Is subbing Martins causing these late reversals?

[KaKa]

The sad thing about all this is that it is down to JK trying to keep everyone happy and pretty much payting too much attention to previous reputations.

 

Viduka imo should not be brought on to the pitch ever okay. Not unless we are losing and need an extra striker on. He is an unprofessional, fat lump who has seriously taken the piss while he has been here.

 

 

[Optimistic Nut]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

[Pilko]

Viduka should never be brought off the bench, in any circumstance. He's one of those players who takes his time to have an effect on a game. He should either start or not feature at all.

[Wullie]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

[midds]

Maybe we could flip the whole thing around?

 

Maybe we should start with Owen and Viduka and bring on Martins to use his pace when defenders are more tired? Or, better still imo, start all 3 of them? 

[Optimistic Nut]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

[Wullie]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

 

You're right, Allardyce did it at Chelsea in another pathetic display of fear last season and it ultimately cost us the game.

 

I don't know if you were there on Saturday but the chance of an Owen header or tap-in in the second half was nil. We barely got out of our half.

[TRon]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

 

All the decent teams in the premier have pace throughout their side so they could afford to sub Martins. I know if we are up against a side with quick forwards I'm usually bricking it if we go a goal behind because of the danger of getting caught on the break. On Saturday after going two goals up, if we'd went about it the right way we should have scored at least another two with Martins, Zog, Owen and Jonas in the side. Utter waste.

[Optimistic Nut]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

 

You're right, Allardyce did it at Chelsea in another pathetic display of fear last season and it ultimately cost us the game.

 

I don't know if you were there on Saturday but the chance of an Owen header or tap-in in the second half was nil. We barely got out of our half.

 

And that was the case even before Martins went off.

[Yorkie]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

 

You're right, Allardyce did it at Chelsea in another pathetic display of fear last season and it ultimately cost us the game.

 

I don't know if you were there on Saturday but the chance of an Owen header or tap-in in the second half was nil. We barely got out of our half.

 

And that was the case even before Martins went off.

 

Extinguished any possibility, though. It was simply a sign of us succumbing to the position we were in. Bollocks management.

[Wullie]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

 

You're right, Allardyce did it at Chelsea in another pathetic display of fear last season and it ultimately cost us the game.

 

I don't know if you were there on Saturday but the chance of an Owen header or tap-in in the second half was nil. We barely got out of our half.

 

And that was the case even before Martins went off.

 

But Stoke pushed right up and battered us more. Alright then why do you think Viduka and Owen was the right pairing with Stoke defending on the halfway line, one of our pacemen neutralised in central midfield, no threat or pace down the right, two of the slowest strikers in the league up front and the only person winning even 1% of headers sat back on the bench?

[Guest Heneage]

Oba's pace is ideal when a teams chasing a game, for the quick counter, so really yes.

[johnnypd]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

 

the only late owen goals i can think of are spurs and wigan, and both times martins was on the pitch iirc. i think owen will always prove a threat from set pieces no matter what period of the game we are in but if he doesnt have pace and movement ahead of him he looks poor and the team suffers as a consequence. the 2nd half against stoke was as poor a half i can remember him having, up there with the derby away game last season in terms of invisibility. Owen in and around the box - as a consequence of others pushing our side upfield - is a top class player. Owen stranded on the half way line leading the attack is championship material.

 

as others have said, take martins off and we suddenly have less pace and movement up top. we have to defend deep and resort to launching long balls to viduka and owen, neither of whom are target men, and both of whom tend to come short and pass it backwards rather than move the ball upfield or launching counter attacks.

[ElDiablo]

Maybe we could flip the whole thing around?

 

Maybe we should start with Owen and Viduka and bring on Martins to use his pace when defenders are more tired? Or, better still imo, start all 3 of them? 

 

I thought that, but unless a midfielder goes beyond them Viduka/Owen isn't very penetrative so it's easy for teams to push up, their midfielders know they can join in attacks also as they don't need to worry about being punished by the opposite numbers as they are fucking garbage.

[Wullie]

Play the three ffs. Grow a spine Joe.

[TRon]

Play the three ffs. Grow a spine Joe.

 

I doubt Joe will ever have the balls to play all three away from home. Shame because I seem to remember destroying Spurs at White Hart Lane, whereas this time we'll probably be turning cartwheels if we get 0-0 with 10 men behind the ball, and martins on the bench.

[Cronky]

The way I see it, we've got two target men in Viduka and Shola, and two finishers in Martins and Owen. The logical thing is to play one of each, and bring the others on as subs. Current injuries mean we have to make do and mend at the moment, of course.

 

Personally, I find the target man choice much easier, because Viduka struggles to compete physically these days.

 

Whether you start with Martins or Owen is tricky. Martins does have his shockers sometimes, but I'd go with him because two slow strikers are relatively easy to defend against.

 

Whether you sub Martins or Owen is a decision I'd avoid by not playing them together if at all possible.

 

[The Prophet]

Right I'm very, very bored so I've whipped a quick set of stats together for you (applies to the Premier League only):

 

Since joining us Martins has been substituted 24 times, on average around the 67th minute mark.

 

In total, after he has been benched, we have gone on to score 11 goals, interestingly we've only conceded 10.

 

Martins has come off the bench a total of six times since joining us, on average after 62 minutes. He's never scored on any of these occasions.

 

The team however have score six times after he has come on, only conceding once.

 

Under Kinnear Martins has been subbed six times. After he has left the field we have never scored and conceded twice.

 

And for knit-pickings sake and just to show off, Martins has been replaced by Owen five times. Of these five occasions the team has scored four times (Owen getting two himself) and have also conceded four times.

[Guest SB]

Why do we have to sub either Owen or Martins? Keep them both on the pitch if fit ffs. There's may options out there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not Jonas, JK!!!

[Parky]

Right I'm very, very bored so I've whipped a quick set of stats together for you (applies to the Premier League only):

 

Since joining us Martins has been substituted 24 times, on average around the 67th minute mark.

 

In total, after he has been benched, we have gone on to score 11 goals, interestingly we've only conceded 10.

 

Martins has come off the bench a total of six times since joining us, on average after 62 minutes. He's never scored on any of these occasions.

 

The team however have score six times after he has come on, only conceding once.

 

Under Kinnear Martins has been subbed six times. After he has left the field we have never scored and conceded twice.

 

And for knit-pickings sake and just to show off, Martins has been replaced by Owen five times. Of these five occasions the team has scored four times (Owen getting two himself) and have also conceded four times.

 

What's your point?

[The Prophet]

Right I'm very, very bored so I've whipped a quick set of stats together for you (applies to the Premier League only):

 

Since joining us Martins has been substituted 24 times, on average around the 67th minute mark.

 

In total, after he has been benched, we have gone on to score 11 goals, interestingly we've only conceded 10.

 

Martins has come off the bench a total of six times since joining us, on average after 62 minutes. He's never scored on any of these occasions.

 

The team however have score six times after he has come on, only conceding once.

 

Under Kinnear Martins has been subbed six times. After he has left the field we have never scored and conceded twice.

 

And for knit-pickings sake and just to show off, Martins has been replaced by Owen five times. Of these five occasions the team has scored four times (Owen getting two himself) and have also conceded four times.

 

What's your point?

 

Didn’t particularly have one...

[Parky]

Right I'm very, very bored so I've whipped a quick set of stats together for you (applies to the Premier League only):

 

Since joining us Martins has been substituted 24 times, on average around the 67th minute mark.

 

In total, after he has been benched, we have gone on to score 11 goals, interestingly we've only conceded 10.

 

Martins has come off the bench a total of six times since joining us, on average after 62 minutes. He's never scored on any of these occasions.

 

The team however have score six times after he has come on, only conceding once.

 

Under Kinnear Martins has been subbed six times. After he has left the field we have never scored and conceded twice.

 

And for knit-pickings sake and just to show off, Martins has been replaced by Owen five times. Of these five occasions the team has scored four times (Owen getting two himself) and have also conceded four times.

 

What's your point?

 

Didnt particularly have one...

 

Well if you haven't got a point make really long posts then none will notice. 

[The Prophet]

Right I'm very, very bored so I've whipped a quick set of stats together for you (applies to the Premier League only):

 

Since joining us Martins has been substituted 24 times, on average around the 67th minute mark.

 

In total, after he has been benched, we have gone on to score 11 goals, interestingly we've only conceded 10.

 

Martins has come off the bench a total of six times since joining us, on average after 62 minutes. He's never scored on any of these occasions.

 

The team however have score six times after he has come on, only conceding once.

 

Under Kinnear Martins has been subbed six times. After he has left the field we have never scored and conceded twice.

 

And for knit-pickings sake and just to show off, Martins has been replaced by Owen five times. Of these five occasions the team has scored four times (Owen getting two himself) and have also conceded four times.

 

What's your point?

 

Didn’t particularly have one...

 

Well if you haven't got a point make really long posts then none will notice. 

 

It was hardly a really long post

 

Erm...

 

Minds gone dead, you can have a point later...

[Optimistic Nut]

It's absolutely infuriating. Obviously it's not the only reason and no-one claims that Oba is perfect but his presence alone forces teams to defend a good 10-20 yards deeper as opposed to the one-paced Owen and even-less-paced Viduka. Taking him off is basically an invite to come at us without needing to worry about defending.

 

Quite why so many managers don't understand the simple concept of the best form of defence being attack is beyond me.

 

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time.

 

It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward?

 

Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game.

 

I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution.

 

the only late owen goals i can think of are spurs and wigan, and both times martins was on the pitch iirc.

 

What about Bolton at home? Coventry away? West Ham away?

[Optimistic Nut]

Right I'm very, very bored so I've whipped a quick set of stats together for you (applies to the Premier League only):

 

Since joining us Martins has been substituted 24 times, on average around the 67th minute mark.

 

In total, after he has been benched, we have gone on to score 11 goals, interestingly we've only conceded 10.

 

Martins has come off the bench a total of six times since joining us, on average after 62 minutes. He's never scored on any of these occasions.

 

The team however have score six times after he has come on, only conceding once.

 

Under Kinnear Martins has been subbed six times. After he has left the field we have never scored and conceded twice.

 

And for knit-pickings sake and just to show off, Martins has been replaced by Owen five times. Of these five occasions the team has scored four times (Owen getting two himself) and have also conceded four times.

 

What's your point?

 

Didnt particularly have one...

 

Well if you haven't got a point make really long posts then none will notice. 

 

I'd say the point was people need to stop making mountains out of molehills when it comes to Martins being subbed.