Beren Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 That's about as close to a meltdown as N-O has, right there. Messi defending Messi's honour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Don't buy the "needs to move clubs" stuff. Just watch him play football. He is the best. Funny how no one uses this shite for other greats like Maldini and Xavi. It's just a pathetic argument made up by Ronaldo fan boys who are trying to use Messi's loyalty as a negative thing because they just can't enjoy watching both players and admit who is better. It's really quite sad. He loves the club and he wouldn't be where he is today only for Barcelona and has spearheaded them into arguably the best club team of all time. But aye, he should walk away from all this and take about an 80% pay cut and go to Mallorca just to prove something to a bunch of huffy kids. Although quite a grumpy post, it's on the money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 That's about as close to a meltdown as N-O has, right there. Messi defending Messi's honour It's not a meltdown at at all. My point is everyone should just enjoy watching both players as they're gonna be the 2 best of our lifetime, and it's just stupid the arguments people will create just to try and prove who's better. Anyone who watches football knows who the better player is, admitting it won't make Ronaldo any less brilliant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 MELTDOWN CONFIRMED Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Don't buy the "needs to move clubs" stuff. Just watch him play football. He is the best. Funny how no one uses this s**** for other greats like Maldini and Xavi. It's just a pathetic argument made up by Ronaldo fan boys who are trying to use Messi's loyalty as a negative thing because they just can't enjoy watching both players and admit who is better. It's really quite sad. He loves the club and he wouldn't be where he is today only for Barcelona and has spearheaded them into arguably the best club team of all time. But aye, he should walk away from all this and take about an 80% pay cut and go to Mallorca just to prove something to a bunch of huffy kids. What absolute garbage. Nobody is contending players like Maldini and Xavi are the best football player ever spanning more than 50 years of football. If Messi wants to be known as the Maldini of his generation, that he has already done that. But for him to be the best player ever and eclipse the likes of Pele, Maradona and Zidane, he does have to prove that he can be great even without his Barcelona mates who are amongst the best in the world either with Argetina or another club team. His loyalty to Barcelona is absolutely fine and to a certain extent to be admired, no he doesn't have to leave Barca to join Mallorca just to prove a point but until he can show that he can excel without Barcelona, surely some of us who don't worship his farts are entitled to say that great as he may be, it's not conclusive that he is the best ever, at least not yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I forgot that Pele, who many regard as the greatest ever, bounced around different leagues proving he could do it anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmonkey Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Needs to perform impressively for Argentina in a World Cup to undeniably rank #1 - doesn't have to "win" a World Cup single handedly, though it'd help. Just needs to run the show and look as immense as he does for Barca (most of the time - still think Iniesta tends to stand out more in the big CL games). It's not a difficult concept to understand - he'll be the best player ever if he's able to replicate his club form on the international stage. Why? Because that's what the players he's being compared to have done in the past. And for me, international football, specifically the latter stages of the World Cup, is easily the highest level in the sport. The pressure is higher, the dream of winning is bigger (increased effort and motivation), the window to perform is smaller (don't get to wipe the slate clean every year), the good teams are seemingly better organised with greater depth and fewer weaknesses (no budget limitations), the best attacking players are marked tighter and crowded out more, etc etc. If a player is in peak form for his club, and has been for years, then goes into a major international tournament like the World Cup and performs poorly, then it's difficult to not count this against him. Raul would be a prime example of this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tyson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The 86 Argies, and Napoli were workmanlike sides. With respect to the Argies - Really solid defensively, as a team though didn't have Brazil's overall brilliance going forward, but Maradona tipped them over the edge when a big-moment was called for. On the international stage the 2010 WC Uruguay side is a decent comparison to what Argentina achieved in 86 and 90, with Forlan & Suarez forming a nucleus of brilliance uptop. Uruguay were a well organised, tough to break down, and they weren't flashy like the Argies and Brazil. They were a disciplined, counterattacking unit. However Forlan & Suarez (when he wasn't licking his wounds from the dug-out ie. suspension) carried them to the last 4, and very nearly a final. The dynamics of the transfer market today puts the brakes on a Messi-to-a'smaller club' scenario, hence it was put in the unlikely basket originally. The only thing that would instigate a move (at least domestically) would be if a Real president, or nominee running for the top job, used his possible signing as a bargaining tool to for election/re-election. It's happened before, as a model for snapping up Barca's best players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tyson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 BTW the comparison of Napoli>>Wigan is unfair, and took my original post out of context. R.Mallorca have been respectable performers in Spain, for nigh on 15 years too ie. some high-table finishes mixed in with alot of mid-table stuff. But they're outsiders, punching above their weight. Neapolitans, geographically and socially, have always been marginalised in Italy. Naples is an outpost city, at least in the eyes of it's Northern counterparts. And there's a flow-on effect to the football arena as well, where they always played second fiddle to the giants of Rome & Milan. The mentality of 'Us vs The Rest of Italy' is an everpresent down there. Maradona summed it up perfectly ages ago, when asking 'why should Neapolitans feel morally obliged to support their national team?'. Napoli fits the billing of a football outpost IMHO, always has & always will. Put's into perspective of what they gradually buillt & achieved in the mid-late 80's, after nearly being relegated the year before Maradona's arrival. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I forgot that Pele, who many regard as the greatest ever, bounced around different leagues proving he could do it anywhere. Thanks for missing the point completely. The whole do well in another club or lead the international team to success is being taken too literally by Messi's fan brigade. The point is that to be considered the world's best, you need to be able to prove that you can excel under different sets of circumstances so that the individuality of the achievement can be separated from the group/team. In the case of Messi, the question that remains unanswered is whether he can excel when he does not have Barcelona's midfield (particularly the likes of Xavi and Iniesta who are rightly considered amongst the best of their generation) behind him. Players like Pele, Maradona, Zidane...etc have proven that they can excel under different circumstances, team mates, league style, football philosophy...etc. Whether this is proven through replicating their club form at the international level or through excellence at different clubs in different leagues is secondary and immaterial. The point remains that Messi has neither excelled for Argentina nor shown that he can replicate his Barcelona form with a different club. It's simple really, Messi is already amongst the best, but to be the best ever, he has to prove one of the above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guinness_fiend Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Some of the arguments in this thread confuse the hell out of me. Does Messi need to play for different teams to prove himself? Given that he routinely dominates the best teams in Europe whenever he plays in the Champions League, both in assists and goals, I would say not. He is on course for beating Raul's scoring record with plenty of years to spare. This is akin to saying that Michael Jordan was overrated because he mostly played for the stand-out team in the NBA. Or that Muhammad Ali was "meh" because he didn't destroy everyone in different weight classes. Does he need to win a world cup? Well, it would be nice, but I have no recollection of any single player being able to polish a turd of a national side. Messi, to date, has been stuck with an underperforming Argentina side. Oddly, he tends to play well for the team personally, but he cannot be expected to win international games on his own consistently. To claim otherwise is just bonkers. The fact is, if he were Spanish, Dutch or German, there is every chance he would have won a major international trophy by now. Pele, by contrast, mostly played in Harlem Globetrotters-esque Brazil teams that took the p*ss out of their opposition (almost in every position). Is he the best footballer ever? Who knows, as it is completely subjective. Players like Pele and Kruyf played in eras where sportsman were not as skilful, quick, athletic etc so not to take anything away from them as they were clearly the best of the bunch at the time, it is like comparing apples with pears. What is clear cut is that Messi is the best (televised) player on the planet at the moment and that Ronaldo, for all of his pomp and flair, is nowhere near as complete a footballer and has demonstrated very little to indicate that he ever will be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I forgot that Pele, who many regard as the greatest ever, bounced around different leagues proving he could do it anywhere. Thanks for missing the point completely. The whole do well in another club or lead the international team to success is being taken too literally by Messi's fan brigade. The point is that to be considered the world's best, you need to be able to prove that you can excel under different sets of circumstances so that the individuality of the achievement can be separated from the group/team. In the case of Messi, the question that remains unanswered is whether he can excel when he does not have Barcelona's midfield (particularly the likes of Xavi and Iniesta who are rightly considered amongst the best of their generation) behind him. Players like Pele, Maradona, Zidane...etc have proven that they can excel under different circumstances, team mates, league style, football philosophy...etc. Whether this is proven through replicating their club form at the international level or through excellence at different clubs in different leagues is secondary and immaterial. The point remains that Messi has neither excelled for Argentina nor shown that he can replicate his Barcelona form with a different club. It's simple really, Messi is already amongst the best, but to be the best ever, he has to prove one of the above. But Pele played with the same team his whole career who were the best team in the country and also with fantastic players in the national team. Nobody uses this as a stick to beat him with. If you don't mean this argument in a literal sense then what do you actually mean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 5th favourites is average now? It is with the best player in the world in the team. A very average England were 5th favourites for the last world cup. Roma i would argue they underperformed they had the players to finish higher imo. Above Milan with Baresi, Maldini, Tassotti, Donadoni? Above Verona with Elkjaer, Rossi, De Agostini? Above Juventus with Platini, Serena, Laudrup, Bonini, Cabrini, Scirea? Above Inter with Ferri, Passarella, Zenga, Tardelli, Rummenigge, Altobelli, Bergomi? Above Sampdoria with Pagliuca, Vierchowod, Briegel, Mancini, Vialli? They did well to finish above Fiorentina who had Baggio, Berti, Gentile and Antognoni. Oh and Maradona joined in 84 not 87. 87 is the year Napoli won the league which is why I chose it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 has anyone seen argentina recently? i won't accept criticism of messi until i see a concerted effort from whoever is in charge to set them up to play a system based on him being fucking mint and the best player in the world whoever is their manager should be looking at the last 2 seasons and see how well that can be replicated with the players at his disposal...the one thing about maradona you knew he was their star, the rest of the team knew it as well, but messi is playing at the same time as aguero, tevez, higuain, lavezzi plus whoever else and i always feel they have no idea what to do with them all if they build a system around messi and he's fit they'll be virtually unstoppable, if they don't he's off the hook imo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I forgot that Pele, who many regard as the greatest ever, bounced around different leagues proving he could do it anywhere. Thanks for missing the point completely. The whole do well in another club or lead the international team to success is being taken too literally by Messi's fan brigade. The point is that to be considered the world's best, you need to be able to prove that you can excel under different sets of circumstances so that the individuality of the achievement can be separated from the group/team. In the case of Messi, the question that remains unanswered is whether he can excel when he does not have Barcelona's midfield (particularly the likes of Xavi and Iniesta who are rightly considered amongst the best of their generation) behind him. Players like Pele, Maradona, Zidane...etc have proven that they can excel under different circumstances, team mates, league style, football philosophy...etc. Whether this is proven through replicating their club form at the international level or through excellence at different clubs in different leagues is secondary and immaterial. The point remains that Messi has neither excelled for Argentina nor shown that he can replicate his Barcelona form with a different club. It's simple really, Messi is already amongst the best, but to be the best ever, he has to prove one of the above. Exactly. He doesn't need to leave Barca but he needs to show why he should be considered the best player ever in an Argentina shirt at least, because all the players he will be compared with did it for both club and country. When he retires the World Cup flops will be at the forefront of people's minds, quarter finals against Leverkusen and domestic games against Atletico Gonorrhea won't. It will effect his legacy. He had the most shots in 2010 and didn't score a goal, so a bit closer to Frank Lampard than the best player ever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think they could have finished above Fiorentina and Verona yes and with some luck above Samp too ( although they were better) Also England were 5th favourites in this country because on the amount of stupid people in this country that lay ridiculous amounts of money on us to me they were far from 5th favourites..... I dont consider Argentina average, thier defence was far from average as was thier forward line the only thing that was average about them was thier midfield and that was what Maradona improved drastically. As for Messi and Argentina i think they should play him in midfield or as the "1" in a 4-2-1-3, thier attacking options are fantastic but thier midfield is rather meh and i think Messi is probably as good as any they have for that role. Zabaleta Garay Coloccini Ansaldi Banega Mascherano Messi Di Maria Higuian/Aguero Lavezzi But i expect them to never use Messi in a role which will lead them to success and ultimately fail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 so a bit closer to Frank Lampard than the best player ever. FFS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/templates/14288.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I saw Neil had posted and expected one of his vintage post dissections. I got Jackie Chan. Dissapointed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammys_Tekkers Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 During my lifetime, I would say Zidane, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo (The real one, not the poncy Portuguese one) were all better than he is. Not sure on where he ranks including the likes of Pele, Maradona etc as I never saw a full match of theirs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I saw Neil had posted and expected one of his vintage post dissections. I got Jackie Chan. Dissapointed. They have to be the right moment. Can't go round dissecting any old post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gggg Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 During my lifetime, I would say Zidane, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo (The real one, not the poncy Portuguese one) were all better than he is. Not sure on where he ranks including the likes of Pele, Maradona etc as I never saw a full match of theirs. Wouldn't put him behind Ronaldinho. He's already peaked for longer at club level and Ronaldinho wasn't the same for Brazil, He was good in a supporting role at 2002 but 2006 was supposed to be his tournament and his chance to cement himself alongside the all time greats and he blew it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistle17 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 2nd, behind James McLean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tyson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Don't buy the "needs to move clubs" stuff. Just watch him play football. He is the best. Funny how no one uses this s**** for other greats like Maldini and Xavi. It's just a pathetic argument made up by Ronaldo fan boys who are trying to use Messi's loyalty as a negative thing because they just can't enjoy watching both players and admit who is better. It's really quite sad. He loves the club and he wouldn't be where he is today only for Barcelona and has spearheaded them into arguably the best club team of all time. But aye, he should walk away from all this and take about an 80% pay cut and go to Mallorca just to prove something to a bunch of huffy kids. Although quite a grumpy post, it's on the money. A defensive load of s****. As for Ronaldo Fanboy assumption, it made me laugh given that most have approached Messi & Maradona argument with a balanced and valid argument, with respect to their legacies. Admittedly one legacy is still being written. FWIW, as a player-for-player comparison, Messi is very much a Maradona throwback. Identical packages really: the whole technical side, they don't look athletic but as ball carriers - quick feet (at pace) & a blessed with a low centre of gravity (they literally bounce/ed of challenges). The Mallorca scenario, was put in the 'would be great but unlikely' basket originally. The dynamics of the today's transfer market is the deciding roadblock, it prevents that career pathway from ever taking place. Taking the 'football outpost' thing out of the equation, Maradona didn't move to Napoli for peanuts either, but despite it's hardships the playing list was in need of an injection of life after their accomplishments in the 70's. How would people feel, to put him alongside Maradona re- league achievements outside of Spain, if a cross-channel move to a big-spending club like Chelsea eventuated? He would be given the playing task of revitalising a club that has not only fallen behind it's nearest rivals on the table, but he'd be the cornerstone of a club experiencing (and in need of) sweeping generational change in the playing list? If he was the focal point and lead a title charge in a scenario like that, away from the football crib he was raised in, i'd place him alongside Maradona. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Did I read that right, someone thinks Zidane and Ronaldinho were better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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