Being brave enough to play football

[TRon]

One thing which impressed me about Keegan last season considering we were in the middle of a relegation battle was this remark - about being brave enough to play football. About wanting the ball, running off the ball giving options. i don't want this to turn into a thread about Ashley this is about how many of our players are brave enough in this regard? Duff has ability, we've seen that. Geremi looks good sometimes, other times you forget he's on the pitch.

 

Why do we find it so difficult to keep the ball under pressure? Why can't our defenders pass the ball out instead of hoofing it? Is it the tactics are wrong or too many of the players are spineless or just not good enough?

[Tooj]

Agreed completely. At least when Barton & Jonas came on they both tried to take some responsibility and both actually wanted the ball.

[KaKa]

A lot of our players literally can't move.

 

Geremi and Butt in particular, killed us time and time again not just going forward but defending as well. Their lack of mobility is alarming.

 

The difference Barton and Jonas made at the end was astonishing.

 

Will Kinnear be brave enough to bench Butt though? That's the question.

[TRon]

Agreed completely. At least when Barton & Jonas came on they both tried to take some responsibility and both actually wanted the ball.

 

Exactly. It was so noticeable, and Jonas in particular is superb at holding the ball under intense pressure. It makes all the difference to whether a team can impose it's style or whether you get dragged down to Championship level. Would Man U or Chelsea plyers ever get hustled out of their game? I know they have better players but shouldn't ours be capable of at least being able to match donkeys like Sunderland for football ability?

[johnnypd]

sunderland definitely had the advantage in terms of movement. their team has legs and ours doesnt. you can get away with players like butt, geremi, guthrie and duff if you play one or two of them alongside more athletic, more imposing, quicker energetic players but not all 4 of them together. i think yorke is the only one as lethargic as our bunch, richardson and malbranque are quick, whitehead has presence, diouf and cisse are quite powerful. diouf in particular won so many challenges tracking back and picking up stray passes. was like a swarm at times.

 

on the ball was disappointing too, everyone was scared of making a mistake so we played with inhibition. Martins for instance, is usually taking shots, going on runs and taking risks, yet today he went for the easy pass every time, or slowed it down to keep possession. it's why i defend him when he gets stick, i'd rather someone attempts something dangerous than be safe and quiet, but today he did the latter.

[TRon]

sunderland definitely had the advantage in terms of movement. their team has legs and ours doesnt. you can get away with players like butt, geremi, guthrie and duff if you play one or two of them alongside more athletic, more imposing, quicker energetic players but not all 4 of them together. i think yorke is the only one as lethargic as our bunch, richardson and malbranque are quick, whitehead has presence, diouf and cisse are quite powerful. diouf in particular won so many challenges tracking back and picking up stray passes. was like a swarm at times.

 

on the ball was disappointing too, everyone was scared of making a mistake so we played with inhibition. Martins for instance, is usually taking shots, going on runs and taking risks, yet today he went for the easy pass every time, or slowed it down to keep possession. it's why i defend him when he gets stick, i'd rather someone attempts something dangerous than be safe and quiet, but today he did the latter.

 

Similar to why I tend to defend Zog as a left winger. I can see he plays head down and over-dribbles but he offers pace and movement when he's motivated. I would love to see a midfield of Zog, Barton, Guthrie and Jonas given a shot with Guthrie playing the holding role. it would be interesting to see how the extra running and movement would affect the passing.

 

Overlapping full backs would come into the equation as well in a team set out to use them.

[johnnypd]

sunderland definitely had the advantage in terms of movement. their team has legs and ours doesnt. you can get away with players like butt, geremi, guthrie and duff if you play one or two of them alongside more athletic, more imposing, quicker energetic players but not all 4 of them together. i think yorke is the only one as lethargic as our bunch, richardson and malbranque are quick, whitehead has presence, diouf and cisse are quite powerful. diouf in particular won so many challenges tracking back and picking up stray passes. was like a swarm at times.

 

on the ball was disappointing too, everyone was scared of making a mistake so we played with inhibition. Martins for instance, is usually taking shots, going on runs and taking risks, yet today he went for the easy pass every time, or slowed it down to keep possession. it's why i defend him when he gets stick, i'd rather someone attempts something dangerous than be safe and quiet, but today he did the latter.

 

Similar to why I tend to defend Zog as a left winger. I can see he plays head down and over-dribbles but he offers pace and movement when he's motivated. I would love to see a midfield of Zog, Barton, Guthrie and Jonas given a shot with Guthrie playing the holding role. it would be interesting to see how the extra running and movement would affect the passing.

 

Overlapping full backs would come into the equation as well in a team set out to use them.

 

said exactly the same thing about n'zogbia in the match thread.

 

re: overlapping fullbacks, bassong is clearly unsuited to the attacking side of the role and tbh Beye's contribution in the final third has never been great as his dribbling in tight spaces and delivery isnt great. i think he played centre-half quite a bit at strasbourg and marseille which would make sense.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

The best ever quote in football I've ever heard came from the mouth of one Sir Alex Ferguson when addressing a group of young hopefuls in that Sky One football show of his.

 

"Playing football is about having the courage to express yourself as an individual for the team and not about running through brick walls or fighting your way out of trouble. I don't want that and I don't like that. I want to see you play with this kind of courage."

 

He of course is bang on. Its a simple philosophy but it is the difference. Too many of our players play with plenty of courage when it comes to working hard and fighting for the cause but when it comes to having the courage to express themselves they go hiding.

[Neil]

I can certainly relate to this concern.

 

It's beyond me how my team, and indeed your team, are unable to provide some fairly basic movement, to keep an attack going, to keep the ball moving. We're not talking 20 quick passes followed by an overhead kick. It's a case of giving options so that random hoofs upfield are minimised, and some simple passes can be made so that the opposition have at least something to worry about. I'd have thought this sort of thing was one of the first things a footballer would learn. Obviously not.

 

I suppose it's the culture you're brought up in.

[Skirge]

Geremi would do well in Spain now, he would get the timne ont he ball he needs, as running is now not an option for him.

Jonas and Barton have to play every game now if they are fit, the long ball upto Shola crap just does not work, also Oba really suffers from that tactic. Get the ball on the deck and play does work if you have mobile players, the long ball also took Duff out of the game at least Barton will spread the ball out to the wings and not just hoof it up field.

They were to scared to over comit and push forward incase we got caught out but all it was did was out us under pressure as the ball was just coming straight back at us. I would guess that was a JK tactic and sadly it was very much a Big Sam style, you need to play to your strengths and not worry about counter acting your opoents style.

[Wullie]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

[Skeletor]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

 

Ie the success spoilt players like Butt, Geremi and Duff? I think it will just happen without saying. We need a manager with real balls.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I can certainly relate to this concern.

 

It's beyond me how my team, and indeed your team, are unable to provide some fairly basic movement, to keep an attack going, to keep the ball moving. We're not talking 20 quick passes followed by an overhead kick. It's a case of giving options so that random hoofs upfield are minimised, and some simple passes can be made so that the opposition have at least something to worry about. I'd have thought this sort of thing was one of the first things a footballer would learn. Obviously not.

 

I suppose it's the culture you're brought up in.

 

Its a training ground culture as much as anything. KK had them playing small sided games and focused on passing and moving. The result was a team that tried to play football and even though we were not winning games at first you felt because of the way we were playing or trying to play, a turning point was just around the corner and that's exactly how it transpired culminating in an excellent 4-1 victory over Spurs and on the opening day of this season a 1-1 draw at Old Trafford where for large parts we controlled the game and played what I call good technical football.

[Wullie]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

 

Ie the success spoilt players like Butt, Geremi and Duff? I think it will just happen without saying. We need a manager with real balls.

 

It'll be buzzwords like 'experience' and 'work-rate' which means precisely fuck all if the players are shite. I would fully expect Kinnear (if he's still here) to bring Smith back in.

[gray]

Can never understand how it takes us conceding a goal for them to wake up most of the time.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

The players are not shit though, average yes, but not entirely shit. Even Shola doesn't quite fall into that category. The key is to play to your strengths and to keep things simple which in football terms is passing and moving that ball. As wins follow and belief and confidence return, the team grow stronger as a whole. Big Sam didn't do that, he complicated things. Kinnear isn't complicating things but he has no tactics other than to pump it long. Shola will prosper but dear god the rest of them...

[TRon]

The reason why I used a Keegan quote is precisely because he was brave enough to keep encouraging passing football and I remember marvelling at it then. He was brave enough to take the flak when it wasn't working and eventually the players grew in stature.

 

It didn't really work until we went 4-3-3 and had three top notch strikers causing havoc in the opposition ranks. Personnel is a big part of it. Some players give the ball up easily, others don't. Jonas is a prime example of the quality needed to keep the ball under pressure, pass it then run into space. He stuck out like a sore thumb amongst the rest of the confused bumbling rabble around him.

[johnnypd]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

 

ironically everyone said, when viduka was injured, that he wasn't the sort of player you need in a relegation fight. ultimately it was his class, and also the quality of martins or owen, that pulled us out of the relegation positions, not the grafters like milner or smith who had us down there in the first place.

[Doug]

Its not 'brave' enough its 'good' enough to play football. A key part of being good at the top level is to be an athlete.

I believe our players all have skill and football brains but these are not enough on their own. If players are not athletes they are not going to be able to move themselves and the ball around in the requisite manner.

It is hard to comprehend that at premiership level you can have participants that literally cannot keep running for 90 minutes. However our team has more than its fair share of players on the pitch at any one time who fall into this category and to me that really does beggar belief.

Until that is addressed you can forget it. The dead wood has to be shipped out and younger footballing athletes brought in. The worry is that there is no one in place to be able to fund or sort this out in the January window.

[Guest Stephen927]

It's laziness combined with fear. Nobody shows themselves for the ball so the only real option, especially with teams closing down quickly, is to hoof it long.

 

A lot more communication needs to be going on between players. One thing I noticed was the ball being passed to Butt then him passing it straight back thinking he was under pressure from a bindipper when that was not the case.

[Doug]

It's laziness combined with fear. Nobody shows themselves for the ball so the only real option, especially with teams closing down quickly, is to hoof it long.

 

A lot more communication needs to be going on between players. One thing I noticed was the ball being passed to Butt then him passing it straight back thinking he was under pressure from a bindipper when that was not the case.

How can it be lazy. These people are paid a fortune they are not allowed to be lazy or not care.

I think some of them literally cant run, are past it, too old, however you want to put being physically incapable but it surely cannot be laziness, that really would be unacceptable.

[Rich]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

 

ironically everyone said, when viduka was injured, that he wasn't the sort of player you need in a relegation fight. ultimately it was his class, and also the quality of martins or owen, that pulled us out of the relegation positions, not the grafters like milner or smith who had us down there in the first place.

 

I'd walk on broken glass to get those three back up top again, with Barton, Gutierrez and one other in behind them.

 

Very good thread by the way, with some cracking points in it. Yesterday was turgid in terms of football quality and for all you can blame conditions and the nature of the game, these are professional players coming off the back of two decent results who should be better and should know better.

 

The lack of movement is the main issue for me, though, and will hopefully be resolved to some extent with the return of Gutierrez and the axing of 2/3 of yesterdays midfield. I don't believe Kinnear is deliberately trying to get us playing "long", although by the same token he's hardly a proprietor of beautiful football either.

[Nobody]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

 

ironically everyone said, when viduka was injured, that he wasn't the sort of player you need in a relegation fight. ultimately it was his class, and also the quality of martins or owen, that pulled us out of the relegation positions, not the grafters like milner or smith who had us down there in the first place.

 

I'd walk on broken glass to get those three back up top again, with Barton, Gutierrez and one other in behind them.

 

Very good thread by the way, with some cracking points in it. Yesterday was turgid in terms of football quality and for all you can blame conditions and the nature of the game, these are professional players coming off the back of two decent results who should be better and should know better.

 

The lack of movement is the main issue for me, though, and will hopefully be resolved to some extent with the return of Gutierrez and the axing of 2/3 of yesterdays midfield. I don't believe Kinnear is deliberately trying to get us playing "long", although by the same token he's hardly a proprietor of beautiful football either.

[TRon]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

 

ironically everyone said, when viduka was injured, that he wasn't the sort of player you need in a relegation fight. ultimately it was his class, and also the quality of martins or owen, that pulled us out of the relegation positions, not the grafters like milner or smith who had us down there in the first place.

 

I'd walk on broken glass to get those three back up top again, with Barton, Gutierrez and one other in behind them.

 

Very good thread by the way, with some cracking points in it. Yesterday was turgid in terms of football quality and for all you can blame conditions and the nature of the game, these are professional players coming off the back of two decent results who should be better and should know better.

 

The lack of movement is the main issue for me, though, and will hopefully be resolved to some extent with the return of Gutierrez and the axing of 2/3 of yesterdays midfield. I don't believe Kinnear is deliberately trying to get us playing "long", although by the same token he's hardly a proprietor of beautiful football either.

 

I'm with you on that Rich, while Kinnear doesn't like to fanny about, I don't think he is sending sides out to deliberately play long ball, that's more a result of players hoofing it because they are scared of losing the ball under pressure.

 

Doug, plenty of people have been saying for some time now that there aren't enough legs in midifeld, but there's more to it than just age. It does take courage to want the ball and make the runs. When we are playing badly watch how many players will pass the ball and then stop running as soon as they have got rid of it. Compare it to a team like Man U where there are constantly 3 or 4 players darting forward or peeling off, giving the man on the ball plenty of options. Finally look at Damien Duff who in the last couple of games was attacking the last defender, but yesterday in the intense heat of a derby passed backwards rather than take on his full back even with space to run into.

 

 

[johnnypd]

How long will it be before we hear "he's the type of player you need at the bottom" said about players that are exactly what you don't need at the bottom?

 

ironically everyone said, when viduka was injured, that he wasn't the sort of player you need in a relegation fight. ultimately it was his class, and also the quality of martins or owen, that pulled us out of the relegation positions, not the grafters like milner or smith who had us down there in the first place.

 

I'd walk on broken glass to get those three back up top again, with Barton, Gutierrez and one other in behind them.

 

Very good thread by the way, with some cracking points in it. Yesterday was turgid in terms of football quality and for all you can blame conditions and the nature of the game, these are professional players coming off the back of two decent results who should be better and should know better.

 

The lack of movement is the main issue for me, though, and will hopefully be resolved to some extent with the return of Gutierrez and the axing of 2/3 of yesterdays midfield. I don't believe Kinnear is deliberately trying to get us playing "long", although by the same token he's hardly a proprietor of beautiful football either.

 

I'm with you on that Rich, while Kinnear doesn't like to fanny about, I don't think he is sending sides out to deliberately play long ball, that's more a result of players hoofing it because they are scared of losing the ball under pressure.

 

Doug, plenty of people have been saying for some time now that there aren't enough legs in midifeld, but there's more to it than just age. It does take courage to want the ball and make the runs. When we are playing badly watch how many players will pass the ball and then stop running as soon as they have got rid of it. Compare it to a team like Man U where there are constantly 3 or 4 players darting forward or peeling off, giving the man on the ball plenty of options. Finally look at Damien Duff who in the last couple of games was attacking the last defender, but yesterday in the intense heat of a derby passed backwards rather than take on his full back even with space to run into.

 

 

 

going off his wimbledon days i wouldnt be suprised if kinnear WAS sending sides out to deliberately play long ball.

 

anyone know what his luton or forest teams were like a couple of years ago?