Alan Pardew

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

Pardew's insistence on not playing youngsters and playing his 'guys' is becoming more and more frustrating.

 

Which youngsters would you have played?

 

Abeid > Smith.

 

An actual centre back (Kadar) > Perch.

 

Santon > Raylor (before this game obviously).

 

Same Kadar that was actually a full back when he joined but played centre half due to injurys/suspensions/lack of CB's?

 

Fairly sure that's bullshit.

[Dave]

Michael vs Michael! Go on Michael.

 

Michael.

[Ronaldo]

I think he was a LB.

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

"I would play in the centre of the defence. I admit this (central) is my favourite place on the pitch."

 

Could still be wrong.

[David Icke - Son of God]

He was a LB come CB who played on the RB once or twice due to injuries.

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

Michael vs Michael! Go on Michael.

 

Michael.

 

[Ronaldo]

Michael lost.

 

Take that Michael, you fucking tool.

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

[Sifu]

Pardew's decisions today were poor really. He should have given Kadar a chance imo, after all he was our only fit CB. Having said that in terms of his starting CBs today, Pardew started with the next best choice in Simpson and Perch. (Should have been Kadar and Perch really).

 

Pardew should have also put on Ben Arfa at some point, certainly when the game was still 3-2. The lad would have been useful when we were chasing the game. Don't think there's a problem between Pardew and Ben Arfa as such, I think Pardew just wanted to change his tactics accordingly to compensate for the lack of natural CBs and starting Shola was one of his options to do this.

 

Hopefully we'll have Coloccini, Williamson and Tiote back next week and that could mean a return to the tactics we played for the 11 games or so. Really hope he now starts Santon at LB too.

[Interpolic]

Was so fucking poor from Pardew today, big concern when we're in a bad spot and he's hindering us with mental decisions all over the shop.

 

Was at the match and was fuming with him, why Ben Arfa didn't get on the pitch today I'll never know.

[Stu]

I'm not really sure when people think we should have brought Ben Arfa on.

 

Rightly or wrongly (this isn't being discussed), Pardew elected to go with 2 'big men' up top to try and hold the ball up, cause Norwich problems in the air and have a couple of taller bodies to defend set pieces ("LOL" [/hindsight]).

 

At half-time, we came in all square - under Pardew, we've almost always been better in the second half, once he's had a chance to give a few players new/adjusted instructions and got his reading of the game across to the group. So there's little chance he was going to change the game-plan, bearing in mind that we'd actually been defending reasonably well in open play and we looked the better team passing it around.

 

Second half, we go a goal down, after having a few chances (Ameobi into Ba being two of them) - within five minutes or so, we're two down and Gosling has been sent off. Realistically, we're not in a position to start passing the ball around as they're going to have the extra man to cover the gaps that we're trying to create. Our best bet is to get the ball down the wing and put some crosses in for the two big strikers to attack (with Cabaye picking up the pieces on the edge of the area).

 

Once Ba scores and it's 3-2....who do you bring off for Ben Arfa? Ameobi had a decent game and was creating chances for Ba throughout the second half, Pardew (for whatever reason) doesn't see Ben Arfa as a wide player (not that I agree with him). This is why Sameobi gets brought on for the flailing Obertan (too late IMO).

 

When should Pards have brought Ben Arfa on and for who?

 

It's alright everyone having a moan because the "most electrifying man in sports direct entertainment" didn't get onto the pitch (and we lost the game) but I'm struggling to see how he would have fit.

[Disco]

Obertan because IMO Pardew has called it wrong on HBA and he should have been on from the start, if not at HT. No issue with Ba and the big man (personally I'd pick Best over Shola mind) upfront.

[alexf]

Stu I think your missing the point. By half time everybody was calling for obertan to be replaced by ben arfa or atleast sammy but it took till the 80th minute for him to do that. Yes we all know Pardew is stubborn in not putting ben arfa out wide but it wasnt like obertan was doing any defending and the game was very open at that point and many feel it was ideal for Ben Arfa to come on and run at people in space.

[Interpolic]

Obertan because IMO Pardew has called it wrong on HBA and he should have been on from the start, if not at HT. No issue with Ba and the big man (personally I'd pick Best over Shola mind) upfront.

 

This.  Have HBA on the pitch ffs, infuriating that he didn't get the chance to test more limited opposition today.  Just perplexed that he got no minutes today.

[Stu]

Obertan because IMO Pardew has called it wrong on HBA.

 

Well, he wasn't going to change his mind during a half of football. Has there been a massive hoo-ha about Pardew's original comments? IIRC, most were in favour of Pardew seeing him as a forward and not wanting him put out on the wing; granted, I expect most people thought Pardew would be somewhat flexible if needs must (and today, Obertan definitely 'must').

 

Some numpty in the match thread was banging on about taking Obertan and Ryan Taylor off and putting Best and Ben Arfa on, what world do they live in where LB - RB - RB has even half a chance when you've got two out and out strikers on the pitch with a 'number 10' drifting around behind them?

[Stu]

Stu I think your missing the point. By half time everybody was calling for obertan to be replaced by ben arfa or atleast sammy but it took till the 80th minute for him to do that. Yes we all know Pardew is stubborn in not putting ben arfa out wide but it wasnt like obertan was doing any defending and the game was very open at that point and many feel it was ideal for Ben Arfa to come on and run at people in space.

 

...but if Pards (for whatever reason) only wants to play Ben Arfa as part of the front two (or three, when we have 11 players)...who does he bring him on for? If there's no-one who he can reasonably bring him off for, you can't be confused about why he didn't come on

 

Obertan was supposedly playing RW, so he was never going to bring him off for Ben Arfa. I agree that the Samoebi sub should have been made much earlier on, maybe after that counter-attack when Obertan decided to stop running forward despite having four or five B+W shirts racing up the pitch to help him

[Disco]

Obertan because IMO Pardew has called it wrong on HBA.

 

Well, he wasn't going to change his mind during a half of football. Has there been a massive hoo-ha about Pardew's original comments? IIRC, most were in favour of Pardew seeing him as a forward and not wanting him put out on the wing; granted, I expect most people thought Pardew would be somewhat flexible if needs must (and today, Obertan definitely 'must').

 

Some numpty in the match thread was banging on about taking Obertan and Ryan Taylor off and putting Best and Ben Arfa on, what world do they live in where LB - RB - RB has even half a chance when you've got two out and out strikers on the pitch with a 'number 10' drifting around behind them?

 

True and it's a complete blind spot, but I worry what are the coaching staff saying, surely they can see this? HBA has played wide his whole career.

 

I possibly agreed pre-season I can't remember but this new expectation by fans (on here) and manager of a player who hasn't played 10 before to suddenly come back from injury in a new league and shine in a new position to be able to perform there surely needs reflection. Especially when Ba is banging in goals playing along side a big man and HBA is our most natural creative player (IMO). It seems unnecessarily stubborn and almost classic English syndrome of where we can't trust the creative player because he doesn't run around like a blue-arsed fly.

 

And I say this who loves a lazy, archetypal type player.

[alexf]

My confusion comes from Pardew's reluctance more than anything. Just don't see why he can't play the juan mata type role where he is still like a number 10 but starts from a wide position and drifts. Pretty much how he has played his whole career until he came here.

[Stu]

My confusion comes from Pardew's reluctance more than anything. Just don't see why he can't play the juan mata type role where he is still like a number 10 but starts from a wide position and drifts. Pretty much how he has played his whole career until he came here.

 

Good idea just don't think that's in Pards' way of thinking at the moment, if only because you need to have a confident, settled, capable full back who can run up and down for 90minutes. With the big disruption in defence, I just don't think Pards trusts Ben Arfa to work hard closing down up front (which is ironic, given his support for Obertan) when we don't have our 'spine'.

 

Ben Arfa might be a victim of us having our 3 best defensive players out injured: Colocinni, Taylor, Tiote. Maybe he's seen as a luxury we just can't afford at the moment?

 

EDIT: on that note, how many games was Ben Arfa fit (and in the team/on the bench) with Tiote fit?

[Disco]

My confusion comes from Pardew's reluctance more than anything. Just don't see why he can't play the juan mata type role where he is still like a number 10 but starts from a wide position and drifts. Pretty much how he has played his whole career until he came here.

 

Bingo. I know I (and Ronny) have been advocating this for months.

 

As Stu and many others have alluded to the workrate can surely not be an issue unless Pardew and the rest of the staff are seeing something I'm missing in Obertan. Especially even given HBA short periods in the team he has created more chances than Obertan. (2x MC, 1x MU at least)

[alexf]

Not sure but he has only started after he got injured. I'd still like to see a cabaye tiote ben arfa triangle purely because on paper it looks awesome

[Conjo]

My confusion comes from Pardew's reluctance more than anything. Just don't see why he can't play the juan mata type role where he is still like a number 10 but starts from a wide position and drifts. Pretty much how he has played his whole career until he came here.

 

Good idea just don't think that's in Pards' way of thinking at the moment, if only because you need to have a confident, settled, capable full back who can run up and down for 90minutes. With the big disruption in defence, I just don't think Pards trusts Ben Arfa to work hard closing down up front (which is ironic, given his support for Obertan) when we don't have our 'spine'.

 

Ben Arfa might be a victim of us having our 3 best defensive players out injured: Colocinni, Taylor, Tiote. Maybe he's seen as a luxury we just can't afford at the moment?

 

EDIT: on that note, how many games was Ben Arfa fit (and in the team/on the bench) with Tiote fit?

 

There is a massive difference when you defend Pardew based on his beliefs compared to what he SHOULD do. OK, there wasn´t anyone he should put on IF Ben Arfa weren´t able to play on the right wing, but when the fact is that Ben Arfa COULD play on the right, your arguements does not have any legs to stand on, IMO. I know you kind of agree based on your recent posts, but why post your intial thoughts then?

[Dr Venkman]

Realistically, we're not in a position to start passing the ball around as they're going to have the extra man to cover the gaps that we're trying to create. Our best bet is to get the ball down the wing and put some crosses in for the two big strikers to attack

 

I doubt the sanity of anyone who thinks this is our best bet at any point in any game with Jonas and Obertan on the wings.

[Stu]

Realistically, we're not in a position to start passing the ball around as they're going to have the extra man to cover the gaps that we're trying to create. Our best bet is to get the ball down the wing and put some crosses in for the two big strikers to attack

 

I doubt the sanity of anyone who thinks this is our best bet at any point in any game with Jonas and Obertan on the wings.

 

Jonas can cross a ball, when he gets forward - he's done it  a lot more this season - not so much Obertan, would rather have Sameobi there instead, at least he showed a willingness to try and get the ball into the box (vs Citeh).

 

What are the (realistic) alternatives at that point in the game?

[Stu]

My confusion comes from Pardew's reluctance more than anything. Just don't see why he can't play the juan mata type role where he is still like a number 10 but starts from a wide position and drifts. Pretty much how he has played his whole career until he came here.

 

Good idea just don't think that's in Pards' way of thinking at the moment, if only because you need to have a confident, settled, capable full back who can run up and down for 90minutes. With the big disruption in defence, I just don't think Pards trusts Ben Arfa to work hard closing down up front (which is ironic, given his support for Obertan) when we don't have our 'spine'.

 

Ben Arfa might be a victim of us having our 3 best defensive players out injured: Colocinni, Taylor, Tiote. Maybe he's seen as a luxury we just can't afford at the moment?

 

EDIT: on that note, how many games was Ben Arfa fit (and in the team/on the bench) with Tiote fit?

 

There is a massive difference when you defend Pardew based on his beliefs compared to what he SHOULD do. OK, there wasn´t anyone he should put on IF Ben Arfa weren´t able to play on the right wing, but when the fact is that Ben Arfa COULD play on the right, your arguements does not have any legs to stand on, IMO. I know you kind of agree based on your recent posts, but why post your intial thoughts then?

 

Well there are two points of contention:

 

1) Why doesn't Pardew bring on Ben Arfa for Obertan/play Ben Arfa ahead of Obertan on the right wing?

 

2) Why doesn't Pardew believe/trust Ben Arfa can play on the wing?

 

If you accept the second point, even if you don't agree with it, going into yesterday's game then I struggle to see why people are so outraged/confused about the first point.

 

I hadn't really challenged Pards view of HBA beforehand: the team hadn't lost to a non-title challenging team (and even then, hadn't looked out of their depth in any of those three games); I prefer the idea of HBA being further up the pitch to inflict damage on the opposition and not restricted to one wing*

 

So, when Obertan was toiling dismally, I wasn't shocked to see Ben Arfa sat on the bench - nor did I want him to sacrifice Shola or Ba for him, as they were both doing a good job. If Gosling hadn't been sent off, I would have chosen to sacrifice him for HBA as the 'number 10' with Cabaye dropping off in front of the back four as cover.

 

If you didn't accept the second point going into yesterday's game - did you question this beforehand? Or were you also happy to trust Pards' judgement when we weren't losing? Seems to be a whiff of hindsight harry mixed in with posters' disappointment with the result/performance.

 

*As Disco posted last night, there's scope for him to be played "on the left" in a Mata type role, where he's allowed to drift. First question is what do we do with Jonas?