Leon Best

[Wullie]

Doing a laughable disservice to Ba to suggest that he needs another big bloke on the field to be able to lash in a HBA reverse pass, or whack a free kick into the top corner, or kill a lofted pass from Cabaye stone dead before sliding it under the goalkeeper. Have you heard yourselves? Or actually opened your eyes and watched him play? The bloke could play up top with me every week and still come away with a brace, he does not crave the aura of Leon Best.

[alpal78]

Doing a laughable disservice to Ba to suggest that he needs another big bloke on the field to be able to lash in a HBA reverse pass, or whack a free kick into the top corner, or kill a lofted pass from Cabaye stone dead before sliding it under the goalkeeper. Have you heard yourselves? Or actually opened your eyes and watched him play? The bloke could play up top with me every week and still come away with a brace, he does not crave the aura of Leon Best.

 

Spot on Wullie!

[Unbelievable]

Aye, even though Saylor is a no-nonsense defender he actually likes to move the ball on the floor, and takes responsibility for doing it too.

 

Aye, that's great when lovewillneverdie (TPFKA "White Cafu") does it at right back, but when he's charging through the middle of the pitch, he's leaving a massive gap behind him (our fullbacks are primarily pushing forward at home).

 

Anyways, back on topic, Best doesn't look match fit/sharp. However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

 

 

Is this based on anything more than a figment of your imagination?

 

Am I right in thinking the only time he has started a game with HBA behind him is Man City, Man U, Chelsea and Blackburn in the cup, when we rested quite a few players in our first XI?  Bit early to say whether he looks better with a 'unit' next to him or not I think, although in fairness he does like to drop deep to link the play.

 

He would look better up top on his own if we didn't insist on hoofing it long all the time and actually tried to play it on the deck.  He's not great with his back to goal trying to play the Heskey/Best role.

 

Football has long moved on from the requirement of needing a "big unit" to lead the line, even in England. I can really only think of Chelsea (Drogba) who have a dominating centre forward. Most if not all of the other top teams in England and around Europe now prefer pace and technique over brute force. Mostly this consists of pairing a goal scoring forward who moves around and uses technique to bring other players in to play as well as score goals themselves (Van Persie being a prime example) and an attacking midfielder just behind to spread the play and get into goalscoring positions too by attempting long shots and getting in the box late (the Rooney type). They have wingers to run at the defense with pace as soon as they capture the ball from the opposition and stick the ball in the danger area (mostly low as opposed to high crosses). In theory, we have all the ingredients to make such a system work. Ba would be our roaming forward, HBA (or Vuckic if he continues his progress) are perfect for the support role. We have two pacey wingers who need to be instructed to just run at pace when breaking and stick the ball in the box, and we have the holding midfielders in Tiote and Cabaye to control and build up the play.

 

I could understand our insistence on a powerhouse forward if we had a world class player of this ilk (like Chelsea do with Drogba), but we don't. We're effectively building our team and the way we play around two average, old fashioned forwards in Best and Ba. Pardew really needs to buck up his ideas if we want to be going places and use the squad we have to its real strengths.

[80]

Not so much a big unit as a goalscorer. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Bellamy was at the club. Best can regularly finish things off - even if he's better at some times than others, he's officially a strike threat within 20 yards of goal and playing his whole game in the last third. The same can't be said of Ben Arfa, Obertan, Vuckic etc. The idea of the 'no central striker' teams is to swarm the opposition with loads of genuine, if not complete, threats - a 'front 4 or 5'. Ba can't run onto a reverse pass so easily if there are two defenders dedicated to cutting them out at his end.

[Lush Vlad]

 

Am I right in thinking the only time he has started a game with HBA behind him is Man City, Man U, Chelsea and Blackburn in the cup, when we rested quite a few players in our first XI?  Bit early to say whether he looks better with a 'unit' next to him or not I think, although in fairness he does like to drop deep to link the play.

 

He would look better up top on his own if we didn't insist on hoofing it long all the time and actually tried to play it on the deck.  He's not great with his back to goal trying to play the Heskey/Best role.

 

I think that's a bit unfair, against Swansea he played well and got shots on target from crazy positions when he started with his back to goal.

 

My comment was more aimed at the fact he's far less effective up top when we just play long ball after long ball.  He doesn't actually win that many flick ons for his size and doesn't strike me as a Kev Davies/Emile Heskey type shithouse that thrive on hoof ball. 

 

I don't think he's happy to just back into the defender and make a nuisance of himself in the air, he's so much more than that and it isn't his game.  Someone eluded to it in the other thread, we're trying to play a Stoke'esque sort of game without having the players to do so.

 

Hope that clears it up.

[Fenham Mag]

Has he still not played a full 90 minutes in the Premier League for us?

[Ronaldo]

He has. Against Blackburn I think.

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

Wolves as well I think. Remember him puffing around as we tried to hold on.

[Ronaldo]

Doing a laughable disservice to Ba to suggest that he needs another big bloke on the field to be able to lash in a HBA reverse pass, or whack a free kick into the top corner, or kill a lofted pass from Cabaye stone dead before sliding it under the goalkeeper. Have you heard yourselves? Or actually opened your eyes and watched him play? The bloke could play up top with me every week and still come away with a brace, he does not crave the aura of Leon Best.

 

Then why did you advocate 4-4-2 with Hatem on the wing? He's a better player with someone up top with him than without, whoever it is.

 

And would you seriously play him as a lone striker given our midfield's (including Hatem) seriously underwhelming goal stats? Thought not. Pipe down.

[Lush Vlad]

He has. Against Blackburn I think.

 

In the cup he played 120 mins, not in the league against Blackburn.

[Ronaldo]

Once again, he played a full 90 minutes against Blackburn in the league.

[TaylorJ_01]

Aye, even though Saylor is a no-nonsense defender he actually likes to move the ball on the floor, and takes responsibility for doing it too.

 

Aye, that's great when lovewillneverdie (TPFKA "White Cafu") does it at right back, but when he's charging through the middle of the pitch, he's leaving a massive gap behind him (our fullbacks are primarily pushing forward at home).

 

Anyways, back on topic, Best doesn't look match fit/sharp. However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

 

 

I can't believe people are still peddling this rubbish

[Lush Vlad]

Once again, he played a full 90 minutes against Blackburn in the league.

 

Yeah for some reason I was thinking of Ba as my post to Mick was relating to Demba.  Best didn't even play against Blackburn in the cup.  D'oh!

[Guest neesy111]

Aye, even though Saylor is a no-nonsense defender he actually likes to move the ball on the floor, and takes responsibility for doing it too.

 

Aye, that's great when lovewillneverdie (TPFKA "White Cafu") does it at right back, but when he's charging through the middle of the pitch, he's leaving a massive gap behind him (our fullbacks are primarily pushing forward at home).

 

Anyways, back on topic, Best doesn't look match fit/sharp. However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

 

 

I can't believe people are still peddling this rubbish

 

It's Stu.  50% likely to be fishing.

[Sifu]

I don't mind Best though he should really learn the offside rule. It's getting beyond frustrating now seeing him standing in offside positions.

[TRon]

Not so much a big unit as a goalscorer. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Bellamy was at the club. Best can regularly finish things off - even if he's better at some times than others, he's officially a strike threat within 20 yards of goal and playing his whole game in the last third. The same can't be said of Ben Arfa, Obertan, Vuckic etc. The idea of the 'no central striker' teams is to swarm the opposition with loads of genuine, if not complete, threats - a 'front 4 or 5'. Ba can't run onto a reverse pass so easily if there are two defenders dedicated to cutting them out at his end.

 

Best isn't getting into goalscoring positions recently though. When he does, there tends to be a big gap between the midfield and attack which isn't so much of a problem when Ben Arfa plays IMO. While HBA's been guilty of running into trouble a few times this season I still prefer the look of our team with him in it.

[alpal78]

Doing a laughable disservice to Ba to suggest that he needs another big bloke on the field to be able to lash in a HBA reverse pass, or whack a free kick into the top corner, or kill a lofted pass from Cabaye stone dead before sliding it under the goalkeeper. Have you heard yourselves? Or actually opened your eyes and watched him play? The bloke could play up top with me every week and still come away with a brace, he does not crave the aura of Leon Best.

 

Then why did you advocate 4-4-2 with Hatem on the wing? He's a better player with someone up top with him than without, whoever it is.

 

And would you seriously play him as a lone striker given our midfield's (including Hatem) seriously underwhelming goal stats? Thought not. Pipe down.

 

So you notice that our midfield (including Hatem) has seriously underwhelming goal stats. And what about Best's stats? When was his last goal and assist?  The argument that he helps Ba play better is bollocks coz we drew a blank against Swansea and against West Brom, Ba's field goal was from a HBA reverse pass. Best did not help Ba score against Swansea and did not help him with either of his goals against West Brom. 

[80]

Not so much a big unit as a goalscorer. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Bellamy was at the club. Best can regularly finish things off - even if he's better at some times than others, he's officially a strike threat within 20 yards of goal and playing his whole game in the last third. The same can't be said of Ben Arfa, Obertan, Vuckic etc. The idea of the 'no central striker' teams is to swarm the opposition with loads of genuine, if not complete, threats - a 'front 4 or 5'. Ba can't run onto a reverse pass so easily if there are two defenders dedicated to cutting them out at his end.

 

Best isn't getting into goalscoring positions recently though. When he does, there tends to be a big gap between the midfield and attack which isn't so much of a problem when Ben Arfa plays IMO. While HBA's been guilty of running into trouble a few times this season I still prefer the look of our team with him in it.

 

I know, but from the opposition's perspective, they still have to think about him in a way they might choose not to think about Gutierrez. Form is temporary, class (and he has at least some) is permanent. A bit like how a team would play a deeper defensive line against us in 2004 if we had Bellamy and his pace on the pitch as well as just Shearer, giving Shearer much more space and time to operate in. New potential threat, new defensive measures adopted, new offensive opportunities to exploit.

 

Fwiw, I'd absolutely have HBA on the pitch as well as Best and Ba. They're not exclusive options apart, seemingly, from inside Pardew's head.

[Stu]

Not so much a big unit as a goalscorer. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Bellamy was at the club. Best can regularly finish things off - even if he's better at some times than others, he's officially a strike threat within 20 yards of goal and playing his whole game in the last third. The same can't be said of Ben Arfa, Obertan, Vuckic etc. The idea of the 'no central striker' teams is to swarm the opposition with loads of genuine, if not complete, threats - a 'front 4 or 5'. Ba can't run onto a reverse pass so easily if there are two defenders dedicated to cutting them out at his end.

 

Not sure what Wullie and Unbelievable are on about

[Mick]

 

 

I know, but from the opposition's perspective, they still have to think about him in a way they might choose not to think about Gutierrez. Form is temporary, class (and he has at least some) is permanent. A bit like how a team would play a deeper defensive line against us in 2004 if we had Bellamy and his pace on the pitch as well as just Shearer, giving Shearer much more space and time to operate in. New potential threat, new defensive measures adopted, new offensive opportunities to exploit.

 

Fwiw, I'd absolutely have HBA on the pitch as well as Best and Ba. They're not exclusive options apart, seemingly, from inside Pardew's head.

 

Best has done nothing to justify starting and everything to justify being dropped.

[Jayson]

I think playing best encourages possession slightly, as we're more likely to make it stick upfront.

 

But we've seen in the last couple games its provided little penetration of defences as our wingers cannot cross it adequately. The one time we got through was vuckics through ball to Ba, it was all infront of them bar that. Similarly at Swansea unless Ba produced individual magic.

 

Ben Arfa is the type that can jink his way through instead. We'll probably keep it less, but be more dangerous on the attack as West brom were to us.

[80]

 

 

I know, but from the opposition's perspective, they still have to think about him in a way they might choose not to think about Gutierrez. Form is temporary, class (and he has at least some) is permanent. A bit like how a team would play a deeper defensive line against us in 2004 if we had Bellamy and his pace on the pitch as well as just Shearer, giving Shearer much more space and time to operate in. New potential threat, new defensive measures adopted, new offensive opportunities to exploit.

 

Fwiw, I'd absolutely have HBA on the pitch as well as Best and Ba. They're not exclusive options apart, seemingly, from inside Pardew's head.

 

Best has done nothing to justify starting and everything to justify being dropped.

 

Shy of a genuine 3 up front tactic (not some 451, 4321 thing), the only other option is Shola, in my mind. Otherwise I'm looking at Adam Campbell. Seriously.

[Stu]

However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

Is this based on anything more than a figment of your imagination?

 

Post-Ramadan goals scored by our strike 'pairing'...

 

Ba + Best/Shola

WBA: 2

Swansea: 0

Norwich: 2

Everton: 0

Stoke: 3

Wigan: 0

Spurs: 2

Wolves: 1

Blackburn: 3

Villa: 1

QPR: 0

 

Ba+HBA

Chelsea: 0

Man Utd: 1

Man City: 0

Blackburn: 0

 

Nothing scientific by a long shot, but it's more than plausible that the extra 'big unit' up front creates a bit of extra space for Ba to work his magic.

[johnnypd]

far from helping Ba i actually think Best's presence has actively damaged our attacking prospects in the past couple of games. Not necessarily his fault, as i think it's got more to do with Pardew's crap tactic of attempting to use Best as a target man, even though his strength and aerial ability amount to fuck all most of the time. instead of trying to build attacks and keep possession we're hoying long diagonal passes into the box or letting jonas and obertan float these awful slow lofted crosses to no one in particular. the former never turn into anything we can work with, and the latter have only proved marginally dangerous due to Ba's ability to turn on the ball and get a shot in when working with scraps. In terms of a working relationship he seems to have far more of a creative rapport with Ben Arfa.

[80]

I think playing best encourages possession slightly, as we're more likely to make it stick upfront.

 

But we've seen in the last couple games its provided little penetration of defences as our wingers cannot cross it adequately. The one time we got through was vuckics through ball to Ba, it was all infront of them bar that. Similarly at Swansea unless Ba produced individual magic.

 

Ben Arfa is the type that can jink his way through instead. We'll probably keep it less, but be more dangerous on the attack as West brom were to us.

 

Precisely - that's why even if he could operate up front next to a dedicated marker, I see him as someone we'll normally get the best out of with a defence in front of him. More of a dribble and pass player than a sprint and shooter.