Still an Ashleyite? Who's with me?

[Doug]

I firmly believe that if Ashley had not taken over and sacked Allardyce that we would be starting this season in the championship.

Stats like the only team to lose to Derby and 0-3 down at home after 11 mins (pompey) belonged to a team heading for relegation.

With all the debt that the old regime had saddled the club with too, it would have been a long way back.

Look at Leeds, Forest, Wednesday, etc to see how hard it is to recover.

The fools coming onto national radio and tv ought to bear this in mind before giving the reporters the insulting soundbites they are keen to generate against the clubs hierarchy.

 

[Guest guinness_fiend]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers?  

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

[Guest Phil K]

Well ... I've taken in everything all through today now, and now I'm left here feeling like I honestly prefer what Ashley and his team want to do.

Actually I fall between two chairs.

I appreciate what Wise and Jimenez are doing with their idea of signings.

I appreciate what KK wants.

I only wish they could work together

That pathetic paucity of action on transfer deadline day was destructive.

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I firmly believe that if Ashley had not taken over and sacked Allardyce that we would be starting this season in the championship.

Stats like the only team to lose to Derby and 0-3 down at home after 11 mins (pompey) belonged to a team heading for relegation.

With all the debt that the old regime had saddled the club with too, it would have been a long way back.

Look at Leeds, Forest, Wednesday, etc to see how hard it is to recover.

The fools coming onto national radio and tv ought to bear this in mind before giving the reporters the insulting soundbites they are keen to generate against the clubs hierarchy.

 

More people need to accept this. Ashley has done nothing but good things for this club so far.

[Guest Phil K]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers?  

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

I firmly believe that if Ashley had not taken over and sacked Allardyce that we would be starting this season in the championship.

Stats like the only team to lose to Derby and 0-3 down at home after 11 mins (pompey) belonged to a team heading for relegation.

With all the debt that the old regime had saddled the club with too, it would have been a long way back.

Look at Leeds, Forest, Wednesday, etc to see how hard it is to recover.

The fools coming onto national radio and tv ought to bear this in mind before giving the reporters the insulting soundbites they are keen to generate against the clubs hierarchy.

 

More people need to accept this. Ashley has done nothing but good things for this club so far.

True.

And KK has made some crappy signings as well as good

Remember Hooper the keeper that Liverpool were in hysterics about managing to get some prat to fork out half a mill for when they'd have PAID to get shot of him ?

They weren't all Andy Cole/Sir Les/Big Al/Rob Lee you know !

[ToonMonty]

Good post, Kaka.

 

I think Keegan bought into Ashley's vision just to get his feet under the table and was hoping that once in he could work it to how he wanted, Gullem Balague was on Sky earlier talking about how he is the wrong man for what the club are looking for and that they should move for one of the top young Spanish coaches (he did name them but I can't remember) who are not only tactically superior but are happy bringing through younger players.

 

Every public tantrum Keegan throws and makes us look like a pantomime makes me think he's not the right man for the job this time around.

 

That man slaughtered the club for months for the (in his eyes) terrible treatment of Marcelino FFS, of course he's going to want us to get rid of Keegan.  Balague is a poor man's Marcotti (sp) in he's a twat as well

[sparta]

There are some very good posts in this thread rather than the reactionary rubbish being spouted by a lot of people. Regarding Ashley, I ask myself the question "What has Ashley done wrong?"

 

Attempt to sell Barton?

Attempt to sell Owen?

Successfully sell Milner for £12m?

Unearth players like Colo, Jonas, Guthrie and these new guys?

Make Keegan Manager?

 

You could argue that Owen shouldn't be sold, but he's been offered a contract and doesn't seem committed to sign it yet.

 

Like someone else said in this thread, Keegan seems to be fighting the wrong battles, and if he'd just stick to what he's good at this could all work very well.

 

 

Fail to sack Barton.

Fail to sell Smith/Ameobi/etc.

Fail to get in enough players.

Give Dennis Wise a BOARD position.

Allow Dennis Wise power over recruitment/retention.

Make us like liek an even bigger bunch of twats that those supporting Souness/Allardyce did.

 

 

Fail to sack Barton.       - Becouse Keegan Wanted him

Fail to sell Smith/Ameobi/etc.  - Ameobi = Medical Failures / Smith - Keegan Wanted him

Fail to get in enough players.  - Agreed (but only by one or two? that aint so bad)

Give Dennis Wise a BOARD position.  -Agreed to some extent

Allow Dennis Wise power over recruitment/retention.  - Wise only has recruitment over youngsters coming to the academy

Make us like like an even bigger bunch of twats that those supporting Souness/Allardyce did.  - Tbf, thats only our own fault

[juniatmoko]

ashley just want his money back at short term.... end of

[Guest optimistic nit]

one things for sure, if he's still here by hull he'll have much more control than he did. i hope it doesn't mean we lose out on future jonas and colo's, but it will be a good thing overall.

[magpie418]

It seems the problems, whatever they may be, began with the departure of Mort.  I've been happy with the setup myself, and looking forward to the season ahead.  This whole thing has been the biggest kick in the balls i've ever felt regarding all things NUFC, the misery of the past was at least expected to some degree. 

And as far as being taken over is concerned, shelling out wads of money doesn't always buy you good players, we as Newcastle fans should only be too aware of that.

 

 

 

[Guest WiMag]

Agree 100% with you KaKa. The sports writers are so thick & lazy ... all they know is to dust off their old stories about chaos & mindless owners & run some pictures of a bunch of charvers & kids yelling slogans to get on the telly. They're living in the past & incapable of seeing the bigger picture ... soccer is changing ... the days of the old all-powerful manager that makes all player & contract decisions is coming to a close.

 

The finances behind player's fees & salaries is unsustainable except for the super rich owner and even they pull in the reins once the rush of excitement wears off.  Look at West Ham ... a historically frugal club that's virtually under water now - they made 57M last year & players wagers were 50M of that. Now Curbushly has quit in a huff 'cos he not getting his way ... same as Keegan ... there's a power struggle going on and if the managers win, football will go the same way as the UK property market, trying to keep up with the super clubs run by arab dictators & foreign gangsters. The middle ranking teams have to get their finances under control and be run with sustainability.

 

If the manager appoints all the players then every time you have a new manager he wants to get shot of everyone & bring in a whole new crew at a massive write-off. Not only that but the manager has his favorites too ... if Keegan had his way he'd offer Owen a king's ransom of N/cle football cash to keep his horse stable & helicopter running. I've yet to see a single writer make any educated analysis of the situation in football, its all just knee jerk re-runs that treat every supporter as a terrace dwelling idiot ... they've never run a business in their lives so unfortunately its the only story they know how to write.

 

Managers are unhappy because the owners of the clubs, trying to be sensible, are declining to pay the budget blowing salaries so the players move to the clubs that are prepared to bust the pay scale & then the writers blow hard about not backing the manager ... Lampard & Terry - 160,000 pounds a week. Newcastle are trying to have financial discipline & Keegan's throwing his dolly out of the pram.

 

The middle clubs can never compete with the super rich clubs under the current free-for-all model ... there's a lot to be learned from the US in this area. Baseball & football went thru this years ago in and realised its a bleak future so they embraced models of club revenue sharing, team salary caps & general managers running playing staffs that's levelled the financial playing field & put managers to managing the team not acting like they own it ! Sunderland are following the West Ham model now with all these past it, high earners they're loading up with .... Curbs has gone in the huff & in another year Keano will be the one threatening to take his ball home & leaving the club with a load of morgaged deadwood.

 

We mags fans need to have more patience, Rome wasn't built overnight & neither will a strong, sustainable club future not reliant on every manager's whim.

Newcastle Utd.

 

 

[S.S.R.]

I'm not for or against Ashley, I just never believed he was in it for the football.

 

If he wants to turn us into an efficient business instead of a Chelsea mkII, fine. As long as he doesn't try to tell us otherwise.

[afar]

Agree 100% with you KaKa. The sports writers are so thick & lazy ... all they know is to dust off their old stories about chaos & mindless owners & run some pictures of a bunch of charvers & kids yelling slogans to get on the telly. They're living in the past & incapable of seeing the bigger picture ... soccer is changing ... the days of the old all-powerful manager that makes all player & contract decisions is coming to a close.

 

The finances behind player's fees & salaries is unsustainable except for the super rich owner and even they pull in the reins once the rush of excitement wears off.  Look at West Ham ... a historically frugal club that's virtually under water now - they made 57M last year & players wagers were 50M of that. Now Curbushly has quit in a huff 'cos he not getting his way ... same as Keegan ... there's a power struggle going on and if the managers win, football will go the same way as the UK property market, trying to keep up with the super clubs run by arab dictators & foreign gangsters. The middle ranking teams have to get their finances under control and be run with sustainability.

 

If the manager appoints all the players then every time you have a new manager he wants to get shot of everyone & bring in a whole new crew at a massive write-off. Not only that but the manager has his favorites too ... if Keegan had his way he'd offer Owen a king's ransom of N/cle football cash to keep his horse stable & helicopter running. I've yet to see a single writer make any educated analysis of the situation in football, its all just knee jerk re-runs that treat every supporter as a terrace dwelling idiot ... they've never run a business in their lives so unfortunately its the only story they know how to write.

 

Managers are unhappy because the owners of the clubs, trying to be sensible, are declining to pay the budget blowing salaries so the players move to the clubs that are prepared to bust the pay scale & then the writers blow hard about not backing the manager ... Lampard & Terry - 160,000 pounds a week. Newcastle are trying to have financial discipline & Keegan's throwing his dolly out of the pram.

 

The middle clubs can never compete with the super rich clubs under the current free-for-all model ... there's a lot to be learned from the US in this area. Baseball & football went thru this years ago in and realised its a bleak future so they embraced models of club revenue sharing, team salary caps & general managers running playing staffs that's levelled the financial playing field & put managers to managing the team not acting like they own it ! Sunderland are following the West Ham model now with all these past it, high earners they're loading up with .... Curbs has gone in the huff & in another year Keano will be the one threatening to take his ball home & leaving the club with a load of morgaged deadwood.

 

We mags fans need to have more patience, Rome wasn't built overnight & neither will a strong, sustainable club future not reliant on every manager's whim.

Newcastle Utd.

 

 

 

Wow paragraphs are your friend man, that's so hard to read.

[UV]

I guess I just missed the memo along the way, but can someone who is happy with "the setup" please tell me exactly what "the setup" is, ie precisely what everyone's role is, and who has responsibility for what? It might clear up some of the confusion as to what's gone on recently. If you can't be bothered to type it all out, just link me to the source of your info ta.

[Andy]

Agree 100% with you KaKa. The sports writers are so thick & lazy ... all they know is to dust off their old stories about chaos & mindless owners & run some pictures of a bunch of charvers & kids yelling slogans to get on the telly. They're living in the past & incapable of seeing the bigger picture ... soccer is changing ... the days of the old all-powerful manager that makes all player & contract decisions is coming to a close.

 

The finances behind player's fees & salaries is unsustainable except for the super rich owner and even they pull in the reins once the rush of excitement wears off.  Look at West Ham ... a historically frugal club that's virtually under water now - they made 57M last year & players wagers were 50M of that. Now Curbushly has quit in a huff 'cos he not getting his way ... same as Keegan ... there's a power struggle going on and if the managers win, football will go the same way as the UK property market, trying to keep up with the super clubs run by arab dictators & foreign gangsters. The middle ranking teams have to get their finances under control and be run with sustainability.

 

If the manager appoints all the players then every time you have a new manager he wants to get shot of everyone & bring in a whole new crew at a massive write-off. Not only that but the manager has his favorites too ... if Keegan had his way he'd offer Owen a king's ransom of N/cle football cash to keep his horse stable & helicopter running. I've yet to see a single writer make any educated analysis of the situation in football, its all just knee jerk re-runs that treat every supporter as a terrace dwelling idiot ... they've never run a business in their lives so unfortunately its the only story they know how to write.

 

Managers are unhappy because the owners of the clubs, trying to be sensible, are declining to pay the budget blowing salaries so the players move to the clubs that are prepared to bust the pay scale & then the writers blow hard about not backing the manager ... Lampard & Terry - 160,000 pounds a week. Newcastle are trying to have financial discipline & Keegan's throwing his dolly out of the pram.

 

The middle clubs can never compete with the super rich clubs under the current free-for-all model ... there's a lot to be learned from the US in this area. Baseball & football went thru this years ago in and realised its a bleak future so they embraced models of club revenue sharing, team salary caps & general managers running playing staffs that's levelled the financial playing field & put managers to managing the team not acting like they own it ! Sunderland are following the West Ham model now with all these past it, high earners they're loading up with .... Curbs has gone in the huff & in another year Keano will be the one threatening to take his ball home & leaving the club with a load of morgaged deadwood.

 

We mags fans need to have more patience, Rome wasn't built overnight & neither will a strong, sustainable club future not reliant on every manager's whim.

Newcastle Utd.

 

Wow paragraphs are your friend man, that's so hard to read.

 

I've edited it, being the user-friendly moderator that I am

[Parky]

All of this of course is supposition as nobody knows what the hell is going on.

 

Nobody knows who is doing which jobs at this time other than Keegan selects the team. Also, we signed two players, well one player really, who we haven't got the faintest idea if he'll turn out to be Torres or Luque. The other one is deemed surplus to requirements by an average spanish club at this time so we're basically a testing ground for him.

 

I'm not ready yet to jump on the cockney bandwagon and start slagging off Keegan like some of the know it alls on here.

 

Sometimes Sniffs you pitch a post just right. This is one of those rare moments.

[Parky]

Agree 100% with you KaKa. The sports writers are so thick & lazy ... all they know is to dust off their old stories about chaos & mindless owners & run some pictures of a bunch of charvers & kids yelling slogans to get on the telly. They're living in the past & incapable of seeing the bigger picture ... soccer is changing ... the days of the old all-powerful manager that makes all player & contract decisions is coming to a close.

 

The finances behind player's fees & salaries is unsustainable except for the super rich owner and even they pull in the reins once the rush of excitement wears off.  Look at West Ham ... a historically frugal club that's virtually under water now - they made 57M last year & players wagers were 50M of that. Now Curbushly has quit in a huff 'cos he not getting his way ... same as Keegan ... there's a power struggle going on and if the managers win, football will go the same way as the UK property market, trying to keep up with the super clubs run by arab dictators & foreign gangsters. The middle ranking teams have to get their finances under control and be run with sustainability.

 

If the manager appoints all the players then every time you have a new manager he wants to get shot of everyone & bring in a whole new crew at a massive write-off. Not only that but the manager has his favorites too ... if Keegan had his way he'd offer Owen a king's ransom of N/cle football cash to keep his horse stable & helicopter running. I've yet to see a single writer make any educated analysis of the situation in football, its all just knee jerk re-runs that treat every supporter as a terrace dwelling idiot ... they've never run a business in their lives so unfortunately its the only story they know how to write.

 

Managers are unhappy because the owners of the clubs, trying to be sensible, are declining to pay the budget blowing salaries so the players move to the clubs that are prepared to bust the pay scale & then the writers blow hard about not backing the manager ... Lampard & Terry - 160,000 pounds a week. Newcastle are trying to have financial discipline & Keegan's throwing his dolly out of the pram.

 

The middle clubs can never compete with the super rich clubs under the current free-for-all model ... there's a lot to be learned from the US in this area. Baseball & football went thru this years ago in and realised its a bleak future so they embraced models of club revenue sharing, team salary caps & general managers running playing staffs that's levelled the financial playing field & put managers to managing the team not acting like they own it ! Sunderland are following the West Ham model now with all these past it, high earners they're loading up with .... Curbs has gone in the huff & in another year Keano will be the one threatening to take his ball home & leaving the club with a load of morgaged deadwood.

 

We mags fans need to have more patience, Rome wasn't built overnight & neither will a strong, sustainable club future not reliant on every manager's whim.

Newcastle Utd.

 

 

 

I can't honestly remember the last time anyone agreed with Karkar.

[afar]

Agree 100% with you KaKa. The sports writers are so thick & lazy ... all they know is to dust off their old stories about chaos & mindless owners & run some pictures of a bunch of charvers & kids yelling slogans to get on the telly. They're living in the past & incapable of seeing the bigger picture ... soccer is changing ... the days of the old all-powerful manager that makes all player & contract decisions is coming to a close.

 

The finances behind player's fees & salaries is unsustainable except for the super rich owner and even they pull in the reins once the rush of excitement wears off.  Look at West Ham ... a historically frugal club that's virtually under water now - they made 57M last year & players wagers were 50M of that. Now Curbushly has quit in a huff 'cos he not getting his way ... same as Keegan ... there's a power struggle going on and if the managers win, football will go the same way as the UK property market, trying to keep up with the super clubs run by arab dictators & foreign gangsters. The middle ranking teams have to get their finances under control and be run with sustainability.

 

If the manager appoints all the players then every time you have a new manager he wants to get shot of everyone & bring in a whole new crew at a massive write-off. Not only that but the manager has his favorites too ... if Keegan had his way he'd offer Owen a king's ransom of N/cle football cash to keep his horse stable & helicopter running. I've yet to see a single writer make any educated analysis of the situation in football, its all just knee jerk re-runs that treat every supporter as a terrace dwelling idiot ... they've never run a business in their lives so unfortunately its the only story they know how to write.

 

Managers are unhappy because the owners of the clubs, trying to be sensible, are declining to pay the budget blowing salaries so the players move to the clubs that are prepared to bust the pay scale & then the writers blow hard about not backing the manager ... Lampard & Terry - 160,000 pounds a week. Newcastle are trying to have financial discipline & Keegan's throwing his dolly out of the pram.

 

The middle clubs can never compete with the super rich clubs under the current free-for-all model ... there's a lot to be learned from the US in this area. Baseball & football went thru this years ago in and realised its a bleak future so they embraced models of club revenue sharing, team salary caps & general managers running playing staffs that's levelled the financial playing field & put managers to managing the team not acting like they own it ! Sunderland are following the West Ham model now with all these past it, high earners they're loading up with .... Curbs has gone in the huff & in another year Keano will be the one threatening to take his ball home & leaving the club with a load of morgaged deadwood.

 

We mags fans need to have more patience, Rome wasn't built overnight & neither will a strong, sustainable club future not reliant on every manager's whim.

Newcastle Utd.

 

 

 

I can't honestly remember the last time anyone agreed with Karkar.

 

I think it did happen once before, many years ago, Kaka made the point that the weather was nice for this time of year and I think it was Dave who agreed it was, although he had brought a brolly out with him in case it rained

[TRon]

I guess I just missed the memo along the way, but can someone who is happy with "the setup" please tell me exactly what "the setup" is, ie precisely what everyone's role is, and who has responsibility for what? It might clear up some of the confusion as to what's gone on recently. If you can't be bothered to type it all out, just link me to the source of your info ta.

 

If you want an exact breakdown, try e-mailing the club.

[bobbydazzla]

I think team salary caps are the only logical solution to the current situation going on in football.

 

Implementing it would be very difficult though. In NFL (I've been told) and Aussie Rugby league it has worked but they are leagues that only really exist in one country so players can't head overseas to other leagues and make more money.

 

We'd need a global football salary cap system and that would take years to sort out and implement.

 

Otherwise the money men will keep fucking about with clubs that have been focal points of communities for over a century.

[hoppaz]

I guess I just missed the memo along the way, but can someone who is happy with "the setup" please tell me exactly what "the setup" is, ie precisely what everyone's role is, and who has responsibility for what? It might clear up some of the confusion as to what's gone on recently. If you can't be bothered to type it all out, just link me to the source of your info ta.

 

http://www.nufc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10278~1329691,00.html

 

Basically it looks like Llambias runs the "business" side of the club having no football club experience and Wise runs the "footballing" side which I would take includes player recruitment (not just youngsters).

 

As I have commented in another thread is Keegan asks for four players and only two are delivered then Wise is the man responsible for failing to deliver what has been asked of him.

 

Yes 12m is good business for Milner and selling Smith would be good too but the reality is we seem to have a policy of letting players go before replacing them (probably to save some £££ on wages etc) but we should really buy first then look to ship out so we don't compromise the quality of the squad.

[S.S.R.]

I've hated him since day one. When I saw we spent barely any money during transfer markets I knew he wasn't putting much into the team.

 

Paying all of the club's debt is nothing? Ok..

 

When he bought the club, it became his debt. It was advantageous to him to pay it off. People act like he built a hospital out of his own money.

 

Whatever he put into the club, he'll get back when he sells it.

[Guest Svenno]

I've hated him since day one. When I saw we spent barely any money during transfer markets I knew he wasn't putting much into the team.

 

Paying all of the club's debt is nothing? Ok..

 

When he bought the club, it became his debt. It was advantageous to him to pay it off. People act like he built a hospital out of his own money.

 

Whatever he put into the club, he'll get back when he sells it.

 

That's right. But he was never personally responsible for the debt. He could have milked the club for money, sold it and ran away if we're gonna take it to the extreme level.

[macphisto]

I can't really figure out why everyone is so happy about Ashley, football wise he hasn't a clue! And that's where it really matters, could someone please give me an example of a good football decision he's made?

Kept with Allardyce/failed to back him. Take your pick on that one but either way he screwed up!

Wanted to appoint Redknapp as manager.

Showed a complete lack of ambition in three transfer windows

Apointed the wrong manager for the structure he wanted. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about football would have known Keegan wouldn't be happy with the new structure!

Appointed Dennis Wise to the board, I'm sure there's much more qualified people than him who could do the job. Just think Ashley's first choice set up at the club would have been Redknapp and Wise!

Said there's money there when there blatantly isn't. Actions speak louder than words and if we had the money then it wouldn't be too difficult to get a better central midfielder than Butt or Gutherie. No point mentioning Barton as who knows when he will play again. Also with regards to the new guy they've bought, well lets see how well he does but the fact we've got him on loan says it all! Our two Central midfielder purchases this summer has been Liverpool's 8th choice central midfielder and a loan from Valencia!

 

Also with regards to the new structure, we need to bare in mind two things! It's far too early to judge the new players, even though some people already seem to think they're the bees knees!

 

Other point related to the new structure is that what we're trying to do can't be done anymore. By far the most successful club to develop young players is Arsenal and even they are now starting to struggle in recent seasons. As soon as you develop a young player one of the bigger clubs will come in for them! As a club you need to be prepared to spend big money if you want to do anything and Ashley just won't do that. Can't say I blame him as I wouldn't lay out the money either but at the same token I wouldn't have been stupid enough to have bought a football club if I wasn't prepared to do that!

[hakka]

Does anyone think that Ashley could stand with the fans after this?