madras Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 timeEd What you dont seem to grasp is that football has developed in a way to help players more. Protection from referee, balls that is harder for the goalies to defend, better pitches, shoes that are made for a player to maximize and optimize his ability on the pitch. If Pele and Messi were born at the same time, I think for sure Pele would be the better player based on pure talent, on pure domination and sheer intelligence on the pitch (man is a moron outside of it). You have to compare every era, and Pele was much further ahead of his competition than Messi is of his. Topics like this always amuse me when I dip in to read, it's like some people feel the urge to try to convince those that cannot be swayed. Personally, I am well informed on the subject past and present, and it's my opinion that he is the best footballer in the world right now, and almost up there with Pelé - you simply cannot refute the fact that in nowadays football he is protected to such a huge degree, and the method of his style of play is tailored to that protection. I'm not saying he couldn't cope back in Pelé's era, he'd be a fantastic player still, as is evidenced by the numerous youtube videos of Messi refusing to fall over when fouled and just continuing with play, but it was a different level of physicality in the 60's. Perhaps people just like to argue against the established opinion when a new idea comes along, a healthy rebellion-fueled debate as it were. I'd like to see Messi truely carry a team that he doesn't play regularly for - Maradona with Napoli and Agentina for example - rather than win a WC, which can be down to so many more factors that just one person's outstanding ability. He wont leave Barcelona so he has to carry Argentina, which he wont, but he could at least try and make them a decent team. If he played against our defence atm, he'd struggle to score less than 54 in a game. it's hard to compare at the best of times but even harder when talking about differing eras. for what it's worth i think of the greats, only pele, cruyff, beckenbauer and bobby charlton would have been able to trtanscend the eras. i don't think george best would have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliGupter Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pele wasn't as dominant in his era as Messi is now, maybe domestically against Brazilian pub teams, but he always had the likes of Garrincha and Eusebio up there with him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 timeEd What you dont seem to grasp is that football has developed in a way to help players more. Protection from referee, balls that is harder for the goalies to defend, better pitches, shoes that are made for a player to maximize and optimize his ability on the pitch. If Pele and Messi were born at the same time, I think for sure Pele would be the better player based on pure talent, on pure domination and sheer intelligence on the pitch (man is a moron outside of it). You have to compare every era, and Pele was much further ahead of his competition than Messi is of his. Topics like this always amuse me when I dip in to read, it's like some people feel the urge to try to convince those that cannot be swayed. Personally, I am well informed on the subject past and present, and it's my opinion that he is the best footballer in the world right now, and almost up there with Pelé - you simply cannot refute the fact that in nowadays football he is protected to such a huge degree, and the method of his style of play is tailored to that protection. I'm not saying he couldn't cope back in Pelé's era, he'd be a fantastic player still, as is evidenced by the numerous youtube videos of Messi refusing to fall over when fouled and just continuing with play, but it was a different level of physicality in the 60's. Perhaps people just like to argue against the established opinion when a new idea comes along, a healthy rebellion-fueled debate as it were. I'd like to see Messi truely carry a team that he doesn't play regularly for - Maradona with Napoli and Agentina for example - rather than win a WC, which can be down to so many more factors that just one person's outstanding ability. He wont leave Barcelona so he has to carry Argentina, which he wont, but he could at least try and make them a decent team. If he played against our defence atm, he'd struggle to score less than 54 in a game. Not sure what I said to give you the impression I don't understand all those things. My comment to the bolded part probably should have included a as well. I think it's nearly impossible to compare players from different eras in any sport. It's always fun to debate and good points can be made on either side, but in the end everyone has their own opinion on what matters and what doesn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pele wasn't as dominant in his era as Messi is now, maybe domestically against Brazilian pub teams, but he always had the likes of Garrincha and Eusebio up there with him. Call it pub teams and then mentions Garrincha who played for one of these pub teams. And then forgets he still won three World Cups that he played in which at the time was the biggest you could win (still is imo but many think CL). Shouldve been every year and he wouldve won it 10 times. Oh and Pele went to play Eusebio and his Benfica (classed as one of the best teams in Europe of all time) and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games while Eusebio managed 1. One year before he went to San Siro and played Maldini and trappatonis European Champions and scored twice. Both times he won the Intercontinental Cup. Also these pub teams youre talking about that he played against, Penarol, Independiente and these were the teams that bummed all of the European teams in the early 60s in Intercontinental Cups. People underestimate the size of South American league football, just because it aint as strong today as it used to be. Pubteams you mention were the best team in the World, and Pele was the greatest of them all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 timeEd What you dont seem to grasp is that football has developed in a way to help players more. Protection from referee, balls that is harder for the goalies to defend, better pitches, shoes that are made for a player to maximize and optimize his ability on the pitch. If Pele and Messi were born at the same time, I think for sure Pele would be the better player based on pure talent, on pure domination and sheer intelligence on the pitch (man is a moron outside of it). You have to compare every era, and Pele was much further ahead of his competition than Messi is of his. Topics like this always amuse me when I dip in to read, it's like some people feel the urge to try to convince those that cannot be swayed. Personally, I am well informed on the subject past and present, and it's my opinion that he is the best footballer in the world right now, and almost up there with Pelé - you simply cannot refute the fact that in nowadays football he is protected to such a huge degree, and the method of his style of play is tailored to that protection. I'm not saying he couldn't cope back in Pelé's era, he'd be a fantastic player still, as is evidenced by the numerous youtube videos of Messi refusing to fall over when fouled and just continuing with play, but it was a different level of physicality in the 60's. Perhaps people just like to argue against the established opinion when a new idea comes along, a healthy rebellion-fueled debate as it were. I'd like to see Messi truely carry a team that he doesn't play regularly for - Maradona with Napoli and Agentina for example - rather than win a WC, which can be down to so many more factors that just one person's outstanding ability. He wont leave Barcelona so he has to carry Argentina, which he wont, but he could at least try and make them a decent team. If he played against our defence atm, he'd struggle to score less than 54 in a game. Not sure what I said to give you the impression I don't understand all those things. My comment to the bolded part probably should have included a as well. I think it's nearly impossible to compare players from different eras in any sport. It's always fun to debate and good points can be made on either side, but in the end everyone has their own opinion on what matters and what doesn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliGupter Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pele wasn't as dominant in his era as Messi is now, maybe domestically against Brazilian pub teams, but he always had the likes of Garrincha and Eusebio up there with him. Call it pub teams and then mentions Garrincha who played for one of these pub teams. And then forgets he still won three World Cups that he played in which at the time was the biggest you could win (still is imo but many think CL). Shouldve been every year and he wouldve won it 10 times. Oh and Pele went to play Eusebio and his Benfica (classed as one of the best teams in Europe of all time) and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games while Eusebio managed 1. One year before he went to San Siro and played Maldini and trappatonis European Champions and scored twice. Both times he won the Intercontinental Cup. Also these pub teams youre talking about that he played against, Penarol, Independiente and these were the teams that bummed all of the European teams in the early 60s in Intercontinental Cups. People underestimate the size of South American league football, just because it aint as strong today as it used to be. Pubteams you mention were the best team in the World, and Pele was the greatest of them all. I don't know why you're saying all this, Garrincha and Eusebio were considered up there with Pele for many years, no one has been considered up there with Messi, maybe someone will come along, who knows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pele wasn't as dominant in his era as Messi is now, maybe domestically against Brazilian pub teams, but he always had the likes of Garrincha and Eusebio up there with him. Call it pub teams and then mentions Garrincha who played for one of these pub teams. And then forgets he still won three World Cups that he played in which at the time was the biggest you could win (still is imo but many think CL). Shouldve been every year and he wouldve won it 10 times. Oh and Pele went to play Eusebio and his Benfica (classed as one of the best teams in Europe of all time) and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games while Eusebio managed 1. One year before he went to San Siro and played Maldini and trappatonis European Champions and scored twice. Both times he won the Intercontinental Cup. Also these pub teams youre talking about that he played against, Penarol, Independiente and these were the teams that bummed all of the European teams in the early 60s in Intercontinental Cups. People underestimate the size of South American league football, just because it aint as strong today as it used to be. Pubteams you mention were the best team in the World, and Pele was the greatest of them all. I don't know why you're saying all this, Garrincha and Eusebio were considered up there with Pele for many years, no one has been considered up there with Messi, maybe someone will come along, who knows. Because, CRonaldo, Iniesta, Xavi, RVP etc. are all there man. Pele was so much ahead of the others its crazy. Garrincha 2nd best player at the time was uncomparable to Pele. Pele went and scored three against them in the Libertadores when Botafogo had players such as Zagallo, Garrincha, Nilton Santos, Jairzinho. It would be like Messi beating a team consisting of CRonaldo, David Silva, Iniesta, RVP and himself playing with Danny Simpson, Mike Williamson and so on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foluwashola Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 How can people in their 20s even begin to compare Messi to players from the 60s? Surely we can only claim a certain player is the best we've ever seen in our generation and , for the majority of us, that has to be Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pele wasn't as dominant in his era as Messi is now, maybe domestically against Brazilian pub teams, but he always had the likes of Garrincha and Eusebio up there with him. Call it pub teams and then mentions Garrincha who played for one of these pub teams. And then forgets he still won three World Cups that he played in which at the time was the biggest you could win (still is imo but many think CL). Shouldve been every year and he wouldve won it 10 times. Oh and Pele went to play Eusebio and his Benfica (classed as one of the best teams in Europe of all time) and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games while Eusebio managed 1. One year before he went to San Siro and played Maldini and trappatonis European Champions and scored twice. Both times he won the Intercontinental Cup. Also these pub teams youre talking about that he played against, Penarol, Independiente and these were the teams that bummed all of the European teams in the early 60s in Intercontinental Cups. People underestimate the size of South American league football, just because it aint as strong today as it used to be. Pubteams you mention were the best team in the World, and Pele was the greatest of them all. I don't know why you're saying all this, Garrincha and Eusebio were considered up there with Pele for many years, no one has been considered up there with Messi, maybe someone will come along, who knows. To be honest I think the rose tinted glasses from which people view Pele owe a lot to BRANDING. Some people are crazy, ''no matter what nobody can be better the Pele, I'm not listening etc etc'' Give me Cruyff over Pele anyday, his effect was all over the pitch, in the mind & you can see it in the way Barcelona & Span play. Not just Pele scoring 7 past a few Brazilian's who are barley pros,. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 How can people in their 20s even begin to compare Messi to players from the 60s? Surely we can only claim a certain player is the best we've ever seen in our generation and , for the majority of us, that has to be Messi. Whole match footages from back then do exist you know? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pelé was shite. Wouldn't get a game for the Heed if he was about today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pelé was s****. Wouldn't get a game for the Heed if he was about today. And Foluwashola, your statement is ridiculous, its a bit like saying we cant discuss WWII because no one was there to experience it. Bunch of book written about it and match videos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foluwashola Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pelé was s****. Wouldn't get a game for the Heed if he was about today. And Foluwashola, your statement is ridiculous, its a bit like saying we cant discuss WWII because no one was there to experience it. Bunch of book written about it and match videos. What? Didn't say you can't discuss Pele, it is simply ridiculous to compare him to Messi. I'm sure many match videos do exist, but have the many people who get involved in shite playground arguments like this realistically watched hundreds of black & white videos? I doubt it. I realise you see yourself as some sort of Brazilian, but let the past go bro. Let Lucas Leiva usher in the new generation of Brazilian domination Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pelé was s****. Wouldn't get a game for the Heed if he was about today. And Foluwashola, your statement is ridiculous, its a bit like saying we cant discuss WWII because no one was there to experience it. Bunch of book written about it and match videos. What? Didn't say you can't discuss Pele, it is simply ridiculous to compare him to Messi. I'm sure many match videos do exist, but have the many people who get involved in s**** playground arguments like this realistically watched hundreds of black & white videos? I doubt it. I realise you see yourself as some sort of Brazilian, but let the past go bro. Let Lucas Leiva usher in the new generation of Brazilian domination Some sort of Brazilian Im born in Europe but whole family is from Brazil and Im a Brazilian citizen man . And Lucas Leiva gives me nightmares, and I struggle to understand why Liverpool supporters thinks hes good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 "some sort of Brazilian" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Felipao is forgetting about Didi BTW i do agree with the notion that you can watch full games of players from the 50s and 60s but theres nothing like watching each and every game live through out someones career. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest je85 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pelé was s****. Wouldn't get a game for the Heed if he was about today. And Foluwashola, your statement is ridiculous, its a bit like saying we cant discuss WWII because no one was there to experience it. Bunch of book written about it and match videos. What? Didn't say you can't discuss Pele, it is simply ridiculous to compare him to Messi. I'm sure many match videos do exist, but have the many people who get involved in s**** playground arguments like this realistically watched hundreds of black & white videos? I doubt it. I realise you see yourself as some sort of Brazilian, but let the past go bro. Let Lucas Leiva usher in the new generation of Brazilian domination Some sort of Brazilian Im born in Europe but whole family is from Brazil and Im a Brazilian citizen man . And Lucas Leiva gives me nightmares, and I struggle to understand why Liverpool supporters thinks hes good. Lucas is generally my acid test for judging someone's football knowledge. Comparisons like this are always pretty pointless, the game has changed too much to make fair comparisons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Stoke. On a wet Thursday night. Do it. Seriously though, imo the one thing you can't deny is that, at this current point in time, Messi is the best player in the world. Sure, you have your CR7s and Xavis/Iniestas but Messi most definitely stands out as the best. Everything about his play is just world class and is pretty much unrivaled at the moment. People can debate all they want on where he ranks amongst the past greats - different opinions will bound to come about. 24 years old, 234 goals. What an achievement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Look at some of the assists he gets as well, class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Stoke. On a wet Thursday night. Do it. Seriously though, imo the one thing you can't deny is that, at this current point in time, Messi is the best player in the world. Sure, you have your CR7s and Xavis/Iniestas but Messi most definitely stands out as the best. Everything about his play is just world class and is pretty much unrivaled at the moment. People can debate all they want on where he ranks amongst the past greats - different opinions will bound to come about. 24 years old, 234 goals. What an achievement. Oh yeah, there is no doubt of who is the better player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 2nd or maybe 3rd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Look at some of the assists he gets as well, class. His vision and passing is unreal, with his goalscoring as well he is like 2 world class players rolled into one. Take away the bulk of his goals and he is still world class with the number of killer assists he gets Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pele wasn't as dominant in his era as Messi is now, maybe domestically against Brazilian pub teams, but he always had the likes of Garrincha and Eusebio up there with him. Call it pub teams and then mentions Garrincha who played for one of these pub teams. And then forgets he still won three World Cups that he played in which at the time was the biggest you could win (still is imo but many think CL). Shouldve been every year and he wouldve won it 10 times. Oh and Pele went to play Eusebio and his Benfica (classed as one of the best teams in Europe of all time) and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games while Eusebio managed 1. One year before he went to San Siro and played Maldini and trappatonis European Champions and scored twice. Both times he won the Intercontinental Cup. Also these pub teams youre talking about that he played against, Penarol, Independiente and these were the teams that bummed all of the European teams in the early 60s in Intercontinental Cups. People underestimate the size of South American league football, just because it aint as strong today as it used to be. Pubteams you mention were the best team in the World, and Pele was the greatest of them all. I don't know why you're saying all this, Garrincha and Eusebio were considered up there with Pele for many years, no one has been considered up there with Messi, maybe someone will come along, who knows. Because, CRonaldo, Iniesta, Xavi, RVP etc. are all there man. Pele was so much ahead of the others its crazy. Garrincha 2nd best player at the time was uncomparable to Pele. Pele went and scored three against them in the Libertadores when Botafogo had players such as Zagallo, Garrincha, Nilton Santos, Jairzinho. It would be like Messi beating a team consisting of CRonaldo, David Silva, Iniesta, RVP and himself playing with Danny Simpson, Mike Williamson and so on. I refuse to believe the Brazilian league had players like Simpson and Williamson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEEJ Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 How old are you Felipao? I just don't get this staunch defence of a bloke who played before the majority of the people discussing him here were born. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Look at some of the assists he gets as well, class. His vision and passing is unreal, with his goalscoring as well he is like 2 world class players rolled into one. Take away the bulk of his goals and he is still world class with the number of killer assists he gets To be fair, he gets a lot of assists because his teammates have been brought up with an ideal which means they move intelligently and are always in space, so it's not all necessarily down to his vision and ability. Considering the majority of the attacking play runs through him in the final third, it's not really a surprise he has so much productivity in that area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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