Newcastle United Supporters Trust (NUST)

[Guest Roger Kint]

Why dont we just go back to what they actually said. They claim he is making up to £7m PROFIT out of our club every month.

 

They then denied it in the second email as future profits based on promotion. Whatever your take on it this is what the NUST have said.

 

Either way Ashley is owed a minimum of £100m in the form of a loan which would be claimed first and could never in any way be classed as a PROFIT to him, NUFC or anyone else.

[UV]

In 2008 our other (non wages) costs were £50m - god knows how much of that is still there now, but the running costs of the training ground and SJP won't come cheap.

 

Compared to £28m (including £6m of exceptional items) in 2007 and £20m (including £3m of exceptional items) in 2006. That's the cost of sorting out the club's finances from the mess they were in I guess.

 

Not sure where you are coming from here. I haven't got the 2006 accounts to hand but in 2007 turnover was £87m, wages were £60m and the other costs were £61m which is why we lost £34m that year.

 

From Note 3 in the accounts - operating expenses before player amortisation & trading

 

The main expenses (I'm missing out some smaller values to save typing) are:

staff costs - £62,475,000

deprecation on fixed assets - £3,228,000 + £208,000

owen compo (£6,725,000)

operating lease payments - £1,115,000

other operating charges - £26,940,000

total = £87,411,000

 

ergo the "running costs" people are talking about = £1,115,000 + £26,940,000 = £28m (Around £6m of which is later detailed as manager and board payoffs and costs for the aborted refinancing package).

 

The £61m you are talking about I guess must include player amortisation & trading which was specifically being left out.

 

[quayside]

In 2008 our other (non wages) costs were £50m - god knows how much of that is still there now, but the running costs of the training ground and SJP won't come cheap.

 

Compared to £28m (including £6m of exceptional items) in 2007 and £20m (including £3m of exceptional items) in 2006. That's the cost of sorting out the club's finances from the mess they were in I guess.

 

Not sure where you are coming from here. I haven't got the 2006 accounts to hand but in 2007 turnover was £87m, wages were £60m and the other costs were £61m which is why we lost £34m that year.

 

From Note 3 in the accounts - operating expenses before player amortisation & trading

 

The main expenses (I'm missing out some smaller values to save typing) are:

staff costs - £62,475,000

deprecation on fixed assets - £3,228,000 + £208,000

owen compo (£6,725,000)

operating lease payments - £1,115,000

other operating charges - £26,940,000

total = £87,411,000

 

ergo the "running costs" people are talking about = £1,115,000 + £26,940,000 = £28m (Around £6m of which is later detailed as manager and board payoffs and costs for the aborted refinancing package).

 

The £61m you are talking about I guess must include player amortisation & trading which was specifically being left out.

 

 

Ok - using your definition the comparable figure in 2008 was £28m. But my reference to £50m in the post above was simply all cost except wages so yes it does include amortisation etc. The point of my post came from the earlier discussion on WBA accounts and I wouldn't recommend revisiting that particular topic   

[Happy Face]

Why dont we just go back to what they actually said. They claim he is making up to £7m PROFIT out of our club every month.

 

They then denied it in the second email as future profits based on promotion. Whatever your take on it this is what the NUST have said.

 

Either way Ashley is owed a minimum of £100m in the form of a loan which would be claimed first and could never in any way be classed as a PROFIT to him, NUFC or anyone else.

 

I've said as much myself elsewhere.

 

But if he is pulling money out of the club to recoup his outlay it rather contradicts the claims of Llambias last month who said:

 

"His commitment is unwavering and the additional large sums of money he has recently pumped into the club amply demonstrate that."

[jdckelly]

Why dont we just go back to what they actually said. They claim he is making up to £7m PROFIT out of our club every month.

 

They then denied it in the second email as future profits based on promotion. Whatever your take on it this is what the NUST have said.

 

Either way Ashley is owed a minimum of £100m in the form of a loan which would be claimed first and could never in any way be classed as a PROFIT to him, NUFC or anyone else.

 

I've said as much myself elsewhere.

 

But if he is pulling money out of the club to recoup his outlay it rather contradicts the claims of Llambias last month who said:

 

"His commitment is unwavering and the additional large sums of money he has recently pumped into the club amply demonstrate that."

and there is 0 proof whatsoever other than this utterly unsubstantiated rumour from the nust to say he is pulling out money

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Withdrawing a loan or refinancing it isn't "making a profit" of course.

 

Anyway NUST said in their second email that these figures were based on being back in the Premier League which we aren't.

 

 

Obviously, these figures are on return to the Premiership with the

extra revenue that will entail and we will have to wait to see the

actual published accounts but we think that these figures will stand

up to scrutiny.

 

 

[Happy Face]

Why dont we just go back to what they actually said. They claim he is making up to £7m PROFIT out of our club every month.

 

They then denied it in the second email as future profits based on promotion. Whatever your take on it this is what the NUST have said.

 

Either way Ashley is owed a minimum of £100m in the form of a loan which would be claimed first and could never in any way be classed as a PROFIT to him, NUFC or anyone else.

 

I've said as much myself elsewhere.

 

But if he is pulling money out of the club to recoup his outlay it rather contradicts the claims of Llambias last month who said:

 

"His commitment is unwavering and the additional large sums of money he has recently pumped into the club amply demonstrate that."

and there is 0 proof whatsoever other than this utterly unsubstantiated rumour from the nust to say he is pulling out money

 

I wouldn't call this rumour proof like.  Rumours generally don't provide proof 

 

I've learned from experience to take the opposite of what the club say as being the truth of the matter though.

[Guest Roger Kint]

Why dont we just go back to what they actually said. They claim he is making up to £7m PROFIT out of our club every month.

 

They then denied it in the second email as future profits based on promotion. Whatever your take on it this is what the NUST have said.

 

Either way Ashley is owed a minimum of £100m in the form of a loan which would be claimed first and could never in any way be classed as a PROFIT to him, NUFC or anyone else.

 

I've said as much myself elsewhere.

 

But if he is pulling money out of the club to recoup his outlay it rather contradicts the claims of Llambias last month who said:

 

"His commitment is unwavering and the additional large sums of money he has recently pumped into the club amply demonstrate that."

 

Not sure what you are getting at but its a NUST contradiction i clearly posted

[Parky]

Last time I looked we were losing about a million a month.

[Guest Roger Kint]

Last time I looked we were losing about a million a month.

 

 

Get away man, theres unfounded rumours of potential profit on the horizon being taken out now........

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The idea that Ashley has made any money out of us, or has any prospect of doing so in the future, is surely mental.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Fair play to them on the swift response. Will read it in the morning when I'm less tired to make sense of it.

 

The £7m figure comes from a respected company's Investment document

that was used to try to raise investment to buy the Club.

 

The headline figures in summary are for an investment of £95m and the

document states that they would expect "turn the investment of

£95million into a value of between £150million to £205million on

return to the Premiership.The £205m was top end but a 5% return on

investment would equate to over £84m on the predicted turnover.

 

Without going into lots of detail it is based on a £42m reduction in

wages (6months), £14m transfer fees received set against a projected

reduction of ticket revenue based on 34,000 crowds.  We are getting

crowds of 43,000 with the subsequent increase in half year season

tickets. Other reductions include  - outsourcing catering, outsourcing

match programmes, reduction of backroom staff by over 200 and still

continuing, the scaling down of the academy, a parachute payment of

£11.25m, decent television income, perimeter advertising of £50,000

per month, recent sponsorship deals etc etc

 

The perimeter advertising and large Sports Direct sign on the stand

are likely to be free advertising for his business.

 

One newspaper also came out with this same figure last week.

 

In the Sunday papers Mr Ashley said that he would not stay where he

was not wanted and would sell in the summer. We think this is why he

is waiting until then.

 

Since relegation Mr Ashley has invested an alleged £20m and that

figure has never been confirmed and the club has reduced its overdraft

without any significant investment in the playing staff.

 

Obviously, these figures are on return to the Premiership with the

extra revenue that will entail and we will have to wait to see the

actual published accounts but we think that these figures will stand

up to scrutiny.

 

Something else that's just crossed my mind, how does using the argument overdraft has reduced lend itself to him taking money out £7m a month?

[Stu]

Fair play to them on the swift response. Will read it in the morning when I'm less tired to make sense of it.

 

The £7m figure comes from a respected company's Investment document

that was used to try to raise investment to buy the Club.

 

The headline figures in summary are for an investment of £95m and the

document states that they would expect "turn the investment of

£95million into a value of between £150million to £205million on

return to the Premiership.The £205m was top end but a 5% return on

investment would equate to over £84m on the predicted turnover.

 

Without going into lots of detail it is based on a £42m reduction in

wages (6months), £14m transfer fees received set against a projected

reduction of ticket revenue based on 34,000 crowds.  We are getting

crowds of 43,000 with the subsequent increase in half year season

tickets. Other reductions include  - outsourcing catering, outsourcing

match programmes, reduction of backroom staff by over 200 and still

continuing, the scaling down of the academy, a parachute payment of

£11.25m, decent television income, perimeter advertising of £50,000

per month, recent sponsorship deals etc etc

 

The perimeter advertising and large Sports Direct sign on the stand

are likely to be free advertising for his business.

 

One newspaper also came out with this same figure last week.

 

In the Sunday papers Mr Ashley said that he would not stay where he

was not wanted and would sell in the summer. We think this is why he

is waiting until then.

 

Since relegation Mr Ashley has invested an alleged £20m and that

figure has never been confirmed and the club has reduced its overdraft

without any significant investment in the playing staff.

 

Obviously, these figures are on return to the Premiership with the

extra revenue that will entail and we will have to wait to see the

actual published accounts but we think that these figures will stand

up to scrutiny.

 

Something else that's just crossed my mind, how does using the argument overdraft has reduced lend itself to him taking money out £7m a month?

 

They are letting the people who don't know their arse from their elbow (when it comes to the club's finances) write this drivel, which seems pointless as I genuinely believe that they have local accountants and financial expertise throughout their membership (if not on the 'comittee').

 

What shocks me more is that PeasePud (congrats btw!) said to NUT on toontastic that they've recently appointed a 'PR man' and that he was signing off on all official communications from NUST....if this is correct, then I don't really see how this lot are going to be any better than Ashley & Llambias, at least Ashley has the cash

[David Icke - Son of God]

I got an e-mail back from them today. Basically the gist is that these are projections made by the club for the coming season post relegation. Incomings and outgoings were factored into the figures and after that we're making a small profit of £1.5 million, however some of the clubs estimations have been surpassed meaning that we're making more in various areas (in some cases substantially). If the clubs predictions about outgoings are correct then over the course of a season we'd, on a monthly basis, have made a tidy sum which would amount to the magic total that has got so many people so upset.

 

Obviously I still think the figures are radical (the clubs own and NUST) and there is quite a bit of guesswork involved but there does seem to be some method behind the madness. After all we haven't see a penny of the money from Martins, Duff, Beye, Bassong, Given, Milner or N'Zogbia put back into the first team and the club was being ran on bank loans all summer, bank loans which have been reduced to the allowed level but not paid off.

 

I still wouldn't have released it yet mind. It's not NUST's job to be doing a John Pilger, let the newspapers break the stories and NUST comment.

[Cronky]

I got an e-mail back from them today. Basically the gist is that these are projections made by the club for the coming season post relegation. Incomings and outgoings were factored into the figures and after that we're making a small profit of £1.5 million, however some of the clubs estimations have been surpassed meaning that we're making more in various areas (in some cases substantially). If the clubs predictions about outgoings are correct then over the course of a season we'd, on a monthly basis, have made a tidy sum which would amount to the magic total that has got so many people so upset.

 

Obviously I still think the figures are radical (the clubs own and NUST) and there is quite a bit of guesswork involved but there does seem to be some method behind the madness. After all we haven't see a penny of the money from Martins, Duff, Beye, Bassong, Given, Milner or N'Zogbia put back into the first team and the club was being ran on bank loans all summer, bank loans which have been reduced to the allowed level but not paid off.

 

I still wouldn't have released it yet mind. It's not NUST's job to be doing a John Pilger, let the newspapers break the stories and NUST comment.

 

I'd be interested to see this email if you'd care to share it.

 

The previous email reply said that the figures were based on a projected return to the Premiership.

[David Icke - Son of God]

I misread it slightly, the figures are from July until now, not over the course of the season. Anyway here's the e-mail:

 

Thanks for the email and comments and I understand your concerns.

 

The figures are from the projections for this season (since July)

 

Which were incomings £64m outgoings £62.5m  - Profit of £1.5m

 

But :

 

Player Transfers  :  predicted  0    : estimated actual  £19m    ( +£19m)

(Martins/Duff/Bassong/Beye)

 

Players Wages  :  predicted  £45m    : estimated actual  £34m  ( £11m)

 

Gate receipts    :  predicted    £22m    : estimated actual  £27m  (+£5m)

(based on 34,000 crowd)

 

Other Wages    : predicted      £8m    : estimated actual  £4m    (+£4m)

 

Tv revenue        : predicted      £5m    : estimated actual  £7.5m  (+£2.5m)

 

Catering/Shirt Sales/Sponsorship/SD perimeter advertising  -        (+£3.5m)

 

ie  £45.0m higher than predicted + above £1.5m = £46.5m over 7 months

 

 

Also consider :

 

Promotion brings in £51m extra ( £11.25m if not)

 

Staff reduction (about 200 people) and other overhead areas are still

being reduced to produce more savings. If Geremi removed from books

then another £1.5m saved

 

I've tried to ignore everything after 'Also consider'.

[Stu]

To play Devil's Advocate, if the club got it wrong about expected incomings, does that not suggest that they were also wrong about expected outgoings?

[Guest Roger Kint]

To play Devil's Advocate, if the club got it wrong about expected incomings, does that not suggest that they were also wrong about expected outgoings?

 

Considering it was stated Martins hadnt been paid for its a hell of a jump to assume we got the money up front for selling him, in reality that £19m has(like others have stated enough times) no baring on cash flow, a paper profit is pretty hard to take out of an empty bank account

[Cronky]

I misread it slightly, the figures are from July until now, not over the course of the season. Anyway here's the e-mail:

 

Thanks for the email and comments and I understand your concerns.

 

The figures are from the projections for this season (since July)

 

Which were incomings £64m outgoings £62.5m  - Profit of £1.5m

 

But :

 

Player Transfers  :  predicted   0    : estimated actual   £19m     ( +£19m)

(Martins/Duff/Bassong/Beye)

 

Players Wages   :  predicted   £45m    : estimated actual   £34m  ( £11m)

 

Gate receipts    :  predicted    £22m    : estimated actual   £27m   (+£5m)

(based on 34,000 crowd)

 

Other Wages    : predicted      £8m     : estimated actual   £4m     (+£4m)

 

Tv revenue        : predicted      £5m     : estimated actual   £7.5m   (+£2.5m)

 

Catering/Shirt Sales/Sponsorship/SD perimeter advertising  -         (+£3.5m)

 

ie  £45.0m higher than predicted + above £1.5m = £46.5m over 7 months

 

 

Also consider :

 

Promotion brings in £51m extra ( £11.25m if not)

 

Staff reduction (about 200 people) and other overhead areas are still

being reduced to produce more savings. If Geremi removed from books

then another £1.5m saved

 

I've tried to ignore everything after 'Also consider'.

 

Thanks for that.

 

As the first explanation for the £7 million figure was so different from this one, you can understand why I'm a bit sceptical about those figures.

 

Firstly, they look like annual figures, not those for 7 months.

 

Did the club really estimate that we were not going to make anything at all on the transfer market? And then ended up with an unexpected bonanza of £19 million?

 

As for the wage bill, according to that table, the club actually managed to lop £11 million off the wage bill ON TOP of the amount that they needed to lop off.

 

Hummm.....

[Guest Roger Kint]

I misread it slightly, the figures are from July until now, not over the course of the season. Anyway here's the e-mail:

 

Thanks for the email and comments and I understand your concerns.

 

The figures are from the projections for this season (since July)

 

Which were incomings £64m outgoings £62.5m  - Profit of £1.5m

 

But :

 

Player Transfers  :  predicted   0    : estimated actual   £19m     ( +£19m)

(Martins/Duff/Bassong/Beye)

 

Players Wages   :  predicted   £45m    : estimated actual   £34m  ( £11m)

 

Gate receipts    :  predicted    £22m    : estimated actual   £27m   (+£5m)

(based on 34,000 crowd)

 

Other Wages    : predicted      £8m     : estimated actual   £4m     (+£4m)

 

Tv revenue        : predicted      £5m     : estimated actual   £7.5m   (+£2.5m)

 

Catering/Shirt Sales/Sponsorship/SD perimeter advertising  -         (+£3.5m)

 

ie  £45.0m higher than predicted + above £1.5m = £46.5m over 7 months

 

 

Also consider :

 

Promotion brings in £51m extra ( £11.25m if not)

 

Staff reduction (about 200 people) and other overhead areas are still

being reduced to produce more savings. If Geremi removed from books

then another £1.5m saved

 

I've tried to ignore everything after 'Also consider'.

 

Thanks for that.

 

As the first explanation for the £7 million figure was so different from this one, you can understand why I'm a bit sceptical about those figures.

 

Firstly, they look like annual figures, not those for 7 months.

Did the club really estimate that we were not going to make anything at all on the transfer market? And then ended up with an unexpected bonanza of £19 million?

 

As for the wage bill, according to that table, the club actually managed to lop £11 million off the wage bill ON TOP of the amount that they needed to lop off.

 

Hummm.....

 

Yeah i love the way they project it out to the full season then use that projected profit back over 7 months instead, this actually gets more amateurish by the email tbh

[Liam Liam Liam O]

I misread it slightly, the figures are from July until now, not over the course of the season. Anyway here's the e-mail:

 

Thanks for the email and comments and I understand your concerns.

 

The figures are from the projections for this season (since July)

 

Which were incomings £64m outgoings £62.5m  - Profit of £1.5m

 

But :

 

Player Transfers  :  predicted   0    : estimated actual   £19m     ( +£19m)

(Martins/Duff/Bassong/Beye)

 

Players Wages   :  predicted   £45m    : estimated actual   £34m  ( £11m)

 

Gate receipts    :  predicted    £22m    : estimated actual   £27m   (+£5m)

(based on 34,000 crowd)

 

Other Wages    : predicted      £8m     : estimated actual   £4m     (+£4m)

 

Tv revenue        : predicted      £5m     : estimated actual   £7.5m   (+£2.5m)

 

Catering/Shirt Sales/Sponsorship/SD perimeter advertising  -         (+£3.5m)

 

ie  £45.0m higher than predicted + above £1.5m = £46.5m over 7 months

 

 

Also consider :

 

Promotion brings in £51m extra ( £11.25m if not)

 

Staff reduction (about 200 people) and other overhead areas are still

being reduced to produce more savings. If Geremi removed from books

then another £1.5m saved

 

I've tried to ignore everything after 'Also consider'.

 

Thanks for that.

 

As the first explanation for the £7 million figure was so different from this one, you can understand why I'm a bit sceptical about those figures.

 

Firstly, they look like annual figures, not those for 7 months.

Did the club really estimate that we were not going to make anything at all on the transfer market? And then ended up with an unexpected bonanza of £19 million?

 

As for the wage bill, according to that table, the club actually managed to lop £11 million off the wage bill ON TOP of the amount that they needed to lop off.

 

Hummm.....

 

Yeah i love the way they project it out to the full season then use that projected profit back over 7 months instead, this actually gets more amateurish by the email tbh

 

Next year's potential income less this year's expenditure still wouldn't get you close to the figures which are being quoted.

[Teasy]

The first thing that jumps out at me from those figures is the apparent predicted wage bill and predicted player sales.  Baring in mind we had a 70m wage bill before we sold those players, how on earth could the club predict a wage bill of £45m while also predicting that we'd sell no players?  Also where are they even getting the estimated figures?  Has to be there own estimations, which is just guess work.

 

Still at least its a lot more to go on then that last email.

[Guest lankybellwipe]

The first thing that jumps out at me from those figures is the apparent predicted wage bill and predicted player sales.  Baring in mind we had a 70m wage bill before we sold those players, how on earth could the club predict a wage bill of £45m while also predicting that we'd sell no players?

 

They knew Owen, Viduka were out of contract which were the big hitters that drop it to £60m

 

Lovenkrands and Cacapa were out of contract too.  Given & Nzogbia were also on the payroll that contributed to the £70m so that drops you to £55m.

 

Not sure about the other £10m like.

 

Happy Face EDIT:  Damn it Stu! 

[Stu]

 

You should definitely post more in Football LBW!

[quayside]

I misread it slightly, the figures are from July until now, not over the course of the season. Anyway here's the e-mail:

 

Thanks for the email and comments and I understand your concerns.

 

The figures are from the projections for this season (since July)

 

Which were incomings £64m outgoings £62.5m  - Profit of £1.5m

 

But :

 

Player Transfers  :  predicted   0    : estimated actual   £19m     ( +£19m)

(Martins/Duff/Bassong/Beye)

 

Players Wages   :  predicted   £45m    : estimated actual   £34m  ( £11m)

 

Gate receipts    :  predicted    £22m    : estimated actual   £27m   (+£5m)

(based on 34,000 crowd)

 

Other Wages    : predicted      £8m     : estimated actual   £4m     (+£4m)

 

Tv revenue        : predicted      £5m     : estimated actual   £7.5m   (+£2.5m)

 

Catering/Shirt Sales/Sponsorship/SD perimeter advertising  -         (+£3.5m)

 

ie  £45.0m higher than predicted + above £1.5m = £46.5m over 7 months

 

 

Also consider :

 

Promotion brings in £51m extra ( £11.25m if not)

 

Staff reduction (about 200 people) and other overhead areas are still

being reduced to produce more savings. If Geremi removed from books

then another £1.5m saved

 

I've tried to ignore everything after 'Also consider'.

 

Thanks for that.

 

As the first explanation for the £7 million figure was so different from this one, you can understand why I'm a bit sceptical about those figures.

 

Firstly, they look like annual figures, not those for 7 months.

Did the club really estimate that we were not going to make anything at all on the transfer market? And then ended up with an unexpected bonanza of £19 million?

 

As for the wage bill, according to that table, the club actually managed to lop £11 million off the wage bill ON TOP of the amount that they needed to lop off.

 

Hummm.....

 

Yeah i love the way they project it out to the full season then use that projected profit back over 7 months instead, this actually gets more amateurish by the email tbh

 

OK 

 

Like the previous email this latest one contains a lot of garbled thinking about whether these are annual amounts or for 7 months, and whether we are talking about a P&L or a cash flow.

 

However this is what is going on here IMO:

These are clearly annual amounts and are based on a 2010 projection. I don’t know whose projection – was it the clubs own work or someone external? This projection showed income of £64m, costs of £62.5m leading to a small profit of £1.5m.

 

The income in this projection included £22m from matchday revenue and £5m from TV. As for the rest of it I think the parachute payment is about £11m – so that leaves a balance of £26m, which must be commercial revenues. Commercial revenues are defined as sponsorship, merchandising, conference and banquet.

 

So in summary the income in this 2010 projection of unknown origin was £22m matchday, £16m media and £26m commercial – total £64m.

 

In 2008 when we were in the Premiership our revenue was £32m matchday, £41m media and £26m commercial – total £99m.

 

The costs in the 2010 projection are very simply £53m wages and £9.5m other costs (including amortisation, running costs of SJP etc) – total £62.5m.

 

In 2008 our wage bill was £70m and other costs were £50m – total £120m.

 

So working forward from this mystery projection and bringing in the revised estimates in the latest email (and whose revised estimates are these?) the assumption is now that the accounts for the year end 30th June 2010 will look something like this:

 

 

INCOME:

TV £8m

Parachute £11m

Matchday £27m

Commercial £29

TOTAL INCOME = £75m

 

PROFIT ON PLAYER TRADING = £19M

 

COSTS

Wages £38m

Other Costs £10m

TOTAL COSTS = £48M

 

 

Therefore Profit for the year will be £75m + £19m - £48m = £46m

 

You could question almost every number in that scenario but a few points that occur to me:

 

- Have we actually taken £32m out of our wage bill since 2008?

- Is it possible that we have cut other costs by £40m since 2008?

- Is our commercial income in the Championship really more than it was when we were in the Premiership in 2008?

 

Sorry this is so long and hope it can be followed by those interested!