Guest Knightrider Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Like many of you, this season has left me scratching my head wondering just what has happened to our manager who when he flew into the job via a helicopter back in the summer was very much the right man for the job. A club tailor made for his management techniques. Indeed after 8 years at a small club Newcastle United was the right club for Big Sam, a big job for a man with big ideas, big plans and an even bigger gob. 7 months on though and he's looking like the wrong man and with every defeat a dead man. What has happened? This forum is like an encyclopedia of what's happened, what's went wrong, who is to blame and what needs done to change things, and has pretty much exhausted every avenue in the search for the truth. An elusive hunt thus far. I say that because despite a growing consensus that Allardyce isn't good enough, he is. But it's not happening for him, the players and what we all care about more than anything else, our beloved club. There is no escaping that and no matter what the manager does, it's still the same old same old and if anything, things are just getting worse. Of course time is a great healer and money to strengthen would help, but the more I think about it the more I'm wondering whether it's not Newcastle United that necessarily needs to break free from Sam Allardyce, but whether the man himself needs to break free from football itself for a while, something he's never experienced for 8 solid years. He literally went from one job to another when he took us over, without a real break. A job as we all know that is completely different to Bolton Wanderers in every single aspect. But it looks like the manager hasn't quite grasped that and is still working by the same (successful) principles he carved out for himself at the Reebok, only without the same backroom staff (the key figures), players and quite significantly the same culture. 8 years in a fully hands on job the way Big Sam does things in the environment he had created at Bolton can take it's toll and probably has. To what extent I think we're finding out. This isn't the real Sam Allardyce. The Sam Allardyce of Bolton fame wasn't this clueless, indecisive, scattergun type manager who struggles with the basics. Right club, right job, right time for the club, right manager. But... Right time for Sam Allardyce? I'm not so sure it is with hindsight. Perhaps a year off to rinse Bolton out of his hair and to free the mind up would sound rather appealing today to our underfire manager. Unless he leads us to glory at Wembley in May, I think that's something he may well have to do. He's a defeat to Stoke away from losing his job in my opinion. :-[ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I think you are right, he's lost the plot. He's turned into Souness/Roeder and can't get himself out of it. But why should we tolerate any more of his shite? He's not good enough in this form and were the ones that yet again are suffering, he's chasing the pay off, he'll get sacked and he won't be seen again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 He hasnt got the players to play his way,he hasn't shown any forward thinking with the amount of Africans he has signed.He over complicates tactically.He plays negative yet unsuccessful style of football.He wasted 11m quid on Barton and Smith.He has taken one point from the two games against probably the worst ever Premiership team,and was lucky to do so.He has presided over some of the worst performances i've seen from a Toon team-away defeats at Reading,Derby and Wigan. I advocated continuity at the start of his tenure,but lets be honest-this bloke has been as inept as either Roeder or Souness.He needs not just good perfrmances but results quick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Totally disagree with this 'He's one match away from' thing. I tend to the incremental nature of it; that is one bad performance after another bad performance and so on on BUT we were canny in the first half last night. I wasn't and am still not convinced but he's got my support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Totally disagree with this 'He's one match away from' thing. I tend to the incremental nature of it; that is one bad performance after another bad performance and so on on BUT we were canny in the first half last night. I wasn't and am still not convinced but he's got my support. I don't mean he has one game literally, I mean if we get knocked out of the FA Cup, that'll be him gone whether it's after that or in May, there will be no turning back for him from that point on. I honestly believe his only way out of this would be to win the FA Cup. That's the only thing he could give the new owner, Chairman and fans as a peace offering to bide himself the time he clearly craves and needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I'll worry considerably for him if we were lose to Stoke, but i genuinely don't believe Mort has someone else lined up, and i don't believe Mort wants to sack Sam. Using hindsight, it's a realistic theory that you've got, HTT. Maybe it was too soon. I've still got faith though. Just let this season trundle along. There's neeone else at the moment and we could prosper from using patience. [/broken record] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nufcjmc Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I am sure i remember when he left Bolton it was supposedly for a break from football then he gets offered a big challenge in us that he felt he could do but mentally he may have still wanted the break. Only time will tell I voted to loose him now but agree with HTT's comment in a previous thread that it would have to be for someone that was a mark improvement and not just someone of equal ability, we are somewhat a poison challace and need a special sort of manager to turn it round. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Btw I'm not saying this is the reason why we're shite at the moment, I am saying it could be why Big Sam's shite at the moment though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I still tend to the view that we have forgotten how crap we were last season and therefore don't appreciate what a big job Sam's got on. Not my choice; bothered by BWFC second half of last season but he's ours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Btw I'm not saying this is the reason why we're shite at the moment, I am saying it could be why Big Sam's shite at the moment though. Do you think it might have been better for him personally (not the club) if FS has stayed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 It's Bolton's second half of the season that could indicate a manager who needed a break, that and the whole England job thing which would be that kind of job with long breaks in between matches. Plus didn't he say a few years back he planned to retire early. I reckon he's allowed his heart to rule when the Toon job came up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Btw I'm not saying this is the reason why we're shite at the moment, I am saying it could be why Big Sam's shite at the moment though. Do you think it might have been better for him personally (not the club) if FS has stayed? For him, aye probably. I actually think we'd be having a better season because I think FS would have splashed the cash and this threat of the sack wouldn't be lingering even if were not doing too well. The club comes first though and we are much better off as a club without FS today and importantly the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Totally disagree with this 'He's one match away from' thing. I tend to the incremental nature of it; that is one bad performance after another bad performance and so on on BUT we were canny in the first half last night. I wasn't and am still not convinced but he's got my support. I don't mean he has one game literally, I mean if we get knocked out of the FA Cup, that'll be him gone whether it's after that or in May, there will be no turning back for him from that point on. I honestly believe his only way out of this would be to win the FA Cup. That's the only thing he could give the new owner, Chairman and fans as a peace offering to bide himself the time he clearly craves and needs. Not at all, that makes us sound just as bad as the idiotic press makes us out to be. Simply improving things on the pitch* and finishing in a respectable mid table position would be enough for most people to give him a chance. If he started improving against stoke and kept it up I'd be behind him, I just can't see it happening. *No more negative football against poor sides, sensible formation and tactics with players in the right positions (never play Smith in midfield again!) and actually play some football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUFC06 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Right club, right job, right time for the club, right manager. But... NO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Unless he leads us to glory at Wembley in May, I think that's something he may well have to do. Not going to happen. As we'll probably end up playing Spurs in the final, and due to their entire squad coming down with food poisoning again, will then have to use Guy Poyet as an emergency player, who will then no doubt bang in two goals to break our hearts yet again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Right club, right job, right time for the club, right manager. But... NO YES, for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca888 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 A lot of what HTT makes sense to a degree but taking employment out of the football world for a moment, if you left a job with an accountancy firm (as an example) by choice, you would do so to commence re-employment for better cnditions elsewhere almost immediately. The argument about taking a break from employment doesnt measure up here. It was his choice anyway. He could always have turned us down if he really wanted a decent break. I think the major point to the problem relates more to the type of players he has signed being alien to the longball style of football he wants to play. Defenders such as Beye, Rosenhal, Cacapa and Enrique have all come from leagues where long ball football is totally alien to them and all of a sudden, the pace, power and tactics of english football is catching up with them. Sam said he wanted to sign players with premiership experience and yet he has signed an entire back four from outside the premiership. I know he missed out on the likes of Ben Hiam and Distin but neither of them were really going to have a major impact in defence anyway. If he had no other choice but to sign these defenders, he should have bought a creative midfield player for a significant cost (A Riquelme or An Arteta ) who can collect short passes from defenders and supply forwards and wingers rather than purchase the likes of Barton and Smith who both lack any sort of creativity. Unfortunately, it appears now (After the City game) that he is starting to change tactics to a shorter fgorm of the game but it is clear that there is a certain amount of confusiion from the players on what they should be doing and what their roles in the team are. Sam has to get them back to the basics and first critical point is to buy a quality creative central midfielder to bring forwards and wingers into the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUFC06 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Right club, right job, right time for the club, right manager. But... NO YES, for now. NO,NO,NO he is not the right manager for Newcastle United Football Club Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macphisto Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 At the beginning of the season I thought Sam would have got us challenging for the top six. It may still happen, you never know. For me though the big reason why we haven't done well this season is simply because our players are so average and they are now being found out! Even if we had a manager playing the "Newcastle way" we still would not have done much better than what we are doing now. Yes you can say he had money to spend in the summer but we were one of the lowest spenders in the league. Not a big fan of Smith but who else could you get for £6 million who is a consistent quality performer? Yes you can mention Elano but there will always be the exception to the rule. For my mind though you mostly get what you pay for and £6 million these days does not get you much in terms of a quality midfielder. Due to the lack of money and how small our squad was is also another reason why Allardyce had to sacrifice quality over quantity. I think back to the team Robson inherited from Gullit and he had a much better base to work from than Sam Allardyce. Robson had Lee (still had legs in him), Speed, Barton, Solano (much better version than the one we got rid of in the summer), Dyer (I would say he was a lot better around that time, though how much was that down to Robson or the player is a fair point) and Given. All players who Robson could count on and build from. I look at what Sam inherited and really there's not much there, Given, Charles N'zogbia can be a top player if coached properly and possibly Martins if coached the right way but there's not one other player I would be bothered about if they left and just thinking about it I wouldn't be upset if Martins went! Yes Sam should have been doing a lot better against the lower teams and I can't understand some of his decisions/tactics but it's the players who should be taking the blame! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallace Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Maybe he spent too long at Bolton and after 8 years, he is finding it much harder to adapt to a complete new environment than he had expected. Also, I think he is struggling with the press scrutiny and although he has friends in the press, there are others who do not like him and are just going to be mischief-making for the sake of it. At Bolton, he was at one of the lesser clubs in the Greater Manchester area where most of the focus would have been on Man Utd and City. Every decision that he now makes is being discussed to the nth degree by the press and supporters where as before, few would have taken much notice. I am disappointed though as I expected so much more from him. I am not saying I expected us to be near the top of the table but I did expect to see our old failings disappear like losing at places like Wigan. I also thought that with a new board, backroom staff and many new players (who had mostly come from fairly successful clubs) that there would be a new attitude on the pitch so I just cannot understand why it is the same old Newcastle. I also heard so much about his man-management skills and again he has disappointed because he seems to be alienating the players so much. Blaming them in public, dropping them as soon as they make a mistake, changing the team every week etc - I think has contributed to their lack of confidence. Yet former players have had nothing but good words about him. I just can't make sense of it. I was never a fan but I expected us to be a competent team showing gradual improvement but yet again a manager starts to unravel before our eyes at this club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 This Thread = HTT realizing that Big Sam aint gunna cut-it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I completely disagree that he was/is right for us. Bolton were and he is trying to make us a team whose whole ethos is "to stop the other team from playing and then then sneak it". It might be cliche-tastic but that approach is complete at odds with what I believe the majority of fans want and with the club's tradition and history (for what its worth). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I agree with the timing problem, but not because of not having a "football break". The reason is the takeover by Ashley. Let's face it. Without the takeover, everyone will be a lot more patient with Sam's performance and willing to give him 2 seasons for trying. And now people just think "oh yea we got the money and let's see Man City, money can bring instant success, then why wait for that?" While the players may think "he is not the one Ashley want...probably he has no future, then why should I pay 100% effort?" The level of patience towards the manager, either from the fans and from the players, are the lowest I have ever seen for any EPL teams. This is the reason why Sam fails to make it. If our next appointment is even worse than Roeder/Souness (and I'm sure not much of us will really expect a bad manager up next), the fans must be blamed for that and the club deserves another dark age. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Sam allardyce wont get sacked before the end of the season, i bet what little forum credibiltyi have on that. (Providing we dont look like getting relegated) All this talk of a new manager is a little lot premature in my opinion. Is sam actually failing to deliver on our expectations for this season positioning wise? Its all fair and well saying we have big games to come so are inevitably will be doing crap, but the points on the table are THE most important stat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 None of us knows what discussions took place between Allardyce and the Mort/Ashley team in the early days. It did seem that, due to the takeover, some valuable time was lost in the window and targets were missed. It could be that the Ashley side reckon that Sam got a less than fair crack at the market and will stick with him. Ashley has a reputation for sticking with people through adversity (his Finance Director at Sports Direct for one). I'm no ITK - its just a thought, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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