Guest neesy111 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 When is this decision due? friday today, they have to reveal their accounts because of another court action today we will know exactly how much they owe etc, and whether they have any chance of saving themselves Is it really this friday? This report on the BBC site mentions them needing to file their finances by 4.00pm today, but then says they will return to court on 1st March over the winding up petition. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8519103.stm So does that mean that even if the finances prove they are insolvent today, they may not be wound up until 1st March, or could the winding up still happen this week, giving them another week or so to find a buyer? the judge said 1 week last wednesday Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 But surely in the event of liquidation there would still be a firesale? By definition they must have to liquidise the assets, meaning selling the players contracts, etc. I've got an amusing image of bailiffs turning up at Pompey training and loading the players into the back of a van and then the lot of them showing up at one of those govt. auctions as bankrupt stock. I'm not an expert on insolvency (thank God) but as I understand it the claim from HMRC cannot result in an administrator being appointed because only a creditor who has a floating charge can petition for an administrator to be appointed. And HMRC does not have such a charge on money owed, it is simply a preferred creditor (top of the list I think) that can call for a winding up so that assets are liquidated to settle its debt. So yes your image of the players being auctioned off to generate cash for HMRC isn't far off. Another serious point here is the fact that the club is without doubt trading whilst insolvent, which can be a criminal act. I take your point, but I'm still a bit confused. There was a lawyer on Sky Sports this morning saying that if Portsmouth couldn't find a buyer at this point, they could apply for administration and take the 9-point hit and probable relegation. My earlier point was that I couldn't see why a buyer would come in now and inherit all the debts, when they could wait until administration and only be responsible for a fraction. Basically, the choice for Portsmouth seemed to be between liquidation and administration, and a complete escape was not feasible. Unless, as you seem to be saying, that you can't apply for administration when the Inland Revenue has applied for a winding up order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 But surely in the event of liquidation there would still be a firesale? By definition they must have to liquidise the assets, meaning selling the players contracts, etc. I've got an amusing image of bailiffs turning up at Pompey training and loading the players into the back of a van and then the lot of them showing up at one of those govt. auctions as bankrupt stock. I'm not an expert on insolvency (thank God) but as I understand it the claim from HMRC cannot result in an administrator being appointed because only a creditor who has a floating charge can petition for an administrator to be appointed. And HMRC does not have such a charge on money owed, it is simply a preferred creditor (top of the list I think) that can call for a winding up so that assets are liquidated to settle its debt. So yes your image of the players being auctioned off to generate cash for HMRC isn't far off. Another serious point here is the fact that the club is without doubt trading whilst insolvent, which can be a criminal act. I take your point, but I'm still a bit confused. There was a lawyer on Sky Sports this morning saying that if Portsmouth couldn't find a buyer at this point, they could apply for administration and take the 9-point hit and probable relegation. My earlier point was that I couldn't see why a buyer would come in now and inherit all the debts, when they could wait until administration and only be responsible for a fraction. Basically, the choice for Portsmouth seemed to be between liquidation and administration, and a complete escape was not feasible. Unless, as you seem to be saying, that you can't apply for administration when the Inland Revenue has applied for a winding up order. that 9 points will be added onto next season, if they get relegated by more than 9 points i.e. just like what happened to leeds and southampton Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 ohh dear it just get's worse for pomey http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8519941.stm An arrest warrant has been issued in Dubai for the Portsmouth chairman and former owner Sulaiman Al Fahim, according to reports. The warrant relates to a disputed property deal with Al Fahim allegedly owing a sum of £1.4m. The 32-year-old - who retains a 10% share in Portsmouth - claims he is not liable for the debt. "I have done nothing wrong, I am not involved," he was quoted as telling a United Arab Emirates newspaper. Al Fahim completed a buy-out of Portsmouth in August last year, taking over from previous owner Alexandre Gaydamak, but sold to Saudi business tycoon Ali Al Faraj six weeks later on 6 October. In an unrelated matter, cash-strapped Portsmouth will appear in the High Court on Wednesday as they try to ensure their survival. Portsmouth - who have reported debts of £60m - survived a winding-up order last week on the condition that they provided a detailed statement of their finances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
healthyaddiction Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 They must be doomed http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8522283.stm Cash-strapped Portsmouth have asked the Premier League for permission to sell players outside the transfer window. However, BBC sports news correspondent Gordon Farquhar said he believes the transfer window, which ended on 1 February, is a Fifa regulation. "I don't think it's in the gift of the Premier League to allow Portsmouth to sell players outside of it," he added. The club confirmed: "We have put in a request to the Premier League to sell players outside the transfer window." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Cash-strapped Portsmouth have asked the Premier League for permission to sell players outside the transfer window. The club confirmed: "We have put in a request to the Premier League to sell players outside the transfer window." Fixed the article. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdckelly Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 the words utterly fucked comes to mind if this is their grand plan for survival Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontownman Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 wouldnt mind taking Kevin-Prince Boateng off their hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Icke - Son of God Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Chainrai making a last ditch bid to recoup his investment. Sell the players, take the money and allow the club to be wound up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 They'd have to sell people at maybe 25% of their full values at this point, everyone would know how desperate they were. Scary stuff for Pompey fans this, still can't believe they'll actually go out of business though. For some reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm really curious to see their finances, if they are really going to be made public as said. I just can't see how badly this thing has to have been mismanaged to reach this kind of situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm really curious to see their finances, if they are really going to be made public as said. I just can't see how badly this thing has to have been mismanaged to reach this kind of situation. I can. It's called spending money before you have it the bank. Everyone does it with loans, credit cards overdrafts etc. The football world has been chasing a higher league finish by borrowing money before they have earned it in order to spend loads of money on transfer fee's and wage's for players and managers to take them up the table or in to Europe. Problem is if 20 clubs do it then there has to be a high % of clubs that fail and then they can't make that money back to pay the banks off. Before the recession you could keep borrowing silly amounts of money as long as you were holding on to assests of high values. Problem is that the higher amounts you borrow the greater the interest, look at Man Utd, all that success and so many home grown players at the club (Scholes, Beckham, Butt, Giggs etc.) yet they have still got money issues. If they didn't sell Ronaldo at £80m they would have made something like a £50m loss last year. Pompey are in a state because they have borrowed far more than they can earn and now it's pay up time and they have nothing to give. When they sell players the club doesn't get all the money, agents take %'s (agents are scum in football) and as a result the money coming back is not enough to cover the amount they borrowed, let alone the interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Also, Pompey don't have the biggest grounds. We have a 52k seater stadium so we have a big potential to bring in revenue. Pompey have a ground size of 20k, so that's less than half the revenue potential straight away. I think Pompey debt is supposed to be around £60m, and Newcastle's was something like £80m a few years back. So you can get a picture of the income to debt ratio. Pompey should have not signed players like Utaka and pay the £76k a week when they don't have the income to support such a contract etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Obviously I'm talking in very crude terms, I don't have all the facts to be talking the exact truth on the situation, but just trying to give you an idea of what it could be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 That's what I'm getting to. 60m isn't such a huge debt in the grand scheme of things, particularly for a PL team. Not one to threaten dissolution at least. Unless it's all (or most of it) short term for some reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 60m isn't such a huge debt in the grand scheme of things, particularly for a PL team. It is if you have to pay it now. That would be enough to finish off most teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 They don't have to pay it all now, its the £12m they owe as tax's that may end up with them going out of existence. It might not sound like much, but their revenue isn't very big, probably around what ours is in the Championship and half of what ours was when we were in the Premiership (and of course they have to keep forking out for player wages and running costs along the way). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm really curious to see their finances, if they are really going to be made public as said. I just can't see how badly this thing has to have been mismanaged to reach this kind of situation. I can. It's called spending money before you have it the bank. Everyone does it with loans, credit cards overdrafts etc. The football world has been chasing a higher league finish by borrowing money before they have earned it in order to spend loads of money on transfer fee's and wage's for players and managers to take them up the table or in to Europe. Problem is if 20 clubs do it then there has to be a high % of clubs that fail and then they can't make that money back to pay the banks off. Before the recession you could keep borrowing silly amounts of money as long as you were holding on to assests of high values. Problem is that the higher amounts you borrow the greater the interest, look at Man Utd, all that success and so many home grown players at the club (Scholes, Beckham, Butt, Giggs etc.) yet they have still got money issues. If they didn't sell Ronaldo at £80m they would have made something like a £50m loss last year. Pompey are in a state because they have borrowed far more than they can earn and now it's pay up time and they have nothing to give. When they sell players the club doesn't get all the money, agents take %'s (agents are scum in football) and as a result the money coming back is not enough to cover the amount they borrowed, let alone the interest. That's because their money issues have little to do with Football. What I mean is the club didn't end up with that debt due to overspending, they ended up with it because the Glazers borrowed that sum to buy the club and then put the debt onto the club itself. Still can't believe that's legal.. I agree with the rest though, clubs like Portsmouth have been punching so far above their weight for so long that this was really inevitable in the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Duper Branko Strupar Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 They don't have to pay it all now, its the £12m they owe as tax's that may end up with them going out of existence. It might not sound like much, but their revenue isn't very big, probably around what ours is in the Championship and half of what ours was when we were in the Premiership (and of course they have to keep forking out for player wages and running costs along the way). I reckon every PL club should give the 0.6mil to Pompy so they can pay off the 12mil if they are struggling to pay it...dont want to see any club going out of business unless its Spurs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 That's what I'm getting to. 60m isn't such a huge debt in the grand scheme of things, particularly for a PL team. Not one to threaten dissolution at least. Unless it's all (or most of it) short term for some reason. £60m is a massive debt for a club that only has 20k stadium imo. Debts are expected to be paid back at agreed points in time. Banks have had a massive crisis globally and in the past re-structuring debt was easy as the banks won with more interest over a longer time so were happy to help. Short term gain for the club is cheaper payments, even though they pay more of a longer time. Because of the financial crisis banks won't allow you to re-negotiate your finances so as a result clubs like Pompey have overspent and have not had the success on the pitch to bring in the extra income to pay for the all money they have been spending/borrowing. Like with any lending, if you don't meet your payments then there is trouble, in particular during economic downturn. I don't think Pompeys problem is with not paying the banks back in particular, it's because they are failing to pay taxes so that's why there is more interest as the tax man doesn't do you favours like banks may. Normally I'd imagine the banks would lend money to pay off the tax debts but if Pompey are behind in payments to banks and to tax man then they are fucked unless some mega rich guy comes in and slaps down his own cash to bail them out. That's what I think anyhow, not sure how close I am to the truth though. Football in general has been spending money for fun for too long and it's finally hit that point where the bubble has burst. UEFA have already started making noises about debt free clubs only being allowed to compete in Europe in future and I believe this is a great idea as it stops clubs spending beyond their means in order to get in to Europe. £150k week wages will soon be a thing of the past unless your club is backed by billionaires. It shouldn't have got to this stage, it's fucking football. I love the game, but the game got silly with the money about 20 to 15 years ago and now it's fucking up and causing problems like Pompey's. We could be there if Fat Fred blown more borrowed cash to fund £50m a season spree's on a shite players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 They don't have to pay it all now, its the £12m they owe as tax's that may end up with them going out of existence. It might not sound like much, but their revenue isn't very big, probably around what ours is in the Championship and half of what ours was when we were in the Premiership (and of course they have to keep forking out for player wages and running costs along the way). I reckon every PL club should give the 0.6mil to Pompy so they can pay off the 12mil if they are struggling to pay it...dont want to see any club going out of business unless its Spurs I feel bad for the fans but at the end of the day their has to be consequences for overstretching yourself as far as they have. Its unfair on clubs that manage things properly if every club that doesn't is bailed out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm really curious to see their finances, if they are really going to be made public as said. I just can't see how badly this thing has to have been mismanaged to reach this kind of situation. I can. It's called spending money before you have it the bank. Everyone does it with loans, credit cards overdrafts etc. The football world has been chasing a higher league finish by borrowing money before they have earned it in order to spend loads of money on transfer fee's and wage's for players and managers to take them up the table or in to Europe. Problem is if 20 clubs do it then there has to be a high % of clubs that fail and then they can't make that money back to pay the banks off. Before the recession you could keep borrowing silly amounts of money as long as you were holding on to assests of high values. Problem is that the higher amounts you borrow the greater the interest, look at Man Utd, all that success and so many home grown players at the club (Scholes, Beckham, Butt, Giggs etc.) yet they have still got money issues. If they didn't sell Ronaldo at £80m they would have made something like a £50m loss last year. Pompey are in a state because they have borrowed far more than they can earn and now it's pay up time and they have nothing to give. When they sell players the club doesn't get all the money, agents take %'s (agents are scum in football) and as a result the money coming back is not enough to cover the amount they borrowed, let alone the interest. That's because their money issues have little to do with Football. What I mean is the club didn't end up with that debt due to overspending, they ended up with it because the Glazers borrowed that sum to buy the club and then put the debt onto the club itself. Still can't believe that's legal.. I agree with the rest though, clubs like Portsmouth have been punching so far above their weight for so long that this was really inevitable in the end. Your right, perhaps Man Utd is a bad comparison. Glazers have brought debt with them by borrowing to buy United (plus the debts they already had in business anyway). But why was Man Utd so expensive to buy? again because of the silly money that football has become valued at and the types of contracts their plays have. Thinking about it, in recent years they have been spending quite a bit. Ferdinand £29m, Rooney £27m, Carrick £17m, Valencia £17m? etc... (may be wrong on some of those prices, but point is that even Man Utd have spent heavily of late despite getting a lot of players from youth development in the 90's.). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasy Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 They have spent big but at least they could afford it. Before the Glazers came in they were relatively debt free and making massive profits, which is why they were sold for so much money. Like I said I agree with you in general though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonlane86 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm really curious to see their finances, if they are really going to be made public as said. I just can't see how badly this thing has to have been mismanaged to reach this kind of situation. Pompey are in a state because they have borrowed far more than they can earn and now it's pay up time and they have nothing to give. When they sell players the club doesn't get all the money, agents take %'s (agents are scum in football) and as a result the money coming back is not enough to cover the amount they borrowed, let alone the interest. This is what Shepherd did to us, we would have been very close to this situation had Sir John Hall not sold his shares Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thespence Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 If Pompey have to sell players can we buy there U19 England international off them who is not quite the one & only Liam O'Brien Seems canny http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11674_3120152,00.html http://www.mitre.com/liam-obrien.html But if I am honest I just want him to join us because of THAT NAME!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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