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It's Sunday, it's half twelve, it's number one... it's ASHLEY TO SELL UP!


Wullie

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EXCLUSIVE by ROB SHEPHERD

 

Says it all.

 

it does indeed-if there is one man who who you could set on fire right now would it be him?or ashley cole?

 

anyone know if this is the same bellend this article refers to

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20040518/ai_n12784067

bit strange that the Sun/NOTW should take such a moral high ground against Joey if it is!!!!

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

Dave, assuming he bought us to be a success on the field [as its your view], maybe he - like Simon Jordan - has found that its not what he hoped or thought it would be ? Or maybe the opportunity will come along to make a quick profit ? Either is more than plausible.

 

 

 

There's also the chance that the article is a complete load of bollocks, which is in fact more likely.

 

why is it more likely ? Because you want it to be ? Its a hypothetical question, it isn't impossible, and these reports are happening too often, and paying off the stadium repayments almost definitely makes the club a more saleable asset ?

 

 

 

 

 

Dealing in facts (which is what you like), how many of these stories have we seen so far & how many have been proven to have any trurth in them.

 

The balance of probability surely dictates that its more than likely another load of shite.

 

If you really think the clearing of the stadium debt has been done solely to sell the club, then you're a fool.  You clearly have no idea about finance & business other than what you read in the papers.

 

FWIW I don't really care who owns the club, whether it be Ashley or someone else, so stop trying to tell me what I think, particularly when you've repeatedly made it clear you want shot of him with your usual agenda-driven drivel.

 

 

 

We've been linked with 5 buyers in the last year or so...Can it all be shite??

 

Linked by whom?

 

Eh?

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

Dave, assuming he bought us to be a success on the field [as its your view], maybe he - like Simon Jordan - has found that its not what he hoped or thought it would be ? Or maybe the opportunity will come along to make a quick profit ? Either is more than plausible.

 

 

 

Maybe he has. Maybe it's all a load of unadulterated bullshit. Who knows?

 

What I do know is that if these stories are all true then he must be doing a pretty s*** job of selling the club given that this is about his eighth attempt... :rolleyes:

 

It took Hall a few goes to sell.

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

For a telecom company like Reliance that wants to be a global brand with high visibilty football is a very strong option. It's either that or the Olympics these days. Football is a very interesting vehicle as it gets the most airtime of anything on the planet, especially in Europe. The Indian bloke would look at it in that way to energise Reliance and give it high visibility especiall if he was looking to move into the Euro/Global telecom market. The cost of the club is peanuts for an operation like this.

 

What can he do with owning a club that he can't do with, say, shirt sponsorship and lots of advertising?

 

People emotionally engage with a football club, it also becomes a symbol (if run correctly) that projects the core values of the owner ie Reliance. You don't get this from adv which is has a very short term influence if any. 90% of adv doesn't work (don't tell them).

 

Still doesn't answer my question, really.

 

There aren't actually that many clubs which are owned for reasons of PR, however big the apparent reach. OK, there's Man City, owned by a dodgy politician for reasons of enhancing his popularity. But I can't think of any that are owned for branding purposes, except for the likes of Total Network Solutions. I suppose you could count Bayer Leverkusen, though that has its origins in a works team.

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

Dave, assuming he bought us to be a success on the field [as its your view], maybe he - like Simon Jordan - has found that its not what he hoped or thought it would be ? Or maybe the opportunity will come along to make a quick profit ? Either is more than plausible.

 

 

 

There's also the chance that the article is a complete load of bollocks, which is in fact more likely.

 

why is it more likely ? Because you want it to be ? Its a hypothetical question, it isn't impossible, and these reports are happening too often, and paying off the stadium repayments almost definitely makes the club a more saleable asset ?

 

 

 

 

 

Dealing in facts (which is what you like), how many of these stories have we seen so far & how many have been proven to have any trurth in them.

 

The balance of probability surely dictates that its more than likely another load of shite.

 

If you really think the clearing of the stadium debt has been done solely to sell the club, then you're a fool.  You clearly have no idea about finance & business other than what you read in the papers.

 

FWIW I don't really care who owns the club, whether it be Ashley or someone else, so stop trying to tell me what I think, particularly when you've repeatedly made it clear you want shot of him with your usual agenda-driven drivel.

 

 

 

We've been linked with 5 buyers in the last year or so...Can it all be shite??

 

Linked by whom?

 

Eh?

 

The answer is by the press O0

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I hope he doesnt sell. . There's no reason to believe he will like. I really want to see him make a success of us, unlike like some people who seem to want to see him fail.

 

this is directed at me isn't it ?

 

I'll start by asking you if you have paid for the next 3 years ? So I certainly don't want them to fail, anymore than I have wanted anybody to fail since 1964 when I have watched this club through all the good and s*** times, far worse than this believe me.

 

I fail to see why you don't want him to sell to someone who might be better for the club, whoever it might be. Why not ? Why do you specifically want him to succeed, does it matter who the owner is if the club succeeds ?

 

 

 

Errr, it was actually aimed at the people on the NOTW website leaving comments....

 

 

Ok mate, no probs. Of course, we know that London journo's want us to fail. I haven't seen the TV yet this morning, so I think its a bit peculiar that Curry is looking so excited about it all [as described by those who have]  as a bloke like this - if he's interested in the football being a success - would make mincemeat of all of them.

 

 

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

For a telecom company like Reliance that wants to be a global brand with high visibilty football is a very strong option. It's either that or the Olympics these days. Football is a very interesting vehicle as it gets the most airtime of anything on the planet, especially in Europe. The Indian bloke would look at it in that way to energise Reliance and give it high visibility especiall if he was looking to move into the Euro/Global telecom market. The cost of the club is peanuts for an operation like this.

 

What can he do with owning a club that he can't do with, say, shirt sponsorship and lots of advertising?

 

People emotionally engage with a football club, it also becomes a symbol (if run correctly) that projects the core values of the owner ie Reliance. You don't get this from adv which is has a very short term influence if any. 90% of adv doesn't work (don't tell them).

 

Still doesn't answer my question, really.

 

There aren't actually that many clubs which are owned for reasons of PR, however big the apparent reach. OK, there's Man City, owned by a dodgy politician for reasons of enhancing his popularity. But I can't think of any that are owned for branding purposes, except for the likes of Total Network Solutions. I suppose you could count Bayer Leverkusen, though that has its origins in a works team.

 

Arsenal (the Emirates brand), PSV (Phillips)...off the top of my head. But you're igonoring that this is an Indian company with 0 visibilty in Europe, imo that has to be part of the paradigm when looking at developing a brand...A brand that speaks. Owning a club is much more and says a lot more than 'buying space'.

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

Dave, assuming he bought us to be a success on the field [as its your view], maybe he - like Simon Jordan - has found that its not what he hoped or thought it would be ? Or maybe the opportunity will come along to make a quick profit ? Either is more than plausible.

 

 

 

There's also the chance that the article is a complete load of bollocks, which is in fact more likely.

 

why is it more likely ? Because you want it to be ? Its a hypothetical question, it isn't impossible, and these reports are happening too often, and paying off the stadium repayments almost definitely makes the club a more saleable asset ?

 

 

 

 

 

Dealing in facts (which is what you like), how many of these stories have we seen so far & how many have been proven to have any trurth in them.

 

The balance of probability surely dictates that its more than likely another load of shite.

 

If you really think the clearing of the stadium debt has been done solely to sell the club, then you're a fool.  You clearly have no idea about finance & business other than what you read in the papers.

 

FWIW I don't really care who owns the club, whether it be Ashley or someone else, so stop trying to tell me what I think, particularly when you've repeatedly made it clear you want shot of him with your usual agenda-driven drivel.

 

 

 

We've been linked with 5 buyers in the last year or so...Can it all be shite??

 

Linked by whom?

 

Eh?

 

The answer is by the press O0

 

And? I don't know where you get your news from, is it beamed into your head?

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

Dave, assuming he bought us to be a success on the field [as its your view], maybe he - like Simon Jordan - has found that its not what he hoped or thought it would be ? Or maybe the opportunity will come along to make a quick profit ? Either is more than plausible.

 

 

 

There's also the chance that the article is a complete load of bollocks, which is in fact more likely.

 

why is it more likely ? Because you want it to be ? Its a hypothetical question, it isn't impossible, and these reports are happening too often, and paying off the stadium repayments almost definitely makes the club a more saleable asset ?

 

 

 

 

 

Dealing in facts (which is what you like), how many of these stories have we seen so far & how many have been proven to have any trurth in them.

 

The balance of probability surely dictates that its more than likely another load of shite.

 

If you really think the clearing of the stadium debt has been done solely to sell the club, then you're a fool.  You clearly have no idea about finance & business other than what you read in the papers.

 

FWIW I don't really care who owns the club, whether it be Ashley or someone else, so stop trying to tell me what I think, particularly when you've repeatedly made it clear you want shot of him with your usual agenda-driven drivel.

 

 

 

We've been linked with 5 buyers in the last year or so...Can it all be shite??

 

Linked by whom?

 

Eh?

 

The answer is by the press O0

 

And? I don't know where you get your news from, is it beamed into your head?

 

Certainly not the Sunday papers which is the point we both know I was making.  Strange that these stories only seem to turn up at a weekend?

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I hope he doesnt sell. . There's no reason to believe he will like. I really want to see him make a success of us, unlike like some people who seem to want to see him fail.

 

this is directed at me isn't it ?

 

I'll start by asking you if you have paid for the next 3 years ? So I certainly don't want them to fail, anymore than I have wanted anybody to fail since 1964 when I have watched this club through all the good and s*** times, far worse than this believe me.

 

I fail to see why you don't want him to sell to someone who might be better for the club, whoever it might be. Why not ? Why do you specifically want him to succeed, does it matter who the owner is if the club succeeds ?

 

 

 

Errr, it was actually aimed at the people on the NOTW website leaving comments....

 

 

Ok mate, no probs. Of course, we know that London journo's want us to fail. I haven't seen the TV yet this morning, so I think its a bit peculiar that Curry is looking so excited about it all [as described by those who have]  as a bloke like this - if he's interested in the football being a success - would make mincemeat of all of them.

 

 

 

Aye, he did seem a litle excited. Constantly talking about "this story is agthering pace fast". To answer your earlier question though, i just think the way things are being done at the club at the moment, will lead to long term success. Pin pointing signings, building with youth, cutting wage bills, not leaking news to press, generally trying to rid us of the Newcastle Circus.

 

This is why i want him to succeed. By selling up again (which i honestly dont think will happen) we'll just be back to square one, and again easy targets for everyone who cant wait to shoot us down.

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

Dave, assuming he bought us to be a success on the field [as its your view], maybe he - like Simon Jordan - has found that its not what he hoped or thought it would be ? Or maybe the opportunity will come along to make a quick profit ? Either is more than plausible.

 

 

 

There's also the chance that the article is a complete load of bollocks, which is in fact more likely.

 

why is it more likely ? Because you want it to be ? Its a hypothetical question, it isn't impossible, and these reports are happening too often, and paying off the stadium repayments almost definitely makes the club a more saleable asset ?

 

 

 

 

 

Dealing in facts (which is what you like), how many of these stories have we seen so far & how many have been proven to have any trurth in them.

 

The balance of probability surely dictates that its more than likely another load of shite.

 

If you really think the clearing of the stadium debt has been done solely to sell the club, then you're a fool.  You clearly have no idea about finance & business other than what you read in the papers.

 

FWIW I don't really care who owns the club, whether it be Ashley or someone else, so stop trying to tell me what I think, particularly when you've repeatedly made it clear you want shot of him with your usual agenda-driven drivel.

 

 

 

We've been linked with 5 buyers in the last year or so...Can it all be shite??

 

Linked by whom?

 

Eh?

 

The answer is by the press O0

 

And? I don't know where you get your news from, is it beamed into your head?

 

Certainly not the Sunday papers which is the point we both know I was making.  Strange that these stories only seem to turn up at a weekend?

 

Well the DIC story and the n.Y. groups story was in the Telegraph. Are they against us as well? :rolleyes:

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

Dave, assuming he bought us to be a success on the field [as its your view], maybe he - like Simon Jordan - has found that its not what he hoped or thought it would be ? Or maybe the opportunity will come along to make a quick profit ? Either is more than plausible.

 

 

 

There's also the chance that the article is a complete load of bollocks, which is in fact more likely.

 

why is it more likely ? Because you want it to be ? Its a hypothetical question, it isn't impossible, and these reports are happening too often, and paying off the stadium repayments almost definitely makes the club a more saleable asset ?

 

 

 

 

 

Dealing in facts (which is what you like), how many of these stories have we seen so far & how many have been proven to have any trurth in them.

 

The balance of probability surely dictates that its more than likely another load of shite.

 

If you really think the clearing of the stadium debt has been done solely to sell the club, then you're a fool.  You clearly have no idea about finance & business other than what you read in the papers.

 

FWIW I don't really care who owns the club, whether it be Ashley or someone else, so stop trying to tell me what I think, particularly when you've repeatedly made it clear you want shot of him with your usual agenda-driven drivel.

 

 

 

We've been linked with 5 buyers in the last year or so...Can it all be shite??

 

Linked by whom?

 

Eh?

 

The answer is by the press O0

 

And? I don't know where you get your news from, is it beamed into your head?

 

Certainly not the Sunday papers which is the point we both know I was making.  Strange that these stories only seem to turn up at a weekend?

 

Well the DIC story and the n.Y. groups story was in the Telegraph. Are they against us as well? :rolleyes:

 

It would appear so.  Seriously mate, if you want to believe everything you read in the newspapers, then thats up to you.  I'd have credited you with a bit more intelligence than that.

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Aye, he did seem a litle excited. Constantly talking about "this story is agthering pace fast". To answer your earlier question though, i just think the way things are being done at the club at the moment, will lead to long term success. Pin pointing signings, building with youth, cutting wage bills, not leaking news to press, generally trying to rid us of the Newcastle Circus.

 

This is why i want him to succeed. By selling up again (which i honestly dont think will happen) we'll just be back to square one, and again easy targets for everyone who cant wait to shoot us down.

 

So the fact that the media have come up with this story and are now perpetuating it is getting them excited, they are pathetic.

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely the richer the person, the less point there is in buying a football club to make money? As far as I can see, the sport is awash with money, but most of it comes in and goes straight out. The clear profit being made would be small fry for Ashley, never mind someone with so much more money.

 

The point I'm making is that Ashley surely bought us for 'fun'; purely for something to do? So why would he be so desperate to sell up every other week?

 

Personally I wouldn't want an Abramovich-style spending spree anyway, despite the media assuming (as a Newcastle fan) that I would.

 

For a telecom company like Reliance that wants to be a global brand with high visibilty football is a very strong option. It's either that or the Olympics these days. Football is a very interesting vehicle as it gets the most airtime of anything on the planet, especially in Europe. The Indian bloke would look at it in that way to energise Reliance and give it high visibility especiall if he was looking to move into the Euro/Global telecom market. The cost of the club is peanuts for an operation like this.

 

What can he do with owning a club that he can't do with, say, shirt sponsorship and lots of advertising?

 

People emotionally engage with a football club, it also becomes a symbol (if run correctly) that projects the core values of the owner ie Reliance. You don't get this from adv which is has a very short term influence if any. 90% of adv doesn't work (don't tell them).

 

Still doesn't answer my question, really.

 

There aren't actually that many clubs which are owned for reasons of PR, however big the apparent reach. OK, there's Man City, owned by a dodgy politician for reasons of enhancing his popularity. But I can't think of any that are owned for branding purposes, except for the likes of Total Network Solutions. I suppose you could count Bayer Leverkusen, though that has its origins in a works team.

 

Arsenal (the Emirates brand), PSV (Phillips)...off the top of my head. But you're igonoring that this is an Indian company with 0 visibilty in Europe, imo that has to be part of the paradigm when looking at developing a brand...A brand that speaks. Owning a club is much more and says a lot more than 'buying space'.

 

Arsenal isn't owned by the Emirates brand.

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Aye, he did seem a litle excited. Constantly talking about "this story is agthering pace fast". To answer your earlier question though, i just think the way things are being done at the club at the moment, will lead to long term success. Pin pointing signings, building with youth, cutting wage bills, not leaking news to press, generally trying to rid us of the Newcastle Circus.

 

This is why i want him to succeed. By selling up again (which i honestly dont think will happen) we'll just be back to square one, and again easy targets for everyone who cant wait to shoot us down.

 

So the fact that the media have come up with this story and are now perpetuating it is getting them excited, they are pathetic.

 

Indeed. On about hw he has been talking to people that are close to this Ambani guy and how they expect further news in next 24-48 hours. We'll see i guess?

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Well the DIC story and the n.Y. groups story was in the Telegraph. Are they against us as well? :rolleyes:

 

Newspapers make money from sales and advertising, if they have no stories then they have no sales.  If they don't have a story then they'll invent one just so the gullible run out and buy the shite they print.

 

I’m sure Ashley would sell if enough money was offered but we knew nothing when he bought the club and I expect that it will be the same if he sells it, we’ll know nothing until the deal has been done.

 

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Certainly not the Sunday papers which is the point we both know I was making.  Strange that these stories only seem to turn up at a weekend?

 

Is it really strange? The Sundays have the bigger budget to get the exclusives with like Barry George or a twat evicted from Big Brother , the writers have a week to put an item together, the writers on the Dailys are getting pumped to deliver day after day that is why the bigger or the more far fetched stories come out at the weekend such as this & Toongate .

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Indeed. On about hw he has been talking to people that are close to this Ambani guy and how they expect further news in next 24-48 hours. We'll see i guess?

 

I expect we'll be told that the deal has fallen through because Ashley wanted too much for the club, the media are onto a winner with this shite because even if all parties deny it the media will say it is for reasons of confidentiality.

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Certainly not the Sunday papers which is the point we both know I was making.  Strange that these stories only seem to turn up at a weekend?

 

Is it really strange? The Sundays have the bigger budget to get the exclusives with like Barry George or a twat evicted from Big Brother , the writers have a week to put an item together, the writers on the Dailys are getting pumped to deliver day after day that is why the bigger or the more far fetched stories come out at the weekend such as this & Toongate .

 

5 days to try & find a real story, then one day to write their own story if they don't IMO.

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Certainly not the Sunday papers which is the point we both know I was making.  Strange that these stories only seem to turn up at a weekend?

 

Is it really strange? The Sundays have the bigger budget to get the exclusives with like Barry George or a t*** evicted from Big Brother , the writers have a week to put an item together, the writers on the Dailys are getting pumped to deliver day after day that is why the bigger or the more far fetched stories come out at the weekend such as this & Toongate .

 

5 days to try & find a real story, then one day to write their own story if they don't IMO.

 

Although something like Toongate took a little bit longer than 5 days.

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Indeed. On about hw he has been talking to people that are close to this Ambani guy and how they expect further news in next 24-48 hours. We'll see i guess?

 

I expect we'll be told that the deal has fallen through because Ashley wanted too much for the club, the media are onto a winner with this shite because even if all parties deny it the media will say it is for reasons of confidentiality.

 

That's exactly the way Nicko "runs" his thread  on that Blackburn forum.  We were nailed on signing Aimar according to him, then when we didn't it was because "Newcastle messed it up again".

 

I really can't believe some people don't know how newspaper journalism works.

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Is it really strange? The Sundays have the bigger budget to get the exclusives with like Barry George or a t*** evicted from Big Brother , the writers have a week to put an item together, the writers on the Dailys are getting pumped to deliver day after day that is why the bigger or the more far fetched stories come out at the weekend such as this & Toongate .

 

Toongate is a poor example, they didn't report news, they created it.  I think we'll find that this story is the same in that they'll have created it although it could be true.

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Certainly not the Sunday papers which is the point we both know I was making.  Strange that these stories only seem to turn up at a weekend?

 

Is it really strange? The Sundays have the bigger budget to get the exclusives with like Barry George or a t*** evicted from Big Brother , the writers have a week to put an item together, the writers on the Dailys are getting pumped to deliver day after day that is why the bigger or the more far fetched stories come out at the weekend such as this & Toongate .

 

5 days to try & find a real story, then one day to write their own story if they don't IMO.

 

Although something like Toongate took a little bit longer than 5 days.

 

Without a doubt, but thats a canny way back you're having to go to find an example relating to us.  And lets be honest, even that was a set up.

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That's exactly the way Nicko "runs" his thread  on that Blackburn forum.  We were nailed on signing Aimar according to him, then when we didn't it was because "Newcastle messed it up again".

 

I really can't believe some people don't know how newspaper journalism works.

 

I wonder how long a journalist would have a job if he kept reporting in without a story?

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