Alan Pardew

[Neil]

HawK, that's insanely negative man. We've made some good progress since relegation, making the right signings and signing existing players to long contracts, our best league position for ages, and you post something like that? Way over the top IMO.

 

I agree Ashley might never hire a manager who would challenge him, but that's just something we have to deal with and all the more reason to back Pardew.

I think some of these people forget that we were sitting a league below in dire straits only two years ago and were sitting in the bottom half when the man took the helm. They forget that he had to sell his most high profile player two or three weeks into his career here. Anything above seventh for this club, is a great result and it is ridiculous to act like Pardew had no part in this. I am not a supporter of some of the negative football he has employed, but at the same time, he completely changed the formation earlier in the season to give Ben Arfa room to operate. I think he is learning and adjusting and it is good to give him time in which to do so.

 

As this is a thread on Pardew, I won't go into the fact that our progress in no circumstances whatsoever should be measured by how far we've come since we got promoted back. It should be measured from when MA took over, almost 5 years ago in May 2007. Our progress under Pardew is better than Hughton, that I won't argue with, less romantic performances and results but a more pragmatic and effective way to grind out results. But the evidence on the pitch in the previous few months shows a manager who doesn't grasp the fundamentals, today a prime example.

 

At the end of the day, if you were to compare our players, man to man, with the best of the PL, we should and would be up there. The only reason we're not is due to the manager. One thing's for sure as far as I'm concerned, if Bobby were here, Hatem would have played the full 90 minutes of every single game he's been fit and available for. He's meeting Ashley's criteria, so he's safe for now. But there's no reason to accept where we are, we should be aiming for better with what we have. Whether there is a manager available to do this right now, is another question entirely. It doesn't mean I don't have the right to pass opinion on the fact that Pardew is clearly out of his depth at this level.

 

At the end of the day, what the hell are you smoking?

 

 

You are quite daft if you do not think players like Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa, Cisse, Ba, Coloccini and Krul wouldn't be pushing for starting births for most of the top 4-5 clubs in the country, bar City. To argue that every player has to be of this class, is pedantic. You could pick apart any of those sides for weaknesses in certain positions. The point I was making, is with players of this ilk, a better manager than Pardew would be achieving more, because it's not for want of a better starting XI.

 

Your general point about you potentially doing better with someone other than Pardew is fair enough and seems to be the main issue on this board at the moment. However, IMO you're overestimating the quality of your squad. Coloccini is a class act and would get into pretty much every starting line up in the league. The rest, to varying degrees, wouldn't. You've every right to say you have some quality players but you're getting ahead of yourself in my view. You're using a very harsh stick to beat Pardew with by stating/implying most of your first team players would be of top 4 quality.

 

Cabaye and Tiote for example, when I see them, I see good players but not to the extent to which I've read them being previously praised on here.

[Incognito]

I think the only thing both Cabaye and Tiote need to make them both real quality players is consistency.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think we've got a bit over excited because we've got some genuinely good players for the first time in ages. It doesn't necessarily follow that we have a top 5 or 6 team yet though. Certainly not that we should expect that as our rightful place.

[Dr Venkman]

What about a team playing to something near it's potential? Or looking like we might be moving towards it? Again, next season will be the real judge of whether Pardew's ever gonna do it but there's alarm bells ringing for me and they're getting louder every week.

[GuyP]

i thought the game couldnt get any better, til i just heard snippets of his interview after proclaiming Shola a legend...thank you Pards

[HawK]

HawK, that's insanely negative man. We've made some good progress since relegation, making the right signings and signing existing players to long contracts, our best league position for ages, and you post something like that? Way over the top IMO.

 

I agree Ashley might never hire a manager who would challenge him, but that's just something we have to deal with and all the more reason to back Pardew.

I think some of these people forget that we were sitting a league below in dire straits only two years ago and were sitting in the bottom half when the man took the helm. They forget that he had to sell his most high profile player two or three weeks into his career here. Anything above seventh for this club, is a great result and it is ridiculous to act like Pardew had no part in this. I am not a supporter of some of the negative football he has employed, but at the same time, he completely changed the formation earlier in the season to give Ben Arfa room to operate. I think he is learning and adjusting and it is good to give him time in which to do so.

 

As this is a thread on Pardew, I won't go into the fact that our progress in no circumstances whatsoever should be measured by how far we've come since we got promoted back. It should be measured from when MA took over, almost 5 years ago in May 2007. Our progress under Pardew is better than Hughton, that I won't argue with, less romantic performances and results but a more pragmatic and effective way to grind out results. But the evidence on the pitch in the previous few months shows a manager who doesn't grasp the fundamentals, today a prime example.

 

At the end of the day, if you were to compare our players, man to man, with the best of the PL, we should and would be up there. The only reason we're not is due to the manager. One thing's for sure as far as I'm concerned, if Bobby were here, Hatem would have played the full 90 minutes of every single game he's been fit and available for. He's meeting Ashley's criteria, so he's safe for now. But there's no reason to accept where we are, we should be aiming for better with what we have. Whether there is a manager available to do this right now, is another question entirely. It doesn't mean I don't have the right to pass opinion on the fact that Pardew is clearly out of his depth at this level.

 

At the end of the day, what the hell are you smoking?

 

 

You are quite daft if you do not think players like Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa, Cisse, Ba, Coloccini and Krul wouldn't be pushing for starting births for most of the top 4-5 clubs in the country, bar City. To argue that every player has to be of this class, is pedantic. You could pick apart any of those sides for weaknesses in certain positions. The point I was making, is with players of this ilk, a better manager than Pardew would be achieving more, because it's not for want of a better starting XI.

 

Your general point about you potentially doing better with someone other than Pardew is fair enough and seems to be the main issue on this board at the moment. However, IMO you're overestimating the quality of your squad. Coloccini is a class act and would get into pretty much every starting line up in the league. The rest, to varying degrees, wouldn't. You've every right to say you have some quality players but you're getting ahead of yourself in my view. You're using a very harsh stick to beat Pardew with by stating/implying most of your first team players would be of top 4 quality.

 

Cabaye and Tiote for example, when I see them, I see good players but not to the extent to which I've read them being previously praised on here.

 

That's a fair point, but I do think, given how Cabaye is starting in the middle for France ahead of some absolute quality players should indicate that something isn't right with his club form. The same could be said of Tiote - I think they would both look twice the player they are in a system that keeps the ball on the deck from keeper to midfield. Of course as a supporter my glasses are slightly tinted, I won't argue against that. It's like the Allardyce saga all over again, except this time we actually have a damn good starting XI, the best since Sir Bobby in my opinion, and it's so frustrating.

 

Keegan had a lot less than what Pardew has now, and a few seasons ago against a stronger Man United side at the beginning of the season before he went, we bossed them at Old Trafford. We were playing good football and I'm pretty sure the whole forum was united in the hope that we were going on to better things. Whereas at the moment, I'm scratching my head to think how long it's going to take until we're found out with our constant route 1 football with strikers who can't win a header or hold off a challenge. For his ability to drill the defence and be tight, with the right people, it's frustrating he can't get the basics with the other 6 players on the field. How quickly did it take for Keegan to come in and switch to a 4-3-3 with Owen, Viduka and Martins? We all thought about this on the forum, but to actually have a manager to have the confidence and balls to carry it out came as a shock after the recent procession of managers. I don't think Pardew has the capability of taking the risks and thus earning rewards that come with them. I'm using Keegan as an example as he was able to revitalize a stagnant squad, but the same could have been said of Sir Bobby.

 

For me it all boils down to this; should I be satisfied with where we are, knowing that with a better manager we could be doing better? Or should I be satisfied that we could be in a worse position if our manager wasn't as strong as Pardew. Either way, I am satisfied that we are at least up there challenging around 6th place, but this form has been less about the manager, and more about Demba Ba's incredible form. It reminds me a great deal of Roeder's first half-season in charge where we fluked our way to 7th, and no-one had a clue how we were winning because the football was shocking, and Ameobi was scoring the goals. Lo and behold, over time, this ideology failed because eventually the results caught up with the performances and the strength of the first XI and he had to go. I believe for the same reason, due the lack of progressive and adaptive football, we have already reached our ceiling. A false ceiling with the infrastructure and players that we have.

 

I'd rate Pardew alongside Roeder in quite a few ways, seemingly able when there's limited options and where the team would pick itself, but with the full strength of the squad, unable to make the big decisions that could ultimately take us to the next level by getting the best out of the squad. One of the official reasons cited for his departure from Southampton, was the board's annoyance that they felt Pardew was unable to work with a squad of players outside the first XI. It's easy to get romanticized towards the man, with his great interviews, good newspaper quotes and so forth, probably the best of our managers in many a year in this regard, and our league position. Historically for us, with a good manager in the PL, we've been a top 4 club both times.

 

Perhaps I am less easily pleased than others - not that this is necessarily a good thing, I'd rather be happy than sad! - but since Keegan's original departure, there have been so many false-dawns that it's becoming easier and easier to see the signs of a management style that will either develop and progress our squad and club, and one that doesn't. Only Bobby's shown us what we are capable of, as a club with our fanbase, crowds, history and revenue since Keegan left. Pardew's just not of the quality that this club should be aiming to recruit for his position. We won't ever go beyond this if Mike Ashley continues to run the club how he does, that's why I'm so sad right now, because no manager capable of what the previous 2 legends have done, would work for us under Mike Ashley, for all the good things he's done recently.

 

That said, am I happy now, as a Newcastle United supporter from the age of 6 and now 28 with our direction? Maybe, if I've had my expectations so horribly shattered in the past 5 years that to be aiming just for a top 6 or 7 finish should be seen as a success. But Mike Ashley still hasn't broken me, and now that we've got the players and a system behind the squad geared for success, I won't be happy until he decides to let go and give control to a man that can bring back the good times to SJP. Until then, I'll just be as apathetic as ever.

[Ronaldo]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

[HawK]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

 

Disappointed, expected much better from you.

[Yorkie]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

 

I'll bite cos i love biting.

 

We lost once with that formation, and that was against Chelsea with Smith in the side. It's still some of the best football i've seen us play. We won four and drew a couple iirc.

[TheGuv]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

 

 

The difference in squad is unbelievable. Even last seaosn Pardew had a better squad, had more games, took over with the club higher in the table than Keegan did and managed to finish 12th...

 

I'm not sure you've even read the whole post, yet you jump to your own wonderful conclusions all the time.

 

You really are the most obnoxious poster on this forum. You're 3 awards really were deserved. Bravo

[Jayson]

Hawk most of that post is just you saying you relate Pardew with Roeder, we could obviously be doing better & that Keegan went for more flair with his lineup.

 

You havent actually offered many examples of how we could have improved on this season. Beyond doubting Cabayes form because hes infront of good players for France, when hes there because of his form in France & International football is not the same as someones first season in the Prem.

 

Keegan played a more attacking system yeah & you know doing that currently would result in better results for us how? FWIW Keegan said just yesterday that Pardew was having a great season & was getting the best out of his players.

[Guest BooBoo]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

 

What teams did we beat with the much trumpeted formation? Fulham, Spurs, mackems and Reading. Good run of form yes but it's ludicrously over hyped with the benefit of the rosiest tinted glasses.

[Hughesy]

Hawk most of that post is just you saying you relate Pardew with Roeder, we could obviously be doing better & that Keegan went for more flair with his lineup.

 

You havent actually offered many examples of how we could have improved on this season. Beyond doubting Cabayes form because hes infront of good players for France, when hes there because of his form in France & International football is not the same as someones first season in the Prem.

 

Keegan played a more attacking system yeah & you know doing that currently would result in better results for us how? FWIW Keegan said just yesterday that Pardew was having a great season & was getting the best out of his players.

 

That's one of the key points.  People keep assuming that by playing a more defensive system Pardew has somehow cost us points.  How do we not know that Pardew's caution has not won points during this season?

[Ronaldo]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

 

What teams did we beat with the much trumpeted formation? Fulham, Spurs, mackems and Reading. Good run of form yes but it's ludicrously over hyped with the benefit of the rosiest tinted glasses.

 

Exactly. We beat 3 poor teams at home and an average one (Spurs finished 11th, I think) away.

[Ronaldo]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

 

 

The difference in squad is unbelievable. Even last seaosn Pardew had a better squad, had more games, took over with the club higher in the table than Keegan did and managed to finish 12th...

 

Hang on. Pardew took over when we were 12th; where were we when Keegan took over?

[cp40]

Keegan and his 4-3-3 mentioned again? We finished 12th that season.

 

 

The difference in squad is unbelievable. Even last seaosn Pardew had a better squad, had more games, took over with the club higher in the table than Keegan did and managed to finish 12th...

 

Hang on. Pardew took over when we were 12th; where were we when Keegan took over?

 

 

one place above relegation to the thrid division IIrc. in straight seasons he took us to 3rd in the prem. canny going that like.

[Ronaldo]

Relevant.

[Numbers]

Time this fucker started thinking what damage we can do to teams instead of worrying what they can do to us.

 

Attack is the best form of defence.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

For me it boils down to this - we are sixth playing god awful football. What position could we achieve playing better football? Given the quality of our footballers It would be no stretch of the imagination at all to claim we could do much better.

 

I'd rate Pardew in the same bracket as Roeder, Big Sam and Souness. What Pardew has in his facour over those guys is that he doesn't antagonise players, the media or fans which the others, especially Allardyce and Souness, both did. The football is equally as poor as anything they served up though. Unlike that lot, however, he has a very good side at his disposal especially down the spine.

 

He has also benefitted from lowered expectations (at the start), fewer injuries and a weaker league around us. That and the full backing of the board too and the general support from the stands.

 

Tactically he is as clueless as the others and like Big Sam, sets his team-up to contain and not lose. Like Big Sam he also tries weird set-ups and odd selections. For example Barton on the left away to Stevenage. For me, playing for a draw away to Derby is the same as playing for a draw away to Brighton.

 

Being sixth, enjoying the talents of Ba, Colo, Krul, Tiote et al and that impressive start we had, has allowed Pardew's many failures to be almost hidden away or for my own money, forgiven and masked over, by many fans. But the more we under perform (Wolves and the mackems in two consecutive home games), the heavier the defeats (Fulham and Spurs away) and the more we drop points (all of those games for example) Pardew's tactics, team-selections, set-up, substitutions and our football in general, will come under more scrutiny and criticism.

 

If you were to analyse even a small sample of the overall larger poor performances, even those with "we are sixth", "look where we were 2 seasons ago" rose tinted glasses on, would summise that these poor performances are simply unnacceptable, if even for one because they are so damned avoidable.

 

If we carry on with this innane long ball tactics and continue to pick the likes of Ryan Taylor ahead of Ben Arfa, we will drop more points than we pick up and will keep performing in a way that will see the likes of Ba, Cisse and Cabye especially, struggle to prosper. Meanwhile, because we are not dominating in the middle and keeping possession, that rather decent back-four of ours will come under more pressure and concede even more goals. And we will slide down that table as quick as we climbed it.

 

Pardew needs to change his ways or we need to change our manager. Me, I'd say thank you Alan in the summer and look to upgrade him. Personally, I'd look at Martin Jol at Fulham who is used to working in a structure that scouts and identifies players for the manager. Someone with European and Premier League experience and someone who gets his teams playing football, performing to a good level and generally achieving either within their means or above as he is showing at Fulham and did at Spurs, setting the green light for Harry to GO GO GO.

 

If we continue to play like we do, I can see our better players becoming royally p*ssed off. Ba and Cisse looked forlorn figures at the weekend and Cabaye and Tiote were frustrated figures likewise. Even Colo looked uneasy simply lumping it long. I doubt Krul likes kicking it aimlessley forward too. Players will do what they are told if it brings results but when things stop working and results stop coming, players are no fools and will start questioning the tactics and instructions of their manager and coaches.

 

We play best when we go after sides and play with freedom. Of course we need to balance wanton abandon with some form of direction and plan but not this long ball up and at em game. It does us no favours and only benefits the opposition as id did Wolves and sunderland and others before them. After the break yesterday, we dominated and basically penned them in and could have, on another day with a better final ball and finishing, battered them. We have that in us, but with these negative tactics, containment plans and hoof ball football, we are struggling and will not achieve potentially what we can. We can play better and do better and must. If Pardew cannot manage this, bring in someone who can.

[Dr Venkman]

Hawk most of that post is just you saying you relate Pardew with Roeder, we could obviously be doing better & that Keegan went for more flair with his lineup.

 

You havent actually offered many examples of how we could have improved on this season. Beyond doubting Cabayes form because hes infront of good players for France, when hes there because of his form in France & International football is not the same as someones first season in the Prem.

 

Keegan played a more attacking system yeah & you know doing that currently would result in better results for us how? FWIW Keegan said just yesterday that Pardew was having a great season & was getting the best out of his players.

 

That's one of the key points.  People keep assuming that by playing a more defensive system Pardew has somehow cost us points.  How do we not know that Pardew's caution has not won points during this season?

 

You make a good point, however I'd add that good management is about knowing when to adopt certain strategies, not deciding on one and sticking to it stubbornly whether it works or not. We've had our fair share of managers who've done that here recently so a lot of people are wise to the pit falls, good league position or not.

 

At home to Wolves, Swansea, QPR for example, you play your best attacking players and have a go. So whilst I'd say Pardew's defensive approach has certainly won us points this season, the points away at QPR, Man U and Blackburn particularly, where the defensively minded drilled capabilities of our team helped us grind out results, i think he's cost us just as many points if not more by being too cautious.

[Ronaldo]

For me it boils down to this - we are sixth playing god awful football. What position could we achieve playing better football? Given the quality of our footballers It would be no stretch of the imagination at all to claim we could do much better.

 

Which footballers? We have a keeper who doesn't distribute the ball well, a CB who can barely be idenitfied as a footballer, a full back who falls into the same category, a winger who seldom creates, and a CM that sit deep and don't penetrate - even when we do keep the ball down.

 

These are all players (6 in total) who are absolutely guaranteed a start, btw, and through no fault of Pardew. Stop implying we have this wonderful footballing side who've been restricted to 3rd - 7th all season by negative tactics.

[Hughesy]

Hawk most of that post is just you saying you relate Pardew with Roeder, we could obviously be doing better & that Keegan went for more flair with his lineup.

 

You havent actually offered many examples of how we could have improved on this season. Beyond doubting Cabayes form because hes infront of good players for France, when hes there because of his form in France & International football is not the same as someones first season in the Prem.

 

Keegan played a more attacking system yeah & you know doing that currently would result in better results for us how? FWIW Keegan said just yesterday that Pardew was having a great season & was getting the best out of his players.

 

That's one of the key points.  People keep assuming that by playing a more defensive system Pardew has somehow cost us points.  How do we not know that Pardew's caution has not won points during this season?

 

You make a good point, however I'd add that good management is about knowing when to adopt certain strategies, not deciding on one and sticking to it stubbornly whether it works or not. We've had our fair share of managers who've done that here recently so a lot of people are wise to the pit falls, good league position or not.

 

At home to Wolves, Swansea, QPR for example, you play your best attacking players and have a go. So whilst I'd say Pardew's defensive approach has certainly won us points this season, the points away at QPR, Man U and Blackburn particularly, where the defensively minded drilled capabilities of our team helped us grind out results, i think he's cost us just as many points if not more by being too cautious.

 

Totally agree with you.  Was just trying present the other side of the coin.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

For me it boils down to this - we are sixth playing god awful football. What position could we achieve playing better football? Given the quality of our footballers It would be no stretch of the imagination at all to claim we could do much better.

 

Which footballers? We have a keeper who doesn't distribute the ball well, a CB who can barely be idenitfied as a footballer, a full back who falls into the same category, a winger who seldom creates, and a CM that sit deep and don't penetrate - even when we do keep the ball down.

 

These are all player who are absolutely guaranteed a start, btw, and through no fault of Pardew. Stop implying we have this wonderful footballing side who've been restricted to 3rd - 7th all season by negative tactics.

 

Krul's distribution will be poor when he is instructed to simply punt it forwards. That's down to Pardew as is the fact our CM's sit too deep. This was in evidence yesterday. When Shola came on he went straight to Tiote and then Cabaye with instructions. The result... Tiote dropped deeper by 10-20 yards and Cabaye was shunted wider towards Jonas which left a huge gap in between our defence and attack and thus allowed ssunderland to come out with the ball into space when they won it back. If Tiote and Cabaye had of been further forward and not so deep or so wide, when sunderland came away with the ball, they would have ran into those two and for us, on the ball we would have had something in the middle. Such clueless tactics from the manager.

 

Sinton isn't the best full-back in the world but he's the least of our problems and even then, playing Ryan Taylor in front of him or Obertan instead of Ben Arfa, one of our best players, is stupid and has shown to be a negative move.

 

Again I'll highlight just how tactically inept your man is. He selects Ryan Taylor wide right to help protect Simposn ahead of Ben Arfa, Fair enough, but Pardew is also worried about the centre so he instructs Taylor to play more narrow, more closer to Cabaye and Tiote than closer to the flank. The result? Simposn had no-one to play the ball to wide right or had any chances to overlap. defensively, because taylor was often in the centre or closer to there, sunderland could get at Simpson.

 

So defensively and attacking wise, this was a poor move. Ben Arfa's introduction pinned back the sunderland flank and allowed Simposn to actually move up the pitch himself. As a result the mackems attacke our flank less and we attacked theirs more, Simposn actually linking up well with Ben Arfa and even putting in two decent crosses.

 

Best form of defence is always attack.

 

As for Jonas, I assume that's who you are refering to. He may not be high on the goals scored or goals created chart but he is our only real outlet and as such, is a key player for us. He drove and drove at the mackems and caused them all kinds of problems. he creates a lot for us in terms of not so much direct goalscoring opportunities or goals scored but with his running which pins players back, opens up space and generally drags our sorry arses massively up the pitch. Again, if you're in the opposition half they are not in yours meaning they cannot score.

 

We have excellent players. We have arguably the best performing 'keeper in the league, certainly the one with the most promise. In Colo we have one of the best centre-backs who would walk into all but perhaps Man City's defence. Santon is a very good attacking full-back with huge potential. Cabaye and Tiote are really good players, easily a top 6 pairing where as Ben Arfa has all the ability in the world. Jonas is a very good outlet and Ba and Cisse are both goalscorers and in Ba's case, a top all-round centre-forward.

 

Further into the squad we have good youngsters in Ferguson, Sammy Ameobi, Abied etc. and in Guthrie, Williamson, Best and Shola, adequate back-up.

 

In short we have a very good first-time and a decent enough squad. Much better than say Villa, Spurs, Everton, Stoke, Fulham, Swansea, Norwich et al.

 

This is the best side we've had since Sir Bobby and indeed the best squad.

 

The fact a player of Ben Arfa's ability cannot get in ahead of the likes of Ryan Taylor is criminal and akin to starting Shola ahead of Ba or Williamson ahead of Colo.

 

The fact our midfield is constantly being bypassed by the long ball is also criminal as is the how deep we sit and how far the gap is between midfield and attack.

 

That's Pardew's tactics for you though, an area where he's as clueless as Roeder, Big Sam or Souness ever were.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Nothing Pardew has served up is remotely comparable to Allardyce, I wanted to kill myself when he was in charge.

[Ronaldo]

I wasn't talking about Santon. I think he's a very good footballer.