Shepherd Legacy

[macbeth]

I think it is important to recognise that what NE5 says is absolutely correct, that Shepherd looked so good not because of what he did but because of what came before him. And that a manager like Gordon Lee, who managed four more seasons in the top division  before getting sacked was a great loss to NUFC, and its then incompetent directors

[NE5]

I think it is important to recognise that what NE5 says is absolutely correct, that Shepherd looked so good not because of what he did but because of what came before him. And that a manager like Gordon Lee, who managed four more seasons in the top division  before getting sacked was a great loss to NUFC, and its then incompetent directors

 

I think its important that you stick to your obsession with finance, because - like mick - you know very little about football.

 

In actual fact, you are right, it must be beginners luck.  Lee was the only manager to put together a team at NUFC under its then incompetent directors that acheived a top 5 league position in decades, until the Halls and Shepherd walked through the door.

 

Are you recommending and hoping that the club doesn't waste any money in the January transfer window, even if we are bottom of the league as a result of the prudency shown in the last 3 transfer windows ?

 

 

[Guest elbee909]

 

you clearly don't read that or understand it. Maybe its because you weren't there at the time.

 

I said "they threatened to go on strike because Lee going to Everton unsettled them and they were unhappy with the club. Not because of money. In the summer, some of them no doubt renewed contracts, but that is normal. Just like Owen has hasn't renewed his contract." Lee went to Everton in January. His last game in charge, when he broke the news to the players that he was going, was at home to Man City on January 29th to be precise. The crowd were chanting for him to stay. Don't bother disputing this like I think you did once before, its now quite clear that you were not there, or you would have been perfectly aware of all this. The players threatened to go on strike almost immediately after Lee left. Anyone supporting the club at the time would know this.

 

Nowhere in that link does it say anything about the threatened strike by the players. I'm telling you why they were going to go on strike.

 

The contract negotiations took place in the summer, exactly as I told you. This should also tell you what happens at a club that don't behave like a big club when they have good players and don't look after them. Another pointer to the Ashley regime that you either ignored when it was pointed out to you or chose to disregard it.

 

Time for you to hibernate with your tail between your legs I think.

 

Night.

 

 

 

I don't remember the players threatening to go on strike because of Lee leaving , what would have been the point if he was then managing another club?  I can't remember the fans ever singing Gordon we love you which you've claimed before .

 

see the season before the link you provided.  mackems.gif re the strike, and also this

 

http://www.toonarama.co.uk/seasons/1970s/1976-77/1976-77_diary_jan.html

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

Quoted: "rumours of his departure swept around SJ and some in the crowd sang "We love you Gordon", "Everton Hands Off" and "Westwood Out"

 

Can't you agree that maybe you weren't in the same parts of the crowd, so perhaps you won't both have heard this, if only _some_ of the crowd sang this stuff?

 

And this was 30-odd years ago, ffs.

[NE5]

 

you clearly don't read that or understand it. Maybe its because you weren't there at the time.

 

I said "they threatened to go on strike because Lee going to Everton unsettled them and they were unhappy with the club. Not because of money. In the summer, some of them no doubt renewed contracts, but that is normal. Just like Owen has hasn't renewed his contract." Lee went to Everton in January. His last game in charge, when he broke the news to the players that he was going, was at home to Man City on January 29th to be precise. The crowd were chanting for him to stay. Don't bother disputing this like I think you did once before, its now quite clear that you were not there, or you would have been perfectly aware of all this. The players threatened to go on strike almost immediately after Lee left. Anyone supporting the club at the time would know this.

 

Nowhere in that link does it say anything about the threatened strike by the players. I'm telling you why they were going to go on strike.

 

The contract negotiations took place in the summer, exactly as I told you. This should also tell you what happens at a club that don't behave like a big club when they have good players and don't look after them. Another pointer to the Ashley regime that you either ignored when it was pointed out to you or chose to disregard it.

 

Time for you to hibernate with your tail between your legs I think.

 

Night.

 

 

 

I don't remember the players threatening to go on strike because of Lee leaving , what would have been the point if he was then managing another club?  I can't remember the fans ever singing Gordon we love you which you've claimed before .

 

see the season before the link you provided.  mackems.gif re the strike, and also this

 

http://www.toonarama.co.uk/seasons/1970s/1976-77/1976-77_diary_jan.html

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

Quoted: "rumours of his departure swept around SJ and some in the crowd sang "We love you Gordon", "Everton Hands Off" and "Westwood Out"

 

Can't you agree that maybe you weren't in the same parts of the crowd, so perhaps you won't both have heard this, if only _some_ of the crowd sang this stuff?

 

And this was 30-odd years ago, ffs.

 

except that, it was the Leazes End singing, and on that day I was behind the opposite goal, and heard it clearly.

 

And for THAT, you are going to have to take my word for it.

 

Doesn't matter when it was, it shows that mick is talking out of his arse and either didn't support the team and didn't go to the match, or is making it up [how many other times ........]. I know where my money is, because every Newcastle supporter knew about the threatened strike and the reasons for it.

 

Don't expect him to admit he's been talking out of his arse, although I suppose he might have the balls if you ask him nicely..... mackems.gif mackems.gif

[macbeth]

I was in the Gallowgate End and I don't remember them singing "we love you Gordon". They may have sung "Gordon Lee's Black and White Army", as that was his song, but I don't remember every song sung that afternoon as clearly as NE5 obviously does.

 

Although I thought I remember NE5 saying he had a season ticket even then? Chucked out for a Cup game ??

[macbeth]

 

I think its important that you stick to your obsession with finance, because - like mick - you know very little about football.

Is this on my knowledge of your vague, aged recollections, or of actual from more than 30 years ago ?

 

In actual fact, you are right, it must be beginners luck.  Lee was the only manager to put together a team at NUFC under its then incompetent directors that acheived a top 5 league position in decades, until the Halls and Shepherd walked through the door.

 

I never mentioned beginners luck ?? But I'm sure it will become a fact in days to come

 

Was the manager or the directors of that time the ones who deserved the praise for that ? I think the directors deserve credit for taking a third division manager and givign him the opportunity to show what he could do. That that manger was good has to be through his skills, but also from the support from his board. If this isn't the case then Shepherd cannot be criticised for recruiting Gullit, Souness, Roeder, Allardyce, or praised for Robson.

 

Are you recommending and hoping that the club doesn't waste any money in the January transfer window, even if we are bottom of the league as a result of the prudency shown in the last 3 transfer windows ?

 

That is the bit you just can't see isn't it. It isn't prudency that has stopped the club spending money it is that the club had no money left to spend. Shepherd spent on average £9m a year more than the club could afford. Eventually the banks ran out of patience, and he ran out of things to borrow against. We were the beggars in the street asking for a little more to get us through, and the rich man saying "no, sort your finances out first".

 

We now have a different ownership, and negligible debts.  A club with no debts should be able to borrow again. It suddenly has assets of a football ground, future sponsorship money, future season ticket sales, a training ground. Under Shepherd we had promised all those things to lenders and had no other way to get cash. I'd expect money to be spent, cos now it can be.

 

In the long run I'd like us to be able to have a club that breaks even every year, or at least over say a 5 year period.  We did the "speculate" bit it, and spent £40m through 2000-2002 to get us up there in Europe, and hopefully in the CL. The subsequent three years when we finished in the top 5, the club never made any money, in fact lost £2m. The thing is you have to pay back the speculated money at some point. Shepherd did not want to do that. The profits made in those three years were all given away to shareholders rather than back to the people who lent us the money. When the banks eventually sussed that Shepherd and Hall had actually borrowed their money to give themselves huge dividends, and not to pay them back, they stopped lending us money.

 

So I expect some spend in January.

 

 

[NE5]

 

I think its important that you stick to your obsession with finance, because - like mick - you know very little about football.

Is this on my knowledge of your vague, aged recollections, or of actual from more than 30 years ago ?

 

In actual fact, you are right, it must be beginners luck.  Lee was the only manager to put together a team at NUFC under its then incompetent directors that acheived a top 5 league position in decades, until the Halls and Shepherd walked through the door.

 

I never mentioned beginners luck ?? But I'm sure it will become a fact in days to come

 

Was the manager or the directors of that time the ones who deserved the praise for that ? I think the directors deserve credit for taking a third division manager and givign him the opportunity to show what he could do. That that manger was good has to be through his skills, but also from the support from his board. If this isn't the case then Shepherd cannot be criticised for recruiting Gullit, Souness, Roeder, Allardyce, or praised for Robson.

 

Are you recommending and hoping that the club doesn't waste any money in the January transfer window, even if we are bottom of the league as a result of the prudency shown in the last 3 transfer windows ?

 

That is the bit you just can't see isn't it. It isn't prudency that has stopped the club spending money it is that the club had no money left to spend. Shepherd spent on average £9m a year more than the club could afford. Eventually the banks ran out of patience, and he ran out of things to borrow against. We were the beggars in the street asking for a little more to get us through, and the rich man saying "no, sort your finances out first".

 

We now have a different ownership, and negligible debts.  A club with no debts should be able to borrow again. It suddenly has assets of a football ground, future sponsorship money, future season ticket sales, a training ground. Under Shepherd we had promised all those things to lenders and had no other way to get cash. I'd expect money to be spent, cos now it can be.

 

In the long run I'd like us to be able to have a club that breaks even every year, or at least over say a 5 year period.  We did the "speculate" bit it, and spent £40m through 2000-2002 to get us up there in Europe, and hopefully in the CL. The subsequent three years when we finished in the top 5, the club never made any money, in fact lost £2m. The thing is you have to pay back the speculated money at some point. Shepherd did not want to do that. The profits made in those three years were all given away to shareholders rather than back to the people who lent us the money. When the banks eventually sussed that Shepherd and Hall had actually borrowed their money to give themselves huge dividends, and not to pay them back, they stopped lending us money.

 

So I expect some spend in January.

 

 

Well, if you didn't watch sunday supplement this morning, you should have.

 

They were talking about debts, and the fact that more and more clubs are running debts, and how bad it is for the future of the game in this country. And how legislation to help certify who is "good and proper owners" should be considered for the good of clubs. Of course they are right. Portsmouth are for sale, and according to one of the panel, have a wages to income ratio of 90%.

 

I bet they wish they hadn't won the FA Cup now, instead of getting their debts sorted out.

 

The bigger point being, as Chez Given [ I think ] pointed out, its a situation now whereby all the top clubs are now running debts and as he and/or someone else pointed out [scott Parkers 60's haircut ?] it isn't necessarily unsustainable, as you say, at the end of the day you are in football to win things and beat your opponents.

 

My question to you wasn't "do you think we will spend money in January", it was "would you be in favour of it". Unfortunately, due to not speculating earlier, the situation now may well be beyond recovery, and you may be counting the true cost of relegation instead, which was possibly staved off with the previous purchases of Owen and Martins.

 

As for Gordon Lee, you weren't around and neither was mick. The only reason the board appointed Gordon Lee was because he said that he could put together a good side on the cheap - and their idea of a good side back then was simply one that stayed in the top flight. When he got settled into the job though, he wanted to buy bigger players, so they were happy to let him go when they realised this. They didn't even give him the money for selling MacDonald to replace him [ie like Keegan wasn't given the money from the sale of Milner to buy his own player either].

 

 

[Mick]

I was in the Gallowgate End and I don't remember them singing "we love you Gordon". They may have sung "Gordon Lee's Black and White Army", as that was his song, but I don't remember every song sung that afternoon as clearly as NE5 obviously does.

 

Although I thought I remember NE5 saying he had a season ticket even then? Chucked out for a Cup game ??

 

He probably wasn't at the match.

[NE5]

I was in the Gallowgate End and I don't remember them singing "we love you Gordon". They may have sung "Gordon Lee's Black and White Army", as that was his song, but I don't remember every song sung that afternoon as clearly as NE5 obviously does.

 

Although I thought I remember NE5 saying he had a season ticket even then? Chucked out for a Cup game ??

 

He probably wasn't at the match.

 

as I've said, look at your own link, and my new one.

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

Clearly macbeth and you both were not at that game.

 

We can only wonder what else you are making up, or not telling how it was/is  mackems.gif

 

macbeth - yes I had a season ticket, I can't remember why I was in the Gallowgate end that day, maybe just with a mate, but you didn't have to take the same place for cup tickets, just like now.

 

I saw the Notts forest quarter final in 1974 from a different place too.

 

 

 

[NE5]

 

you clearly don't read that or understand it. Maybe its because you weren't there at the time.

 

I said "they threatened to go on strike because Lee going to Everton unsettled them and they were unhappy with the club. Not because of money. In the summer, some of them no doubt renewed contracts, but that is normal. Just like Owen has hasn't renewed his contract." Lee went to Everton in January. His last game in charge, when he broke the news to the players that he was going, was at home to Man City on January 29th to be precise. The crowd were chanting for him to stay. Don't bother disputing this like I think you did once before, its now quite clear that you were not there, or you would have been perfectly aware of all this. The players threatened to go on strike almost immediately after Lee left. Anyone supporting the club at the time would know this.

 

Nowhere in that link does it say anything about the threatened strike by the players. I'm telling you why they were going to go on strike.

 

The contract negotiations took place in the summer, exactly as I told you. This should also tell you what happens at a club that don't behave like a big club when they have good players and don't look after them. Another pointer to the Ashley regime that you either ignored when it was pointed out to you or chose to disregard it.

 

Time for you to hibernate with your tail between your legs I think.

 

Night.

 

 

 

I don't remember the players threatening to go on strike because of Lee leaving , what would have been the point if he was then managing another club?  I can't remember the fans ever singing Gordon we love you which you've claimed before .

 

see the season before the link you provided.  mackems.gif re the strike, and also this

 

http://www.toonarama.co.uk/seasons/1970s/1976-77/1976-77_diary_jan.html

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

[Mick]

 

as I've said, look at your own link, and my new one.

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

Clearly macbeth and you both were not at that game.

 

We can only wonder what else you are making up, or not telling how it was/is  mackems.gif

 

macbeth - yes I had a season ticket, I can't remember why I was in the Gallowgate end that day, maybe just with a mate, but you didn't have to take the same place for cup tickets, just like now.

 

I saw the Notts forest quarter final in 1974 from a different place too.

 

 

 

 

What end were you in against Forest?

[NE5]

 

you clearly don't read that or understand it. Maybe its because you weren't there at the time.

 

I said "they threatened to go on strike because Lee going to Everton unsettled them and they were unhappy with the club. Not because of money. In the summer, some of them no doubt renewed contracts, but that is normal. Just like Owen has hasn't renewed his contract." Lee went to Everton in January. His last game in charge, when he broke the news to the players that he was going, was at home to Man City on January 29th to be precise. The crowd were chanting for him to stay. Don't bother disputing this like I think you did once before, its now quite clear that you were not there, or you would have been perfectly aware of all this. The players threatened to go on strike almost immediately after Lee left. Anyone supporting the club at the time would know this.

 

Nowhere in that link does it say anything about the threatened strike by the players. I'm telling you why they were going to go on strike.

 

The contract negotiations took place in the summer, exactly as I told you. This should also tell you what happens at a club that don't behave like a big club when they have good players and don't look after them. Another pointer to the Ashley regime that you either ignored when it was pointed out to you or chose to disregard it.

 

Time for you to hibernate with your tail between your legs I think.

 

Night.

 

 

 

I don't remember the players threatening to go on strike because of Lee leaving , what would have been the point if he was then managing another club?  I can't remember the fans ever singing Gordon we love you which you've claimed before .

 

see the season before the link you provided.  mackems.gif re the strike, and also this

 

http://www.toonarama.co.uk/seasons/1970s/1976-77/1976-77_diary_jan.html

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

[macbeth]

 

Well, if you didn't watch sunday supplement this morning, you should have.

 

They were talking about debts, and the fact that more and more clubs are running debts, and how bad it is for the future of the game in this country. And how legislation to help certify who is "good and proper owners" should be considered for the good of clubs. Of course they are right. Portsmouth are for sale, and according to one of the panel, have a wages to income ratio of 90%. (I'm surprised you believed any of it, I know how much you hate it when people quote numbers at you. Did you believe the 90% figure ? Do you feel it is unsustainable ? What should they be aiming for ? )

 

It is just like the banks isn't it. If all the other banks are doing it it must be okay. Lets say Portsmouth can't find a buyer cos they have a shitty ground, and too much debt and go bust. Lets say they cannot pay the remaining installments on their £39m worth of spend in the last year. Suddenly other clubs are going to be light of £30m (say) of money they were expecting in. This tips those sides towrads having no money. And off the domino goes. Football does crash and burn. It was always more fragile than the banks, so there is no reason why not.

Saying "everyone else is doing it" just doesn't work in the end. Ask Northern Rock and HBOS etc

 

I bet they wish they hadn't won the FA Cup now, instead of getting their debts sorted out.

 

If Portsmouth goes the way of HBOS the fans will be very happy they had their day in the sun, to remember, but I'm 100% sure they would rather still have a team to support. I f I had to choose between NUFC existing, or not existing I would choose them being there. To paraphrase you I shoudl now ask you "but I guess you want the club to not exist as long as they get to play int he CL for a couple of years?"

 

 

The bigger point being, as Chez Given [ I think ] pointed out, its a situation now whereby all the top clubs are now running debts and as he and/or someone else pointed out [scott Parkers 60's haircut ?] it isn't necessarily unsustainable, as you say, at the end of the day you are in football to win things and beat your opponents.

 

The football finances are unsustainable. They only survive because of Sky. What if Sky went bust ? Or more realistically what if they found they couldn't afford £4bn every year and no one else felt they could currently borrow that sort of money to gamble on a product that is becoming less attractive all the time. All sounds as implausible as a bank, or two going bust ??

 

My question to you wasn't "do you think we will spend money in January", it was "would you be in favour of it". Unfortunately, due to not speculating earlier, the situation now may well be beyond recovery, and you may be counting the true cost of relegation instead, which was possibly staved off with the previous purchases of Owen and Martins.

 

I am absolutely in favour of it. The problem I have with the Owen and Martins buys were that the club had got to the point where it wasn't speculating to move up, to step towards CL, to where we may eventually catch up on the specualtion. This desperate spend was to just get the club through the next season and not be relegated. What sort of planning is that ? Every year pay over the odds for a single player to save you. Madness. And is why the club lost £32m in 2007.

 

As for Gordon Lee, you weren't around and neither was mick. The only reason the board appointed Gordon Lee was because he said that he could put together a good side on the cheap - and their idea of a good side back then was simply one that stayed in the top flight. When he got settled into the job though, he wanted to buy bigger players, so they were happy to let him go when they realised this. They didn't even give him the money for selling MacDonald to replace him [ie like Keegan wasn't given the money from the sale of Milner to buy his own player either]. (Or Robson given the Woodgate money either)

 

Sorry but I was around. You were clearly in the board room, listening to their discussions, and I have to admit I was not. I may be a lot younger than you, and wasn't allowed at that age to go to many away games, but I did not miss a single home game that Gordon Lee was in charge.

I always thought Lee wanted rid of SuperMac cos he wasn't a team player ? But again I have to admit that that thought probably came from the Chronicle at the time, you will have a better source first-hand boardroom source I'm sure.

 

Maybe the club had speculated by allowing Lee to invest in  John Bird, Roger Jones, Alan Gowling and Graham Oates and they had no cash left to invest as  the team had only finished 15th ?

 

[Thespence]

No offence lads but chill out. I had a look through this thread & I think for about 15 or more posts or is that pages yous are trying to work out who was standing in what stand & what songs were being sang in 1977 ffs.

[macbeth]

No offence lads but chill out. I had a look through this thread & I think for about 15 or more posts or is that pages yous are trying to work out who was standing in what stand & what songs were being sang in 1977 ffs.

 

in reality he's my 2nd cousin, or some such thing,  and we've always fought over who knows the most, or in his case least, about NUFC

[madras]

No offence lads but chill out. I had a look through this thread & I think for about 15 or more posts or is that pages yous are trying to work out who was standing in what stand & what songs were being sang in 1977 ffs.

 

in reality he's my 2nd cousin, or some such thing,  and we've always fought over who knows the most, or in his case least, about NUFC

it's genetic then

[ChezGiven]

[thomas]

No offence lads but chill out. I had a look through this thread & I think for about 15 or more posts or is that pages yous are trying to work out who was standing in what stand & what songs were being sang in 1977 ffs.

 

in reality he's my 2nd cousin, or some such thing,  and we've always fought over who knows the most, or in his case least, about NUFC

I do find it entertaining though, the extremes that it's taken to on here, like it's the conclusion to the trial of some crime drama miniseries.-- the entire case against/for ones credibility rests on knowing whether or not a song was sung 30 years ago.

[mrmojorisin75]

this thread has become tangible proof that evil really does exist

[macbeth]

No offence lads but chill out. I had a look through this thread & I think for about 15 or more posts or is that pages yous are trying to work out who was standing in what stand & what songs were being sang in 1977 ffs.

 

in reality he's my 2nd cousin, or some such thing,  and we've always fought over who knows the most, or in his case least, about NUFC

I do find it entertaining though, the extremes that it's taken to on here, like it's the conclusion to the trial of some crime drama miniseries.-- the entire case against/for ones credibility rests on knowing whether or not a song was sung 30 years ago.

 

if you weren't there you aren't allowed to comment

[NE5]

No offence lads but chill out. I had a look through this thread & I think for about 15 or more posts or is that pages yous are trying to work out who was standing in what stand & what songs were being sang in 1977 ffs.

 

in reality he's my 2nd cousin, or some such thing,  and we've always fought over who knows the most, or in his case least, about NUFC

I do find it entertaining though, the extremes that it's taken to on here, like it's the conclusion to the trial of some crime drama miniseries.-- the entire case against/for ones credibility rests on knowing whether or not a song was sung 30 years ago.

 

if you weren't there you aren't allowed to comment

 

you had to be there to hear fans chanting for Gordon Lee, and if you weren't you pretty certainly wouldn't have heard it.

 

Still waiting for mick to confirm this. Wonder how long it will take

 

hum hum......

 

 

[macbeth]

you had to be there to hear fans chanting for Gordon Lee, and if you weren't you pretty certainly wouldn't have heard it.

 

Still waiting for mick to confirm this. Wonder how long it will take

 

hum hum......

 

 

 

It's tense, the whole Shepherd legacy rests on his answer

[Mick]

 

you had to be there to hear fans chanting for Gordon Lee, and if you weren't you pretty certainly wouldn't have heard it.

 

Still waiting for mick to confirm this. Wonder how long it will take

 

hum hum......

 

 

 

I was in the Leazes that day and can't remember anybody singing for Gordon Lee, Fact. 

[lovejoy]

fuck me lads, are we seriously re-collecting songs that may or may not have been sung 30 years ago? and who may or may not have been there?

 

jesus wept.

[Mick]

f*** me lads, are we seriously re-collecting songs that may or may not have been sung 30 years ago? and who may or may not have been there?

 

jesus wept.

 

Yes, that's about it.