Not worthy of a thread - 2018 FIFA World Cup edition

[Guest chopey]

I agree with Henke

[triggs]

Argentina won the final scoring three goals, none of which Maradona scored. They couldn't have been that shit other than him

[Guest chopey]

If Messi moves to NUFC in the summer and we win the league for the next two seasons I'll put him above Maradona

[Away Day Gadgie]

Messi is on another planet like.  I find it amazing that some people can't see it but everyone's entitled to their opinion.  He'll probably end up with more career goals than the likes of Maradona, Zidane and Cruyff made appearances.  Absolutely crazy!

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Messi is on another planet like.  I find it amazing that some people can't see it but everyone's entitled to their opinion.  He'll probably end up with more career goals than the likes of Maradona, Zidane and Cruyff made appearances.  Absolutely crazy!

 

[Yorkie]

91 goals in 2012.

[Mole_Toonfan]

FWIW I don't think the World Cup is the measure anymore tbh. It's still the greatest tournament, but it's not a yardstick to measure footballers by. It's genuinely the only thing left to throw at Messi as well, and tbh he nearly dragged Argentina to a World Cup win (particularly in the group stages) when he was nowhere near his best after just coming back from injury. His clutch moments and big game moments are other-worldly at times.

 

For me there's no comparison between Messi and anyone tbh. I know people say it's close between him and Ronaldo, Maradona, Pele, whoever else, but for me it's stratospheric in terms of what I see. I'll always hold back on Pele and Maradona though, purely because I don't think you can really comment with any authority on something you haven't seen at the time, but with everyone else in my lifetime it's not even close. Maybe original Ronaldo for that one season, but nah not really, part of what's so insane about Messi is that he's been doing it consistently for a decade with absolutely everyone including the best managers, defensive coaches, defenders, and 'keepers knowing exactly what he's about, what he's capable of, at times what he's going to do, and yet he still does it quite often while making them look like absolute mugs, simply because he cannot be stopped. For me whenever Messi doesn't win the Ballon D'or it's when he's slightly off his form, rather than anyone else being able to touch him when he's at his best, because when he's at his best, everyone else can be and they'll still be nowhere near him and what he can do.

 

I completely agree, mainly because club football is of a much higher level now compared to international football. I mean as i have said before the current world champions are basically Bayern Munich without Lewandowski, Thiago, Vidal, Robben, Alaba, Ribery etc etc.

 

How far would that team get in the CL? probably 2nd round at best.(unless they get an easy draw) I never understood the mindset that you need to win a WC anyway tbh, it's like saying Maradona needed to win the European Cup but does anyone said that? like fuck do they, also if you want to make the argument my case would be that Maradona's club career doesn't come close to Messi and many others.

 

I would say the closest player outside the generation in terms of joint international and club resume would be Cruyff. Lastly this is just a theory but i get the feeling that the reason the World Cup was so revered back then was because people never saw these players outside of that tournament, where as today we get to watch La Liga, Serie A and so on every week.

 

[Hanshithispantz]

The German world cup squad of 2014 would be class though, they'd probably be in with a strong chance of winning any Champions League. Same with the Spain side that dominated before them. I get the point and agree with the jist of it but the top few nations usually have ridiculous squads.

 

 

1 Manuel Neuer goalkeeper, Bayern Munich

 

2 Kevin Grosskreutz defender, Borussia Dortmund

 

3 Matthias Ginter midfielder, Freiburg

 

4 Benedikt Höwedes defender, Schalke

 

5 Mats Hummels defender, Borussia Dortmund

 

6 Sami Khedira midfielder, Real Madrid

 

7 Bastian Schweinsteiger midfielder, Bayern Munich

 

8 Mesut Özil midfielder, Arsenal

 

9 André Schürrle midfielder, Chelsea

 

10 Lukas Podolski midfielder, Arsenal

 

11 Miroslav Klose forward, Lazio

 

12 Ron-Robert Zieler goalkeeper, Hannover

 

13 Thomas Müller midfielder, Bayern Munich

 

14 Julian Draxler midfielder, Schalke

 

15 Erik Durm defender, Borussia Dortmund

 

16 Philipp Lahm (captain) defender, Bayern Munich

 

17 Per Mertesacker defender, Arsenal

 

18 Toni Kroos midfielder, Bayern Munich

 

19 Mario Götze midfielder, Bayern Munich

 

20 Jérôme Boateng defender, Bayern Munich

 

21 Shkodran Mustafi defender, Sampdoria

 

22 Roman Weidenfeller goalkeeper, Borussia Dortmund

 

23 Christoph Kramer midfielder, Borussia Mönchengladbach

 

 

Their current squad has Werner, Ozil, Keidra, Sane, Gotze, Kroos, Howedes etc etc from outside of Bayern too.

[Mole_Toonfan]

I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though.

[Flip]

I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though.

 

Yeah, you also said only Cruyff out of generation comes close. You do talk some shit. Agree with KI in the sense that Messi is for me the best I've seen and by far as well, but I'm yet to talk to one that has seen Messi and Maradona throughout their careers say Messi is the better player which I find so hard to believe. Same goes regarding the ones who have seen Pele. In the end I'm happy I've gotten to see Messi play because in terms of career and winning trophies, I think Cristiano might actually have had a better one.

[STM]

I'm not sure it's possible to actually get better than Messi. Maradona might be pretty much on par but since he's an utter cunt, it doesn't count. Same goes for Ronaldo for that matter. Tosser.

 

Not jealous at all. 

[Guest firetotheworks]

I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though.

 

Yeah, you also said only Cruyff out of generation comes close. You do talk some shit. Agree with KI in the sense that Messi is for me the best I've seen and by far as well, but I'm yet to talk to one that has seen Messi and Maradona throughout their careers say Messi is the better player which I find so hard to believe. Same goes regarding the ones who have seen Pele. In the end I'm happy I've gotten to see Messi play because in terms of career and winning trophies, I think Cristiano might actually have had a better one.

 

You might not know anyone personally who reckons Messi is better, but there are many in the game who have seen both and in some cases played against Maradona who reckon Messi is the best of all time. I think it's only my girlfriend's dad who I know that's seen both and he reckons Messi's far superior to anyone he's ever seen like. He doesn't like Maradona because of the Hand of God stuff and all that though, so there's that. I think he'd actually have Cruyff ahead of Maradona as well tbh.

[Marmoset]

It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi.

 

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi.

 

 

 

That might be the case with fans, but the following pundits and ex pros are all quoted as saying he's the best ever having seen both Messi and Maradona, with some of them having seen Pele as well.

 

Wenger, Simone, Guardiola, Beckenbaur, Venebles, Souness, Gullit, Lineker, Tostão, Adriano Galliani, Marcial Pina, Keane, Wright, Shearer, Maldini, original Ronaldo, and Cassano.

 

 

[Incognito]

Maradona is under rated these days but even so I'm coming round to the idea that Lionel supercedes him. Pele however is a different bag of onions. 

 

 

 

[Mole_Toonfan]

I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though.

 

Yeah, you also said only Cruyff out of generation comes close. You do talk some s***. Agree with KI in the sense that Messi is for me the best I've seen and by far as well, but I'm yet to talk to one that has seen Messi and Maradona throughout their careers say Messi is the better player which I find so hard to believe. Same goes regarding the ones who have seen Pele. In the end I'm happy I've gotten to see Messi play because in terms of career and winning trophies, I think Cristiano might actually have had a better one.

 

I said in terms of achievements, don't see how I am wrong considering his success with Holland and Ajax.

 

Very few have had a club and an international career with so much success, maybe instead of saying "you don't half talk some shit"  you should read what I said more carefully.

[Flip]

It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi.

 

 

 

That might be the case with fans, but the following pundits and ex pros are all quoted as saying he's the best ever having seen both Messi and Maradona, with some of them having seen Pele as well.

 

Wenger, Simone, Guardiola, Beckenbaur, Venebles, Souness, Gullit, Lineker, Tostão, Adriano Galliani, Marcial Pina, Keane, Wright, Shearer, Maldini, original Ronaldo, and Cassano.

 

 

 

Fake news.

 

Why invent a list? Beckenbauer, Ronaldo and Tostao all have said Pele from that I know of. Not sure about the rest though.

[Guest firetotheworks]

It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi.

 

 

 

That might be the case with fans, but the following pundits and ex pros are all quoted as saying he's the best ever having seen both Messi and Maradona, with some of them having seen Pele as well.

 

Wenger, Simone, Guardiola, Beckenbaur, Venebles, Souness, Gullit, Lineker, Tostão, Adriano Galliani, Marcial Pina, Keane, Wright, Shearer, Maldini, original Ronaldo, and Cassano.

 

 

 

Fake news.

 

Why invent a list? Beckenbauer, Ronaldo and Tostao all have said Pele from that I know of. Not sure about the rest though.

 

You could always have googled it instead of calling me a liar, like.

 

I messed up with Beckenbaur, but...

 

Tostao - "Messi is better than Maradona; he is more complete, more consistent, more spectacular. He is reinventing the game – a mix of the real and the virtual."

 

Ronaldo - "Does Messi deserve to be called the greatest player in the world? Yes, for sure."

 

EDIT: Yep, they don't say he's the best ever. It was a mistake though, I didn't 'invent' anything.

 

All from here: https://genius.com/Lionel-messi-quotes-on-lionel-messi-annotated

 

 

 

 

[afar]

Such a shame this is the last international break for a while, I do look forward to these pointless international friendlies and the chance to get away from following my team for a couple of weeks.

[Hanshithispantz]

Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better.

 

It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better".

[Kaizero]

Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better.

 

It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so their has to be some perspective there, but it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better".

 

Think it's more about the impact Maradona had on his teams vs the impact Messi has had rather than pure technical skill, tbh. At least that's how I see the argument.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better.

 

It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better".

 

The modern players thing works both ways as well tbf. The training, nutrition and so on is better all-round so regardless of the perceived level of quality between eras, the players he's coming up against are definitely fitter, almost certainly faster, and probably with a higher level of stamina.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I know he gets a lot of jip from us, but Souness sums it up perfectly when he talks about him on 'This Happens When Lionel Messi Faces The Greatest Defenders' - He's been saying he's the greatest of all time since 2011 as well tbf.

[Hanshithispantz]

Souness is one of the better pundits tbh. I think he went through a period of bitterness towards us but whenever I've seen him recently especially he's been really good.

[triggs]

Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better.

 

It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better".

Won the World Cup with ten guys who'd never kicked a football before iirc