This new system of ours

[Guest KeithKettleborough]

I think that one of Kevs greatest achievements was not actually keeping us up last season, but getting that team to play football. They were terrible before he came and we were heading for relegation in my opinion. The team looked shot, couldn't pass or do many of the other basic skills. I reckon that most of the "poor teams" we were due to play would probably have beaten us if he hadn't got them to play with the confidence they did display eventually.

 

KK did get them to start to play some decent stuff and its a shame that we couldn't have seen whether he could have transformed the club over a greater period of time. Will be interesting to see if they revert to their old ways, once the new manager is in place.

[Guest Toon Argy]

I think that one of Kevs greatest achievements was not actually keeping us up last season, but getting that team to play football. They were terrible before he came and we were heading for relegation in my opinion. The team looked shot, couldn't pass or do many of the other basic skills. I reckon that most of the "poor teams" we were due to play would probably have beaten us if he hadn't got them to play with the confidence they did display eventually.

 

KK did get them to start to play some decent stuff and its a shame that we couldn't have seen whether he could have transformed the club over a greater period of time. Will be interesting to see if they revert to their old ways, once the new manager is in place.

 

Best thing about keegan was how he would get the team to play good football

[merlin]

You do seem to be putting Keegan on a pedastal here, Chris, but just look at his record. He's never won a major trophy. He's had a history of walking out of jobs. What success he's had has been when he's been able to outspend the opposition. His record in this second spell here hasn't been anything fantastic.

 

I think his confidence and enthusiasm for the game are quite brittle. You don't exile yourself and avoid watching a single game for three years if your motivation is as steady as it should be.

 

Of course I am, our club has been littered with more Souness' than Keegans, he was our Fergie. Looking back, what he achieved was phenomenal Bob. I don't think any one else could have done what he did for us at the time and it is no coincidence that after he left, we struggled for years to move on and I fear history will repeat itself once more.

 

Our Fergie? So far the career major trophy score stands at about 40 - 0 in Fergie's favour.

 

Fergie never walked out or quit on Man U either even during the darkest hours.

 

And when did Fergie ever have Dennis Wise & people like Jiminez & Vetere picking his players for him ??

You wouldn't have seen him for dust in that scenario...

[Guest sittingontheball]

Keegan could have worked with what he had. Plenty others do and get on with it. We've started the season well and the squad is not a disaster. A bit light here and there, but that's nothing new.  Bobby got us into the CL with very poor defenders and Shola as our first choice replacement up front.

[Guest battyleespeed]

Statistics can only tell you so much. You have to look the overall conditions when KK took over . Like someone posted here already the big difference was how the team played. The team played the most confident and fluid football that I have seen in the last decade or so. Besides that he did maximise the assets he had... just like SBR remolded Shearer to become more effective player KK did the same with Owen. Any other manager would most likely insisted playing him as a second striker in 4-4-2 without much of a result.

 

Maybe the younger lads don't know but KK was always praised by the players for giving them the freedom to play their own game and a confidence in their abilities. I forgot who was the player that said he always looked forward to the match day because playing in KK's team was such a joy.  Now, that might not sound like a big deal but with the pressure that comes with the premier league that is not easily achieved. Lot of our players have looked dismotivated, shaky and shrinking responsibility in the past years for various reasons so to see them play in confident and fluid way was quite promising.

 

Like HTT put it well KK might be worth a 4 new faces and, at least for me, KK was the only thing that stopped me thinking about relegation being (again) a possibility this season. In overall the team has been at best inconsistent and more often woeful for the last several season but KK had reversed that pattern. I doubt if the club can find any other manager who is able to do that plus have the full confidence of fans.

 

Going back to the topic the "new system" doesn't have a public support anymore. To restore faith they probably need to scrap and build again. That would probably mean that it would be in best interests of all that Ashley would just simply sell and leave. More likely is that he will stay and fight now that things are becoming personal... he'd lose face if he would walk away now.

 

[junkhead]

I don't give a fuck about the system, because it all comes down to the football we play.. and whatever positives there were in our games, they were all down to Keegan as we'll soon find out..

personally I'm disillusioned and I have resigned to another two or three seasons of mediocrity.. bring on the next managerial sequence

[themanupstairs]

it's quite worrying the number of drama queens on this board. this mentality that they simply cannot move the f*** on and support the club regardless is probably one of the main elements holding us back as a club. there is no doubting how much we all love it. but for f***'s sake, get a grip and stop fixating on individuals.

 

in supporting NUFC at least you all know we're always in for a roller coaster ride. get on board and enjoy it. and one day......one day....it'll be our turn and the world will be ours

[themanupstairs]

You do seem to be putting Keegan on a pedastal here, Chris, but just look at his record. He's never won a major trophy. He's had a history of walking out of jobs. What success he's had has been when he's been able to outspend the opposition. His record in this second spell here hasn't been anything fantastic.

 

I think his confidence and enthusiasm for the game are quite brittle. You don't exile yourself and avoid watching a single game for three years if your motivation is as steady as it should be.

 

Of course I am, our club has been littered with more Souness' than Keegans, he was our Fergie. Looking back, what he achieved was phenomenal Bob. I don't think any one else could have done what he did for us at the time and it is no coincidence that after he left, we struggled for years to move on and I fear history will repeat itself once more.

 

Am I reading this right? Keegan was our Fergie? I know you're not comparing them as managers, because we all know Keegan can't touch Fergie in terms of quality. I understand you're comparing their respective impact on the 2 clubs. I've still got a problem with that. Fergie actually brought success and trophies to his club. In my eyes, as long as we cling on to Keegan and the memories, we won't be able to look further than 2nd place (15 pt lead blown no less).

 

 

[UV]

You do seem to be putting Keegan on a pedastal here, Chris, but just look at his record. He's never won a major trophy. He's had a history of walking out of jobs. What success he's had has been when he's been able to outspend the opposition. His record in this second spell here hasn't been anything fantastic.

 

I think his confidence and enthusiasm for the game are quite brittle. You don't exile yourself and avoid watching a single game for three years if your motivation is as steady as it should be.

 

Of course I am, our club has been littered with more Souness' than Keegans, he was our Fergie. Looking back, what he achieved was phenomenal Bob. I don't think any one else could have done what he did for us at the time and it is no coincidence that after he left, we struggled for years to move on and I fear history will repeat itself once more.

 

Am I reading this right? Keegan was our Fergie? I know you're not comparing them as managers, because we all know Keegan can't touch Fergie in terms of quality. I understand you're comparing their respective impact on the 2 clubs. I've still got a problem with that. Fergie actually brought success and trophies to his club. In my eyes, as long as we cling on to Keegan and the memories, we won't be able to look further than 2nd place (15 pt lead blown no less).

 

 

 

With Ashley in control of the purse strings we'll be forever closer to the 2nd division than to 2nd place.

[Guest The Toon Army from farawa]

Is Wise effectively our manager?

 

The reason for asking is that my understanding of a DoF is that there is a head coach who runs the team and when required asks the DoF to get certain players in and sell certain players. The DoF then goes and gets them.

 

The way the set looks at the Toon now is that Wise is in control of who comes and goes, when the new guy comes in will have to work under Wise. How long before Wise starts to pick the team?

[Mr Logic]

You do seem to be putting Keegan on a pedastal here, Chris, but just look at his record. He's never won a major trophy. He's had a history of walking out of jobs. What success he's had has been when he's been able to outspend the opposition. His record in this second spell here hasn't been anything fantastic.

 

I think his confidence and enthusiasm for the game are quite brittle. You don't exile yourself and avoid watching a single game for three years if your motivation is as steady as it should be.

 

Can't really dispute any of your comments, except the one I bolded, which I feel is a bit unfair. The squad he took over were shell-shocked from the Allardyce Total Non-football style with some pretty hard fixtures right on the horizon.

 

Perhaps his 28% win record this time around is why some people are not falling about the place over him walking out on the club for a second time?

 

The time to have gained an accurate perspective would have been at the end of this season.

 

Anyway it is all academic now, the horse has bolted so to speak.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Thing is, to me Ashley has made very few wrong decisions.

 

The previous system we had in place (while it delivered success short to medium term) was leading us into terminal decline and financial hardship. An endless media circus and managerial revolving-door, each appointement the opposite of the last. That is no way to run a football club.

 

I can only see a couple of reasons for the Ashley hating, I'm discounting the fact he's a southerner because I hoped most fans could see beyond that.

 

1) IF Keegan didn't know about his role in the system when he took the job then that was a mistake.

 

2) The emotional attachment to Keegan from his history with the club.

 

3) Dennis wise as a player was someone we all hated.

 

4) The terrific feeling of hope we had that we would be progressing as a club and out of the papers for a while, instantly crushed in a way that is very hard to deal with for us. This sense of injustice needs a scapegoat.

 

Other than that I can see what Ashley is trying to acheive with the system and I still think he can acheive it. I might be marked out as an apologist or whatever, but that's my gut feeling.

 

It could even be said that, on the surface, Keegan would be a manager that would fit into the system - a motivator, an excellent man manager but a man whose knowledge of the transfer market must have been diluted by his time out of the game.

[UV]

An endless media circus and managerial revolving-door, each appointement the opposite of the last. That is no way to run a football club.

 

Hang on, this is supposed to be a defense of Ashley?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

An endless media circus and managerial revolving-door, each appointement the opposite of the last. That is no way to run a football club.

 

Hang on, this is supposed to be a defense of Ashley?

 

Yes, he's only sacked one manager, Allardyce. There is only a media circus now because Keegan walked out and the way the fans have reacted. Until then he was keeping fairly quiet wasn't he?

[Guest Edd]

Fergie hasn't managed outside of the top division and Keegan has won a trophy, he did it in his second season with us.  I'd love to see Fergie try to get a team away from the bottom of the second division and try to get them to within touching distance of the premiership title.

 

I think Fergies trophy haul with a relatively small team from Scotland suggest he might be up to the task.

 

So you would give Jim McLean a chance then?

 

Way to take something out of context.  Mick implied that Fergie might struggle with a lesser team than ManU and I was merely saying the evidence suggests otherwise.

[Bad Mongo]

Yes, he's only sacked one manager, Allardyce. There is only a media circus now because Keegan walked out and the way the fans have reacted. Until then he was keeping fairly quiet wasn't he?

He's only sacked one manager because he's only been here for a year. He's also forced another one out. How you can claim he's any better with regards to managers is a huge mystery, because the evidence against it is staggering, and the evidence for it is absolutely non-existant.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Yes, he's only sacked one manager, Allardyce. There is only a media circus now because Keegan walked out and the way the fans have reacted. Until then he was keeping fairly quiet wasn't he?

He's only sacked one manager because he's only been here for a year. He's also forced another one out. How you can claim he's any better with regards to managers is a huge mystery, because the evidence against it is staggering, and the evidence for it is absolutely non-existant.

 

Well his decision to sack Allardyce was correct, that's all I'm saying.  And whether or not Keegan was 'forced out' we don't know.  Seems it takes a lot less to force Keegan out than might be ideal.

 

Also, I think that a manager leaving because he doesn't agree with your structure and long term plan for the club is not as bad as just hiring an endless string of big name managers, letting them run the club into the ground with reckless spending, then getting rid of them one-by-one.

 

We've all seen that the old way can't deliver consistent progress.

[merlin]

Thing is, to me Ashley has made very few wrong decisions.

 

The previous system we had in place (while it delivered success short to medium term) was leading us into terminal decline and financial hardship. An endless media circus and managerial revolving-door, each appointement the opposite of the last. That is no way to run a football club.

 

I can only see a couple of reasons for the Ashley hating, I'm discounting the fact he's a southerner because I hoped most fans could see beyond that.

 

1) IF Keegan didn't know about his role in the system when he took the job then that was a mistake.

 

2) The emotional attachment to Keegan from his history with the club.

 

3) Dennis wise as a player was someone we all hated.

 

4) The terrific feeling of hope we had that we would be progressing as a club and out of the papers for a while, instantly crushed in a way that is very hard to deal with for us. This sense of injustice needs a scapegoat.

 

Other than that I can see what Ashley is trying to acheive with the system and I still think he can acheive it. I might be marked out as an apologist or whatever, but that's my gut feeling.

 

It could even be said that, on the surface, Keegan would be a manager that would fit into the system - a motivator, an excellent man manager but a man whose knowledge of the transfer market must have been diluted by his time out of the game.

 

I keep seeing this stuff about KK's knowledge of the transfer market being diluted 'because of his time out of the game'...

 

Back in 92, he had been in Spain, playing golf, for 8 YEARS before he came back to manage NUFC - his first signing, Kilcline, helped keep the club up, and for around 1m he bought Venison, Beresford and Bracewell who all formed a crucial part of the 92/93 Promotion side AND went on to establish the club in the Prem.

He also signed Robert Lee in 1992 when he had only been back for 6 months..

 

Need I say more ?

[Bad Mongo]

Well his decision to sack Allardyce was correct, that's all I'm saying.  And whether or not Keegan was 'forced out' we don't know.  Seems it takes a lot less to force Keegan out than might be ideal.

 

Also, I think that a manager leaving because he doesn't agree with your structure and long term plan for the club is not as bad as just hiring an endless string of big name managers, letting them run the club into the ground with reckless spending, then getting rid of them one-by-one.

 

We've all seen that the old way can't deliver consistent progress.

What long term plan? Ashley has failed to deliver on his short term plan. How is he going to fulfil his long term plan if he can't even do that? We were supposed to build on the squad weren't we? Yes, we were. We were supposed to invest in new players? Yes. But the investment is negative, and we haven't added a single body to the squad.

 

The only possible reason to keep faith in Ashley's ambitions for the club is wishful thinking. He hasn't delivered, and there's no reason to believe he ever will.

[Thomson Mouse]

it's quite worrying the number of drama queens on this board. this mentality that they simply cannot move the f*** on and support the club regardless is probably one of the main elements holding us back as a club. there is no doubting how much we all love it. but for f***'s sake, get a grip and stop fixating on individuals.

 

in supporting NUFC at least you all know we're always in for a roller coaster ride. get on board and enjoy it. and one day......one day....it'll be our turn and the world will be ours

 

No, the problem with us is that there too many people who accept this media invented rollercoaster ride. Shepherd went on to long because WE failed to do anything about it. This lot will do the same, unless WE do something about it.

[Robster]

it's quite worrying the number of drama queens on this board. this mentality that they simply cannot move the f*** on and support the club regardless is probably one of the main elements holding us back as a club. there is no doubting how much we all love it. but for f***'s sake, get a grip and stop fixating on individuals.

 

in supporting NUFC at least you all know we're always in for a roller coaster ride. get on board and enjoy it. and one day......one day....it'll be our turn and the world will be ours

 

You cant possibly say that you can enjoy whats happening at the moment. No ones dedication should be called into question but you cant just blindedly avoid whats happening at boardroom level. There are always going to be decisions that we dont go along with but these latest events are just taking them all to a new level.

They are making the club a total laughing stock (even more than usual if thats possible) and more than ever it appears that they are taking the piss out of the fans

 

Its not likely to be "our turn" any day soon I am afraid

[madras]

it's quite worrying the number of drama queens on this board. this mentality that they simply cannot move the f*** on and support the club regardless is probably one of the main elements holding us back as a club. there is no doubting how much we all love it. but for f***'s sake, get a grip and stop fixating on individuals.

 

in supporting NUFC at least you all know we're always in for a roller coaster ride. get on board and enjoy it. and one day......one day....it'll be our turn and the world will be ours

 

No, the problem with us is that there too many people who accept this media invented rollercoaster ride. Shepherd went on to long because WE failed to do anything about it. This lot will do the same, unless WE do something about it.

i was speaking to a mackem at work today and he came up with the point that had wise been the manager and keegan the DoF people would still have backed keegan and had they brought in robinho and kaka behind his back he'd have said nowt.

[Thomson Mouse]

it's quite worrying the number of drama queens on this board. this mentality that they simply cannot move the f*** on and support the club regardless is probably one of the main elements holding us back as a club. there is no doubting how much we all love it. but for f***'s sake, get a grip and stop fixating on individuals.

 

in supporting NUFC at least you all know we're always in for a roller coaster ride. get on board and enjoy it. and one day......one day....it'll be our turn and the world will be ours

 

No, the problem with us is that there too many people who accept this media invented rollercoaster ride. Shepherd went on to long because WE failed to do anything about it. This lot will do the same, unless WE do something about it.

i was speaking to a mackem at work today and he came up with the point that had wise been the manager and keegan the DoF people would still have backed keegan and had they brought in robinho and kaka behind his back he'd have said nowt.

 

Understand that it was your mate, but what he said is a complete waste of breath.

[Dave]

it's quite worrying the number of drama queens on this board. this mentality that they simply cannot move the f*** on and support the club regardless is probably one of the main elements holding us back as a club. there is no doubting how much we all love it. but for f***'s sake, get a grip and stop fixating on individuals.

 

in supporting NUFC at least you all know we're always in for a roller coaster ride. get on board and enjoy it. and one day......one day....it'll be our turn and the world will be ours

 

No, the problem with us is that there too many people who accept this media invented rollercoaster ride. Shepherd went on to long because WE failed to do anything about it. This lot will do the same, unless WE do something about it.

i was speaking to a mackem at work today and he came up with the point that had wise been the manager and keegan the DoF people would still have backed keegan and had they brought in robinho and kaka behind his back he'd have said nowt.

 

Understand that it was your mate, but what he said is a complete waste of breath.

 

 

Spot on.

[Bad Mongo]

i was speaking to a mackem at work today and he came up with the point that had wise been the manager and keegan the DoF people would still have backed keegan and had they brought in robinho and kaka behind his back he'd have said nowt.

But none of this happened, so what was the point again?