really pretty much all that can be said about us for a long time now when compared to other clubs' recent success) has gone to some people's heads. We're becoming spoiled brats, by and large, which is odd considering the lack of success.

 

I could understand that mentality if the team got awesome, unequivocal backing for the vast majority of proceedings... but when people come in, sit on their arse and demand "entertain me", they can fuck off in my book.

 

That's not what being a football fan is... or was.

[ChezGiven]

Just an observation but it is probably largely the same people chanting for Allardyce to go on saturday who were chanting for Shepherd to go after Sheff Utd last year. What did they want again? Oh yeah that was it, a rich new owner and a manager with proven success in the prem.

 

Theres something deeply profound to be learnt from that but not sure what it is. 

 

It's surely just indicitive of modern society?

 

The only thing I take heart from is that we're not the only ones. I'd love to see what fans of other teams would be like after what we've been through since 1969 here.

 

I do also think that a lot of our fans see success as some sort of "divine right" for us because we turn up and pay the admission fee in our droves, the media spin on the "passionate Geordie crowd" (really pretty much all that can be said about us for a long time now when compared to other clubs' recent success) has gone to some people's heads. We're becoming spoiled brats, by and large, which is odd considering the lack of success.

 

I could understand that mentality if the team got awesome, unequivocal backing for the vast majority of proceedings... but when people come in, sit on their arse and demand "entertain me", they can fuck off in my book.

 

That's not what being a football fan is... or was.

 

The willingness to push the implode button and scream in desperation says more about the psychology of our fans than most.

 

Its not just this season or last though is it, its been like this since Robson's last season.

[Rich]

I genuinely believe the "near misses" of the last decade or so have broken the camel's back, as it were, which is understandable for the older blokes who've been through years of torture. If anyone was going to do it for us it would have been Keegan or Robson, that would have been perfect, the onus of this now falls at the door of one man, in my eyes. Big Al. Plenty of other, younger, people don't really have an excuse though. People like myself, for instance, who've only supported properly in the Premiership years.

 

The league in 95/96, the FA Cup finals of 98/99, the Champions' League Qualifier against Partizan/the UEFA Semi-Final loss to Marseille in the same season and the following year's escapades in the UEFA/FA Cup have all been major, major blows to the fanbase, consciously or subconsciously - people are simply becoming more and more desperate for success, which is making it harder and harder to attain. It is going to take a gargantuan effort and a lot of money to do the business here, and I don't see it happening in the immediate future.

 

I'm not sure anyone could manage this club effectively and to their potential with majority backing these days - especially not a former Sunderland player who wasn't a popular choice to begin with - simply because of the pressure and the nature of our support. Getting a new chairman with a lot of cash in has been a big stride forward, but it won't be enough alone, we then need the right manager, the right backing and the right players. None of which I'm entirely confident we currently have - but is that so surprising 6 months in?

 

The fans need to give things a chance, they need to take a step back and think about what they say/do - especially in St. James' on a matchday - people have to be aware that what they do and how they react has a big role to play in what happens on AND off the park. I'm not advocating blind loyalty to the cause, but displays like we saw on Saturday are bang out of order and won't do much good to anybody.

[Guest shaun11177]

Well lets be clear the supporters at St James are mostly over 40-veterans of support from the 70s-they are not all Keegan bandwagon jumpers as some would have us believe. Also this myth that if everyone supported and never criticized the team everything would be rosier in the garden-that happened in the 70s and 80s and we never did anything in footballing terms.

Look at the support of Real Madrid and Barcelona if they are not winning they get it big style from the fans but it doesnt stop them been successful-good players win titles whatever the style of play.

The weakness of Newcastle has been the supporters blind loyalty at times, the club has got away with producing utter rubbish at times both on and off the field.

The frustration has built up and built up and it does make it more difficult-Capello said the toughest title he won was at Roma because they had never won anything for ages so every loss was treated like a major major setback and every win like the club are world beaters.

All the vast majority want is to see is a little progress for the large sums of money they put into the club.

[Guest Elan]

Well lets be clear the supporters at St James are mostly over 40-veterans of support from the 70s-they are not all Keegan bandwagon jumpers as some would have us believe. Also this myth that if everyone supported and never criticized the team everything would be rosier in the garden-that happened in the 70s and 80s and we never did anything in footballing terms.

Look at the support of Real Madrid and Barcelona if they are not winning they get it big style from the fans but it doesnt stop them been successful-good players win titles whatever the style of play.

The weakness of Newcastle has been the supporters blind loyalty at times, the club has got away with producing utter rubbish at times both on and off the field.

The frustration has built up and built up and it does make it more difficult-Capello said the toughest title he won was at Roma because they had never won anything for ages so every loss was treated like a major major setback and every win like the club are world beaters.

All the vast majority want is to see is a little progress for the large sums of money they put into the club.

 

6000 fans going to Blackburn apparantly, utter madness

[UV]

Personally I'm willing to allow for bad performances and embarrassing losses far more than I was last season, because the progress is plain to see, if we were 17th again and if we'd been as bad as last season then I'd be a lot more worried than I am.

 

It is? I've missed it then.

Please enlighten me as to the visible progress made by Allardyce.

[Guest alex]

We're actually better off than this stage last season and we'd had some results that were just as bad. I'm not saying there has been much palpable progress on the pitch but saying it's far worse than last season shows just what short memories people have. We'd already lost to the likes of Fulham and Sheff Utd at home at the same point last year.

[Toon Amy]

Bobby Robson - 11th and 11th first 2 seasons. We gave him time and it came right.

 

Last season we finished 13th.

 

We are currently 11th. I can understand frustration with the performances, but to just give up completely?

 

I can't understand that, and we will look like the mongs of the Premier League if we sack another manager so soon.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Come on Janitor. You cannot say that there is obvious progress.

 

The quality of football has been far worse than last season so far. You can say we've got more points than last year, but we'd already played Man Utd away and Arsenal away by this time last year.

 

At least with Roeder you could see what he was trying to do.... but he rarely managed it.

 

I'm struggling to see what Sam's ideas (on a matchday) are.

 

That said, I'm willing to give him time, but if things haven't improved by the end of December (better tactics, team selections, substitutions and results) then I don't see how he deserves it.

 

 

 

No it hasn't.  Last season was awful about 90% of the time.  People are just looking back and pretending it wasn't.

[Parky]

Bobby Robson - 11th and 11th first 2 seasons. We gave him time and it came right.

 

Last season we finished 13th.

 

We are currently 11th. I can understand frustration with the performances, but to just give up completely?

 

I can't understand that, and we will look like the mongs of the Premier League if we sack another manager so soon.

 

Excellent point about SBR.

[TRon]

Bobby Robson - 11th and 11th first 2 seasons. We gave him time and it came right.

 

Last season we finished 13th.

 

We are currently 11th. I can understand frustration with the performances, but to just give up completely?

 

I can't understand that, and we will look like the mongs of the Premier League if we sack another manager so soon.

 

Excellent point about SBR.

 

SBR was making progress, not trying to get ball players to lump it long to small strikers like Sam has done at times this season.