Lee Clark is the old Blackpool manager

[Cajun]

Plenty slagged him off.

[Village Idiot]

Would really love to see Shearer in the lower leagues learning his trade. I just dont think he would go that far down though.

 

Like Ince? Or any other League 2 manager that would get totally bumraped after a move to the Premiership? It's not the way to go, at all. If you're gonna be a top manager you start at the top.

 

There are lots of very successful managers that started low. Ferguson for example. And there are few that haven't spent at least a decent time of apprenticeship as assistants.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Starting at the top? How does that even work? Make your mistakes at the top and they wont get punished and you'll stay in the job longer than 5 minutes?  Come on Yorkie man!

 

Surely the best way is to start low and get as far as you can go, then perhaps move to somewhere where you can take another step, and repeat. Dare I say like Steve Bruce has done.

 

 

 

Pleased Clarky's doing well.

 

 

Who was that guy ages ago on here who reckoned that Clark was better that Bobby Lee but couldn't even spell 'Clark' right? 

[Yorkie]

All i'm saying is that if he went to a League 1 or 2 side, won the division, got a job at a Premier League club - he'd be found out instantly. Probably with more likelihood than if he just went straight to a Championship/Premiership club now. Just like any other run of the mill lower-division manager would do. I really don't see that much benefit of starting at a much lower tier because the top division is a whole nuther world entirely.

 

Bruce isn't a great example btw, he's never been any lower than Championship level - think he started at Sheffield United but i'm not sure. I can't actually think of an example if i'm honest. Ferguson is hardly a good one to pick out either; Aberdeen were behind Celtic but still one of the top clubs in Scotland, and he had them in Europe within a couple years of being manager there.

 

The only managers - in recent times (which is important to point out) - that have started low and jumped into the Premiership, have failed miserably. Off the top of my head i can think of Ince and Macclesfield/MK Dons, Adams and Wycombe, Sturrock and Plymouth, Lawrie Sanchez... can't really think of too many more in the last few years. Experience is only of any worth if the context is at all relevant. If Shearer is going to be a good manager he needs to get used to the surroundings instantly. He could be the best third/fourth tier manager out there, it means nothing when you compare it to the Premiership. It's just a different kettle of fish entirely.

 

One major reason is money, really, especially if he's ever going to be our manager in an era to come. He'll need experience of building a squad and in the top league, generally speaking, you're going to need cash to be able to do it with. Working on a tiny budget with a little club won't provide any experience in that department.

 

I mean consider your managers who are generally regarded as decent in the lower divisions. The likes of Sturrock and Sanchez, and people like Bryan Laws and Simon Grayson. Are we saying Shearer should aim to be in this bracket? Put any of them in the Premiership and they'd get hammered.

 

Really do think if you're going to aim to be at the top, and you've got the opportunity, you should start there. Rather than take some poxy little job just for the sake of 'experience'; experience that has a questionable value in the top leagues anyway.

[Guest]

I think Yorkie has a point to be fair.

 

Do you think Guardiola would have had half of the success he has had if he'd started with a crap team? Some managers are like that, but I also think big-name reputations can get away with it at the top because they've got the respect of fellow top-class players at the highest level, who know how to perform for their manager even if there's certain tactical inadequacies.

 

For Lee Clark, it's natural he'd have to drop down the leagues to get a job because although he was a solid player, he'd not be given a chance at a top job without learning the ropes. For someone like Shearer however, who's known nothing in his career other than playing alongside big name players, under big name managers, etc. it'd be easier to manage in that environment imo, than if he was to go down a few leagues where he has no experience of whatsoever.

 

 

[Village Idiot]

Ferguson managed a couple clubs in Scottish Division 2, I'm sure. Of all the top managers nowadays, Mourinho spent a lot of time apprenticing with Robson and managed our youth team (in Spain's 3rd tier) for a full year, Capello was assistant for quite a few years before taking over Milan, Guardiola managed in the 4th tier, Benítez managed in the Spanish 3rd and 2nd flights... top managers just don't get top jobs by the time they get their coaching badges.

[Yorkie]

I stand corrected on Ferguson - he managed St Mirren and someone else who i forget, according to Wiki. But this was early seventies; entirely different context.

[Ronaldo]

Ferguson, Benitez, Moyes, O'Neill and Ancelotti all managed teams who weren't in the top flight. Wenger might as well have given the fact he got Nancy relegated and managed in Japan. It's a naive argument tbh Yorkie.

[OzzieMandias]

The current Premier League does not contain one single manager who started at the top, unless you count Hughes at Wales or Zola at the Italy U21s.

 

Sir Alex Ferguson began at East Stirlingshire, O'Neill at Wycombe, Moyes at Preston NE, Bruce at Sheffield United, Redknapp at Bournemouth (after assisting in Seattle and Oxford City), Allardyce at Limerick, McCarthy at Millwall, Coyle at St Johnstone, Megson at Norwich, McLeish at Motherwell, Hart at Chesterfield, Pulis at Bournemouth, Martinez at Swansea.

 

Same with the non-British managers. Ancelotti began at Reggiana, Wenger at Nancy (and came to Arsenal from Nagoya Grampus Eight in Japan), Benitez was at Real Valladolid, Osasuna and Extremadura.

[Yorkie]

No it isn't at all, ta. Like i say, consider the context. Moyes is the best example i've heard so far.

 

Gary Johnson has to be one of the best managers in the lower divisions of the last five or six years; successive promotions with Yeovil and took Bristol City up too. I doubt he'd cut it in the Premiership though. What i'm saying is that - if Shearer managed someone in League 1 or League 2, and jumped straight into the Premier League, he'd get battered. In my opinion, obvs.

[Yorkie]

Right, i just wanna set this straight cos i think my argument is being twisted a bit here. I got the impression - it was Decky's comment i picked up on first - was that whilst we're in limbo, we keep the seat warm for Shearer whilst he 'learns his trade' at a shite lower club, then jumps straight back in off the back of some 'invaluable experience'. Which, in the recent past, has proved is more than likely bound to end in tatters.

 

Ferguson started at St Mirren/East Stirling in the early/mid-1970s. He joined Man Utd in the late 80s/early 90s. If the club is willing to let Alan Shearer go away, do his own thing, put him aside for X amount of time - then sure, let him go off and have his managerial career. That will be best for both parties. But that just isn't going to happen, he's going to linger like a shadow until he's sat in the manager's seat... and past experience tells me; say he goes to (off the top of my head) Rochdale or Grimsby for a couple of years, then jumps straight onto the Newcastle United ship in the Premier League, i just think it's a bad idea.

[OzzieMandias]

I forgot Hodgson, who started out at Halmstads.

[Frazzle]

On the other hand Capello, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Sacchi, Dalglish, Deschamps and others all went straight into the top.  There's loads more who've been pretty much fast tracked straight into the top, you can't say that Guardiola worked his way up, he only did one season in a lower league and that was with Barca reserves, he didn't exactly toil in the lower leagues instead he was fast-tracked into the managers seat.  I think Yorkie's right that things are changing a bit, take a look at recent appointments at big clubs, Juve, Milan, Barca, Bordeaux all appointed ex stars/young managers.

 

I'd probably say its more of a mix, some start at the top some work their way up.  The ones who worked they way up seemed to do it because they had to i.e. they weren't big names as players.  I wouldn't say either way was better and I'm sure the likes of Capello would agree.

[lovejoy]

had a dream last night he got the ireland job.

 

not that it has anything to do with anything like.

[UV]

All i'm saying is that if he went to a League 1 or 2 side, won the division, got a job at a Premier League club - he'd be found out instantly. Probably with more likelihood than if he just went straight to a Championship/Premiership club now. Just like any other run of the mill lower-division manager would do.

 

So how exactly does the experience you get managing lower league teams taint you as a manager and make you less able than when you had no experience at all? On precisely which matters are all lower-division managers "found out" in the Premier League?

[Yorkie]

Perfectly fair questions to which i honestly don't have a concrete answer too. I don't know - but recent history pretty much proves it. I'd imagine it is something to do with the tempo of the leagues and the way you handle different types of footballer - the zillionaires of the Premier League compared to the modestly paid players of League 2; it's just a different kettle of fish altogether in so many ways. Money's a massive factor altogether i'd say, transfers inc. Look at the turgid crap Lawrie Sanchez brought in when he all of a sudden had loadsa money to play with; fair enough Hodgson came in and did something with it but Sanchez was a perfect example of someone who didn't know how to use money well. Paul Ince brought in a load of rubbish at Blackburn, too - the MK Dons captain ffs.

 

The lower divisions are lightyears away; Christ - even this division we're in now is miles behind the Premiership. Tbh, my argument looks shit cos i honestly can't think of anything technical to back it up with - all i'm saying is look at those who have done it in the last four or five years. Jumped straight from a lower division to the Premiership; they've all more-or-less failed.

[OzzieMandias]

On the other hand Capello, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Sacchi, Dalglish, Deschamps and others all went straight into the top.  There's loads more who've been pretty much fast tracked straight into the top, you can't say that Guardiola worked his way up, he only did one season in a lower league and that was with Barca reserves, he didn't exactly toil in the lower leagues instead he was fast-tracked into the managers seat.  I think Yorkie's right that things are changing a bit, take a look at recent appointments at big clubs, Juve, Milan, Barca, Bordeaux all appointed ex stars/young managers.

 

I'd probably say its more of a mix, some start at the top some work their way up.  The ones who worked they way up seemed to do it because they had to i.e. they weren't big names as players.  I wouldn't say either way was better and I'm sure the likes of Capello would agree.

 

The CV of every single current Premiership manager would suggest otherwise.

 

You mention Dalglish, for example, but Liverpool long ago abandoned the practice of appointing from within.

 

 

[Frazzle]

On the other hand Capello, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Sacchi, Dalglish, Deschamps and others all went straight into the top.  There's loads more who've been pretty much fast tracked straight into the top, you can't say that Guardiola worked his way up, he only did one season in a lower league and that was with Barca reserves, he didn't exactly toil in the lower leagues instead he was fast-tracked into the managers seat.  I think Yorkie's right that things are changing a bit, take a look at recent appointments at big clubs, Juve, Milan, Barca, Bordeaux all appointed ex stars/young managers.

 

I'd probably say its more of a mix, some start at the top some work their way up.  The ones who worked they way up seemed to do it because they had to i.e. they weren't big names as players.  I wouldn't say either way was better and I'm sure the likes of Capello would agree.

 

The CV of every single current Premiership manager would suggest otherwise.

 

You mention Dalglish, for example, but Liverpool long ago abandoned the practice of appointing from within.

 

 

 

You must have missed the bits when I started talking about Juventus, Milan etc. then.

 

Anyway Hughes, Zola (other than stuff with U21s, which was the national team to be fair) both went straight in at the top.  So did McLeish if you include the top division in other countries.  So not the CV of every current PL manager then.

[biggs]

Well done to the lad and how long till the chorus of get him to the toon starts .

[Delima]

I think it is a bit of lame reasoning to use the bacgrounds of all current premiership managers to justify starting-from-bottom theory.

 

After all this simply proves that you can start from bottom and you are still not good enough.

[OzzieMandias]

On the other hand Capello, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Sacchi, Dalglish, Deschamps and others all went straight into the top.  There's loads more who've been pretty much fast tracked straight into the top, you can't say that Guardiola worked his way up, he only did one season in a lower league and that was with Barca reserves, he didn't exactly toil in the lower leagues instead he was fast-tracked into the managers seat.  I think Yorkie's right that things are changing a bit, take a look at recent appointments at big clubs, Juve, Milan, Barca, Bordeaux all appointed ex stars/young managers.

 

I'd probably say its more of a mix, some start at the top some work their way up.  The ones who worked they way up seemed to do it because they had to i.e. they weren't big names as players.  I wouldn't say either way was better and I'm sure the likes of Capello would agree.

 

The CV of every single current Premiership manager would suggest otherwise.

 

You mention Dalglish, for example, but Liverpool long ago abandoned the practice of appointing from within.

 

 

 

You must have missed the bits when I started talking about Juventus, Milan etc. then.

 

Anyway Hughes, Zola (other than stuff with U21s, which was the national team to be fair) both went straight in at the top.  So did McLeish if you include the top division in other countries.  So not the CV of every current PL manager then.

 

If you can call Wales or the Italy U21s "the top". But they are neither "top" nor league football.

 

McLeish, as I already pointed out, started at Motherwell. I'm sure that's "top" in someone's book, but not mine, as it's way below the level he works at now.

 

So you're wrong, basically.

 

Meanwhile, let's applaud the glittering careers of those who previously stepped in at the top in the Premiership. Southgate, Gullit, Vialli... Any more examples of such resounding success?

[Village Idiot]

The point is, that - apart from some very small exceptions - one manager can't just step up to the top level without learning this trade. That can either mean starting in the lower leagues and then go up the scale or spend time as assistant manager/coach to an established manager. Capello, Mourinho... spent quite some time as assistants even if they managed at the top from the beginning.

[Frazzle]

On the other hand Capello, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Sacchi, Dalglish, Deschamps and others all went straight into the top.  There's loads more who've been pretty much fast tracked straight into the top, you can't say that Guardiola worked his way up, he only did one season in a lower league and that was with Barca reserves, he didn't exactly toil in the lower leagues instead he was fast-tracked into the managers seat.  I think Yorkie's right that things are changing a bit, take a look at recent appointments at big clubs, Juve, Milan, Barca, Bordeaux all appointed ex stars/young managers.

 

I'd probably say its more of a mix, some start at the top some work their way up.  The ones who worked they way up seemed to do it because they had to i.e. they weren't big names as players.  I wouldn't say either way was better and I'm sure the likes of Capello would agree.

 

The CV of every single current Premiership manager would suggest otherwise.

 

You mention Dalglish, for example, but Liverpool long ago abandoned the practice of appointing from within.

 

 

 

You must have missed the bits when I started talking about Juventus, Milan etc. then.

 

Anyway Hughes, Zola (other than stuff with U21s, which was the national team to be fair) both went straight in at the top.  So did McLeish if you include the top division in other countries.  So not the CV of every current PL manager then.

 

If you can call Wales or the Italy U21s "the top". But they are neither "top" nor league football.

 

McLeish, as I already pointed out, started at Motherwell. I'm sure that's "top" in someone's book, but not mine, as it's way below the level he works at now.

 

So you're wrong, basically.

 

Meanwhile, let's applaud the glittering careers of those who previously stepped in at the top in the Premiership. Southgate, Gullit, Vialli... Any more examples of such resounding success?

 

I gave other examples: Cruyff, Capello and Beckenbauer to name a few.  I don't even understand your examples?  Gullit won the FA Cup and Vialli won the League Cup, Cup Winners Cup, Super Cup and FA Cup.  Surely that shows you can go in at the top and do well?

 

Compare that to, as someone said, Gary Johnson, and it shows it doesn't always pay to start lower down.

[Frazzle]

The point is, that - apart from some very small exceptions - one manager can't just step up to the top level without learning this trade. That can either mean starting in the lower leagues and then go up the scale or spend time as assistant manager/coach to an established manager. Capello, Mourinho... spent quite some time as assistants even if they managed at the top from the beginning.

 

On the other hand, there's only a few examples of managers coming from the lower leagues and doing well when you think of all the managers who start and the lower leagues and just stay there, even with impressive records, there's hundreds of them.

 

I say if you can get a top job, take it.  If you fail, you fail.  It's better than getting stuck in the lower leagues trying to work your way up.

[Mowen]

Maybe this is why top players rarely make great managers. You don't get world class players going to learn their trade in the lower reaches of football and historically there hasn't been a great deal of success attributed to managers who have started at the top. Increasingly within the continent there do seem to be a number of younger managers springing up who played at the top level and have started high up (Blanc, Deschamps, Leonardo) so maybe this trend will begin to change.