Guest TCD23 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 How about the German league? Much tougher defenses for starters and besides he's never achieved anything at an international level, and never won a major trophy at international level, not even the Copa America so yeah not exactly proven on the international stage and as said he hasn't played outside of Spain. Besides he is the greatest of this generation I agree wholeheartedly but all I stated was that he hasn't proven himself in a different league or on the international level thus it's hard to judge him on such a scale as the greats (by which I mean he is up there but we can't really say how he would cope in Germany for example). Jesus you'd think I'd stated that he was worse than Shola. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 How about the German league? Much tougher defenses for starters and besides he's never achieved anything at an international level, and never won a major trophy at international level, not even the Copa America so yeah not exactly proven on the international stage and as said he hasn't played outside of Spain. Besides he is the greatest of this generation I agree wholeheartedly but all I stated was that he hasn't proven himself in a different league or on the international level thus it's hard to judge him on such a scale as the greats (by which I mean he is up there but we can't really say how he would cope in Germany for example). Jesus you'd think I'd stated that he was worse than Shola. Tougher defences in Bundesliga? Don't agree. Lest not forget he hit 6 goals in 2 games against Leverkusen last year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Bundesliga defences are pretty lifting on the whole. Even the best 2 (in theory) Dortmund and Bayern leak a lot of goals in Europe and Germany NT leaks goals a lot too. Bundesliga teams go for the outscoring method rather than tight defending IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roy the Irish Magpie Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Anyone who doesn't agree he's the greatest ever needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Shut the fuck up with this 'tougher league' non sense. The greatest stage is the champions league and we all know he has left that with a bruised anus time and time again. International performance do mean go on about the fact he's never won a world cup or anything. You cannot argue against his permanences goal wise. See this is another thing I don't get, what is it about winning a World Cup that would change his ability? Winning a World Cup is a team effort not an individual competition, the likes of a George Best never even played in a major international competition let alone win a world cup and this never changed his ability or how people thought of him. Deciding who the best player in the world or of all time is based on ability though? that is all I'm saying to people who mention he needs a world cup first?? Another fact for ye, Messi was actually offered Spanish nationality before he was capped for Argentina so he could have well taken the easy root to so called competitions apparently people need to win to prove themselves??? A mate of mine (also clueless when it come to footy) argued that truly exceptional players have dragged their mediocre team mates to world cups and used Maradona, Pele Zidane as examples. Maradonna, Pele and Zidane all played in world class national sides to say they were mediocre I 100% do not agree with. I see the whole Messi needs to win a World Cup before he is recognized as a great as just a daft comment to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 How about the German league? Much tougher defenses for starters and besides he's never achieved anything at an international level, and never won a major trophy at international level, not even the Copa America so yeah not exactly proven on the international stage and as said he hasn't played outside of Spain. Besides he is the greatest of this generation I agree wholeheartedly but all I stated was that he hasn't proven himself in a different league or on the international level thus it's hard to judge him on such a scale as the greats (by which I mean he is up there but we can't really say how he would cope in Germany for example). Jesus you'd think I'd stated that he was worse than Shola. So who is the greatest? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Wait Pele had mediocre team mates? Pls he had some of the best players of all time alongside him in every one of his WC victories. Zidane didn't carry shit, in 98 he was suspended for half the tournament.... Zidane's real shining light was Euro 2000 were he was f*cking outstanding but even so he didn't carry anything. Maradona is the closest thing to carrying but even so he still had good-great players around him, the whole carrying thing is a myth you can't win things on your own you just can't. Not going to go whose the best because its been tirelessly discussed for too long but i do enjoy laughing at some of these myths. Also about Maradona before that WC in 86 a lot of people say that Zico and Platini were better so he wasn't dominant like Messi or Pele was tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Obviously the Getafe goal and Espanyol hand of god weren't enough. http://s2.glbimg.com/QlkGXDjXF8ptRTjXv51Ap4FP5OIjpxQo1gGx2blsLL9M3Gl9CW9aTvl0EA1iiqra/s.glbimg.com/es/ge/f/original/2013/01/07/messi-iniesta-cristianoronaldo-afp5.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Maradona's looks like a onesie. The shirt and tie, too. Legend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Thing is if he never scored but just passed it he'd still make every team in the world. Astonishing player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TCD23 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 The greatest stage is blatantly the World Cup, you know the world's biggest single sporting even and Messi hasn't performed at any of them. It's also ludicrous to say anybody is the greatest ever at anything especially in football, what is Messi the best Goalkeeper as well? Or aren't goalkeepers footballers either? Football has changed so much even in the past ten years that you can't really rate him against the likes of Pele. Greatest of his generation sure, but greatest ever? Well it's impossible for anybody to be the greatest but he still hasn't won a World Cup or international tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I agree it's impossible to compare between eras and a little pointless. I don't agree he hasn't performed at world cup either, granted didn't look quite his usual self but seemed to be playing deeper and being more a playmaker than what he is at Barca. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 When you dominate the club scene for as long as he has the WC means very little tbh. Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. Messi has dominated the club scene for half a decade and has no sign of slowing up, very few in history have done that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TCD23 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 When you dominate the club scene for as long as he has the WC means very little tbh. Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. Messi has dominated the club scene for half a decade and has no sign of slowing up, very few in history have done that. Such as.....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. ?? What are you on about? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Most of the players you could mention needed the WC on their resume because their club form wasn't that good. ?? What are you on about? Zidane, Maradona etc etc didn't dominate the club scene the way Messi has, when i said not very good i meant in comparison. Of course their performances at international level helped springboard them well above what their club performances had put them at but Messi doesn't need it in the same fashion because he has dominated since he was a kid. Pele is really the only one who is dominated in a similar fashion, i suppose you could make arguments for Cruyff and Di Stefano too but i don't believe Messi needs a WC because of such domination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VanBarduck Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 the answer is in the title ... God I hate that midget , since Abidal said that "ben arfa was as the same level as messi when they were both 18 years old" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Can I post this since it's animation not actual football clips. Plus it's Adidas official account... 2012 FIFA World Player of the Year: adidas celebrates Leo Messi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think the WC win in 86 was in some part a testament to Maradona's freakish dominance... Argentina weren't a bad side but they weren't great either and it was Maradona who made the difference time and time again. Similarly, Baggio managing to pop up every time his knackered, uninspired Italy teammates needed him in 94 could've been interpreted as in some way an individual victory. Those two are as close to 'carrying' a team to victory as you'll get. In Maradona's case you have to look at his achievement at Napoli too. He clearly was a player who could lift a team by sheer individual dominance, and not just over the course of a summer tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Also worth pointing out that for Messi to have inspired Argentina to the World Cup, with Maradona as his manager and Jonas at right back, in that totally unbalanced side, would've been an achievement to tower above just about anything ever achieved at a World Cup. I don't think he's had a particularly fair crack at it yet but there's a World Cup coming up in Brazil that might just have his name on it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 only problem i see with that is he's been play what 60+ games every season now for 4-5 seasons...he's gonna break down eventually like, hopefully it's not then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think the WC win in 86 was in some part a testament to Maradona's freakish dominance... Argentina weren't a bad side but they weren't great either and it was Maradona who made the difference time and time again. Similarly, Baggio managing to pop up every time his knackered, uninspired Italy teammates needed him in 94 could've been interpreted as in some way an individual victory. Those two are as close to 'carrying' a team to victory as you'll get. In Maradona's case you have to look at his achievement at Napoli too. He clearly was a player who could lift a team by sheer individual dominance, and not just over the course of a summer tournament. http://www.jogodearea.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/garrincha-brasil.jpg The little bird disagrees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think the WC win in 86 was in some part a testament to Maradona's freakish dominance... Argentina weren't a bad side but they weren't great either and it was Maradona who made the difference time and time again. Similarly, Baggio managing to pop up every time his knackered, uninspired Italy teammates needed him in 94 could've been interpreted as in some way an individual victory. Those two are as close to 'carrying' a team to victory as you'll get. In Maradona's case you have to look at his achievement at Napoli too. He clearly was a player who could lift a team by sheer individual dominance, and not just over the course of a summer tournament. Of course but when its brought up people act like he was a one man band and he was surrounded by garbage which is rubbish honestly, same goes with Napoli he was obviously the difference maker but lets not act like he was surrounded by Wigan level players and took them to glory. (not aimed at you btw but the general consensus) Also worth pointing out that for Messi to have inspired Argentina to the World Cup, with Maradona as his manager and Jonas at right back, in that totally unbalanced side, would've been an achievement to tower above just about anything ever achieved at a World Cup. I don't think he's had a particularly fair crack at it yet but there's a World Cup coming up in Brazil that might just have his name on it Completely agree, i also think they have a chance in 2014 not only is Messi improving for Argentina but the team as a whole is( think they were unbeaten in 2012?) if they can continue to improve they definitely have a chance but as i have said before IMO Messi doesn't need a WC because of his domination at club level. Also i don't agree Garrincha carried Brazil in 58 they had great players like Djalma Santos, Didi, Nilton Santos, Pele( i know he was a kid but he was still great) etc etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think the WC win in 86 was in some part a testament to Maradona's freakish dominance... Argentina weren't a bad side but they weren't great either and it was Maradona who made the difference time and time again. Similarly, Baggio managing to pop up every time his knackered, uninspired Italy teammates needed him in 94 could've been interpreted as in some way an individual victory. Those two are as close to 'carrying' a team to victory as you'll get. In Maradona's case you have to look at his achievement at Napoli too. He clearly was a player who could lift a team by sheer individual dominance, and not just over the course of a summer tournament. Of course but when its brought up people act like he was a one man band and he was surrounded by garbage which is rubbish honestly, same goes with Napoli he was obviously the difference maker but lets not act like he was surrounded by Wigan level players and took them to glory. (not aimed at you btw but the general consensus) Also worth pointing out that for Messi to have inspired Argentina to the World Cup, with Maradona as his manager and Jonas at right back, in that totally unbalanced side, would've been an achievement to tower above just about anything ever achieved at a World Cup. I don't think he's had a particularly fair crack at it yet but there's a World Cup coming up in Brazil that might just have his name on it Completely agree, i also think they have a chance in 2014 not only is Messi improving for Argentina but the team as a whole is( think they were unbeaten in 2012?) if they can continue to improve they definitely have a chance but as i have said before IMO Messi doesn't need a WC because of his domination at club level. Also i don't agree Garrincha carried Brazil in 58 they had great players like Djalma Santos, Didi, Nilton Santos, Pele( i know he was a kid but he was still great) etc etc. Garrincha didn't in '58. It was '62 which was regarded as his tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Ah thought you was talking about 58, my bad. I have never got round to watching any of 62 so i can't say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Four-time Ballon d'Or winner Lionel Messi says the one thing missing from his trophy cabinet is the World Cup, claiming he would swap his personal awards for success at national team level. Messi claimed his most recent accolade this week, capping a stunning year which saw him score a record 91 goals in 2012. However, with the World Cup in neighbouring Brazil looming, the Argentina forward has declared his focus is now on winning the world's biggest international tournament in 2014. "Winning the World Cup is what is missing. The truth is, yes, I would swap a Ballon d'Or for the World Cup, I've always felt like that. Nothing compares with being world champion. "I want to achieve things with Barcelona and with my country, which I've always said is my dream," Messi is quoted as saying in The Sun. Messi has garnered comparisons to compatriot Diego Maradona, who led Argentina to their last World Cup triumph in 1986. The 25-year-old insists such expectations - including criticism of his performances for La Albiceleste - in his homeland do not weigh on his mind, as Alejandro Sabella's men currently sit atop the South American standings for 2014 qualification. "It makes me so happy that many important people talk well of me," he explained. "Each year my objective is to grow, not to stay with what I have. As for what I don't know, I want to try and learn and get better. "Last year I was welcomed back home in a spectacular way because the people are now behind the national team. It had been a long time that this chemistry had been lost and I am happy we finished the year so well. "We are working hard to give the people of Argentina the best, and many joys. Today, you can see the unity. That makes Argentina stronger. "To see people talking well of the national team is different to see criticism from everywhere before you even set foot back. That hurts." http://memecrunch.com/meme/249T/then-messi-said/image.png Probleme? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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