Cheick Tioté (1986-2017)

[Ronaldo]

I don't know where to start so I won't bother. Welcome to the forum; good first post.

[Varadi]

 

Yeah, but Everton's success is largely built on one of the best managers in the game. We'll never attract anyone like Moyes while these bastards own/run NUFC.

 

Was going to counter that with a smart-arse "how many manager of the year awards has Moyes won" but thought I better check first and found he's actually won it 3 times (03, 05 & 09) That's bloody impressive at a club like Everton!

 

On the plus side, in between winning it in 03 and 05 they had a shit season in 2004 (finished 17th) so maybe that's the season we're having now and Pards is going to bounce back in style next year....

[Jagten]

None of them have suddenly become bad players. It's incredible how confidence and focus affect players at that level. There are so many examples of really good players going totally off the boil and suddenly becoming Darko Pancev, and all that happened was they felt a little out of sorts or their confidence faded a bit.

 

I think it's interesting that Pardew publicly complained about players having their heads turned by devious agents, towards the end of pre-season, saying it was making his job difficult and affecting the team's preparations. I read it as a message to his players, as though he felt they weren't getting their heads down, and I think that, along with the effort to accommodate Ba, accounts for a lot of the current malaise. Tiote and Cisse are the two really glaring examples, and Tiote in particular was the subject of loads of transfer speculation.

 

To a certain extent I think what's happening is the price of overachievement. At the first sign of poor form, players like Tiote start wishing they'd played their cards differently, while their agents whisper in their ear about maybe getting that move to Arsenal back on track. At this stage in the rebuilding process, I think we're basically Everton over the last few years. Yo-yoing up and down the league from year to year and losing good players every time we get a good thing going might be our lot for a while. The big difference is that, even spending within our means, we've got more money than they have, won't struggle with debt, and if we keep a good transfer policy going (which might mean the occasional dud transfer window) we're liable to do better than them, sooner.

But Tiote’s not just out of form, and it’s not specific to this season, either – his game has fundamentally changed. No longer does he drop in between the midfield and defensive lines, effectively using his natural athleticism to press the opposition with a controlled level of aggression, keeping his distribution relatively simple and to more naturally creative players. The Tiote we saw in his debut at Everton has gone. And somebody clearly thought it was a brilliant idea – and possible – to turn him into a more complete midfielder. This was stupidty.

[Guest tollemache]

I just can't believe that's deliberate though. Why would you do that? I think a more likely explanation is that it's a by-product of other aspects of the team's play. I'm always loath to go for the 'management are imbeciles' explanation because that's rarely the answer... I must admit though, that I'm a bit stumped by it sometimes.

[Guest malandro]

I'd have thought the supporters at large would've grown out of hating Mike Ashley by now, since he's quite discernibly doing a good job and has been for a while. Compare what would've been the likely aftermath of three more years of Shepherd to where we are now, which is recovering from the Leeds that didn't quite happen thanks to about a hundred million quid of Ashley's own money. I've a feeling that his biggest mistake so far has been hiring (and then losing a popularity contest with) Kevin Keegan. That compounded the marginally less catastrophic boob of putting Dennis Wise in above him and triggered a hate campaign.

 

As far as steering the club away from ruin goes, in general terms, he's doing just great, and I certainly don't think his overall impact on the club so far warrants thinking of him as a b******... Fully aware I might just have invited a mini Ashley hate campaign of my own there, but I hope he sticks around for long enough to make his money back, because that means we'll be doing pretty well.

 

Why? He treated Keegan like s***, got us relegated by going through four managers in one season, renamed the ground, sacked Hughton and has turned SJP into one of the ugliest grounds in the PL by smearing it with SD adverts... to name but a few of his more obvious sins. Oh, and the club's debt has near enough doubled since he took over, not that his propaganda officers ever let the facts get in the way of their agenda.

 

One good season in the PL that is increasingly looking like a fluke is no basis for kissing his arse.

 

[Kanj]

Non interest bearing personal loan from the owner is a lot  f***ing better then interest bearing loan to a bank.

 

Remember that over-draft saga we had? Was a fucking nightmare man.

[Guest malandro]

Non interest bearing personal loan from the owner is a lot  f***ing better then interest bearing loan to a bank.

 

Remember that over-draft saga we had? Was a f***ing nightmare man.

 

So that makes increasing the club's debts by something like £60m ok does it? That makes to it OK for him to treat the club's heritage with contempt? Defacing the ground with SD logos ( which it is generally believed the club get no money for) is fine because he restructured the inherited debt and then proceeded to vastly increase it?

 

Defending every bad thing MA has done by harping on about Shepherd five years after he was ousted from the club is plain desperate.

 

[Guest malandro]

MA chose to pay a reported £135m for a business that (allegedly) would have ceased to exist if he hadn't restructured the debt. In other words he could either use his vast wealth to address the financial situation or lose £135m pounds. Why we should turn a blind eye to everything else he has done because he chose to protect his investment is beyond me.

 

The next set of accounts will be out in a few months and should make interesting reading. And that is all I have to say on a subject that has been done to death and really didnt need to be dragged up again.

 

Tiote has been poor this season and I'd be very surprised if anybody wanted to buy him.

 

[Guest tollemache]

I think it IS quite appropriate to step back and look at a longer period when you're talking about chairmen. Their job is to steer the club in the right direction, and as far as NUFC goes, going from Shepherd's approach to aspiring to make profit and be like Arsenal is a really important shift and something we'll benefit from for years and years. If that's where we're headed, that is great news, especially if Financial Fair Play actually works, because then we'll be right up there with a chance of doing something thanks to the fanbase and stadium... I really do look at it in terms of 5 years or more, not season-to-season because, as I've said, I think we'll yo-yo for a while like Everton have done, for many of the same reasons and it's going to be frustrating watching everyone throw their toys out of the pram during the bad times and forget about it during the good. Mind, most on here seem to have a pretty sensible approach

 

 

Anyway... this is a Cheik thread. Sorry

[Guest neesy111]

MA chose to pay a reported £135m for a business that (allegedly) would have ceased to exist if he hadn't restructured the debt. In other words he could either use his vast wealth to address the financial situation or lose £135m pounds. Why we should turn a blind eye to everything else he has done because he chose to protect his investment is beyond me.

 

The next set of accounts will be out in a few months and should make interesting reading. And that is all I have to say on a subject that has been done to death and really didnt need to be dragged up again.

 

Tiote has been poor this season and I'd be very surprised if anybody wanted to buy him.

 

 

Any money Ashley lost to do with long term debt at the club is all his own making.  You really have to be an idiot to not do due diligence on any business you want to take over.

[Guest tollemache]

True, he cocked up. Fact remains though: no Shepherd recklessness, some schmuck coming in and being sensible = good, whether he's forced to or not. Cheik!

[Guest neesy111]

Fans have to see some ambition though and so do some of our players or they'll be off.

[Guest tollemache]

There's certainly a balance to be struck. Next couple of transfer windows will be interesting. You can afford a dud one here and there - in fact you should be worried if you're bringing in all your targets at whatever price - but 2 or 3 in a row will kill you, making it worth the extra expense. They're making the right noises about January so far though, right?

 

All the same, I don't think it was ludicrous to think that a side that finished 5th would at least get a decent top half finish if it stayed together, which it did. Not many would've anticipated a slide like this, and there'd be no talk of a lack of ambition if we were currently in 8th.

[Guest malandro]

Tiote was one of three players (the other two being Cabaye and Cisse) that earned Graham Carr his wonderscout reputation, but his form this season might be the first indication that GC isn't a miracle worker after all. There is no question he looked a very good player early on but after a while the booking every other game problem became apparent, with him missing a large amount games. This season his form has dipped dramatically and after his SO against Sunderland he seems to be confused - moving between being a clumsy free kick generator to an ineffectual wonder pass failure. Throw in his farting about on the edge of his own box and careless back passes and we might be seeing why he was available for £3m. Still a bargain but not quite a wonder signing, and perhaps a good example of why we might struggle to build a consistently good team while the club sticks to its policy of targeting bargains

[Guest tollemache]

I don't think it's fair to blame a collapse in form a full very impressive season down the line on the scout... How do you scout for that!?

[Tooj]

How can you blame Carr for Tiote's dip in form in his third season?

 

Is he the reason for Cisse and Cabaye's poor form this season too?

 

Obviously fuck all to do with the manager.

[Guest malandro]

How can you blame Carr for Tiote's dip in form in his third season?

 

Is he the reason for Cisse and Cabaye's poor form this season too?

 

Obviously f*** all to do with the manager.

 

I'm not. I'm asking if the reason Tiote cost £3m is because there are issues with his game that weren't quickly apparent, and not because GC was the only scout in Europe who recognised his hidden brilliance.

 

It's an import question because the club's transfer policy is heavily dependent on GC and his much hyped (and possibly exaggerated) ability to spot the potential in players lesser scouts can't.

 

[Guest tollemache]

I don't see how you can do a better job as a scout than find a player for £3m who subsequently sets the league alight and finds himself linked with big money moves to top clubs. If the brief is to find players with great resale value, that's about as good as it gets. If the brief had been to find superstars no matter what their value, then you'd have some justification for quibbling over the signing of Tiote, but it wasn't. He could play like dogshite for the rest of the season and we'd almost certainly still make a decent profit on him.

 

Or do you think it's fair to demand more of Carr? That he should sign players for under £5m whose form never ever dips? We don't know exactly how much Cabaye cost, but that's a Champions League-standard playmaker... I mean, he's clearly done an absolutely superb job

[Guest malandro]

I'm not criticising GC. I'm questioning if his ability has been overhyped. As you say if selling players for more than we pay for them is the club's only objective he's done a good job, but there's more to scouting than being able to spot a bargain. Bringing in Chopra on a free and selling him for £500k might generate a transfer profit but wouldn't be of any benefit to building a good team, in the same way bringing in Oberton and Marveux has been a waste of time....

 

Tiote is a one trick pony. His passing ability is poor. His shooting is poor. All he can do is break up play and he can't even manage that without getting booked every other game. He also still hasn't learnt to stop taking risks around his own penalty area, which suggests he plays the way he plays and can't adapt. He was good value at £3m and the club would make a decent profit if they sold him next month, but in terms of building a competitive team that plays attractive football he isn't good enough.

 

[Guest tollemache]

Disagree. He's shown he's a really good player, he's just not playing well at the moment. There was nothing at all wrong with his distribution last season for example. He can do it, and he has. I don't see any reason to write him off as a dud

[Guest malandro]

He's not a dud, and I never said he was. He's OK. Better than the £3m we paid for him but nowhere near as good as his hype. More Winston Palacios than Claude Makélélé. More importantly he demonstrates that no matter how good GCs bargain hunting is building a team by targeting bargains is a game of chance not a coherent strategy.

 

Interesting article in today's Journal about AP telling him to curb his aggression, or in other words telling him to stop using his biggest (and possibly only) strength to avoid getting booked.

 

[Mick]

Disagree. He's shown he's a really good player, he's just not playing well at the moment. There was nothing at all wrong with his distribution last season for example. He can do it, and he has. I don't see any reason to write him off as a dud

 

His distribution was a problem last season when he came back from injury or suspension, not that he's a poor footballer.  He does struggle though when he's been out of the team for whatever reason and this season he's still struggling and been in the team for about a month since he was injured.

[Guest micky_123]

Tiote has been absolutely hopeless this season. Reckless challenge after reckless challenge every game, as well as giving the ball away over and over again when he isn't even under pressure. He did this last season as well to a lesser extent. If one of our other midfielders has put in the performance he did against Fulham everybody would be furious.

[Guest tollemache]

He's not a dud, and I never said he was. He's OK. Better than the £3m we paid for him but nowhere near as good as his hype. More Winston Palacios than Claude Makélélé. More importantly he demonstrates that no matter how good GCs bargain hunting is building a team by targeting bargains is a game of chance not a coherent strategy.

 

Interesting article in today's Journal about AP telling him to curb his aggression, or in other words telling him to stop using his biggest (and possibly only) strength to avoid getting booked.

 

Targeting bargains is not a coherent strategy if what you want is to immediately have a superb team, but if you're good at it (which we seem to be), it's a great way to make sure you're upwardly mobile.

[Guest malandro]

In terms of team building its a farce. Consider Cisse, he may or may not rediscover some of last seasons from but he is a poor partner for Ba, who we signed because he was available on a free. Our resale value transfer strategy results in making it up as we go along team building, which isn't a basis for sustained progress.

 

We need a left back but won't sign one because we can't get a bargain. We need a CH but won't sign one because GC can't pull a rabbit out of the hat. We need a left sided midfielder but bought Marveux because his injury record made him cheap.

 

It's crap.